Technical Ignition

[jmb79]

So I'm having problems starting my recently built engine. Engine is turning over but not firing. I have a wasted spark set up and am 99.9% sure that I have wired it up correctly as it was before I dismantled it (see pics). Am I right in assuming that in a wasted spark set up, the distributer has no function?
The coil was working before but I am wonde ring whether to replace this to see if this is the culprit.

Jamie

 

[jmb79]

Forgot to add pics

 

[jmb79]

And coil

 

[El cargador]

i was'nt sure what a wasted spark system was so i had a quick look on the net. basically it looks like the same as the normal system,you would still need a distributor to create and distribute the spark to each plug in your case the distributor cap looks the only difference. i would check the low voltage circuit to make sure you're getting current to the coil. the points gap and if you've changed the cap that current is getting to it and leaving it.

 

[AndrewHarvey]

I found the spark plug adaptor that fits between lead and plug - that shows the spark a great confidence booster- they cost nothing but you know you are getting a spark

 

[Vitesse]

It's a bit difficult to see in the picture of the coil as to what is connected to what?

It should be the blue wire from the ignition to the + terminal on the coil, red wire in your case from - terminal on the coil, to the distributor terminal post where yours is, along with the condensor.

I am not familiar with this type of distributor but it still has points that need setting and needs to be rotated to set the timing as per normal. The only difference really to the standard set up is that it has a dual ignition coil and no rotor arm, so both HT leads will spark at the same time, so you can't get the HT leads mixed up.

I would static time it first by lining up the timing marks on the flywheel and the timing chain housing, switch on the ignition and then rotate the distributor back and forth a little and see if the points are opening and closing and you are getting a spark at that points. Remember to switch off the ignition once you have finished testing or you might burn the coil out.

In a normal setup with a standard distributor and single coil, if you are getting no spark at the points it is usually because you have set the timing 180° out, but I trying to get my head around it but I don't think you can do this with a wasted spark setup????? Anyone else want to confirm if this is correct or not?????

Tony

 

[the hobbler]

Although I have not personally any experience of the 'wasted spark' system, being that it still has point and a condenser (can you fit a 'hall-effect electronic ignition in place of the points and condenser?), I would have thought that you still have to time it so that the spark that you want to use occurs at the correct time---if it doesn't, no go! If it is the normal timing, it is 10 Deg.BTDC (or 14mm)---the only advantage is that you don't have to worry which plug is sparking.

 

[jmb79]

Thanks for all your advice. Spark plug tester ordered. In relation to the wiring on the coil, neither terminals are marked which is useful, but I have a pale green wire going to one of the terminals and on the other a blue wire, and then the red wire from the distributer. I need to have a look to fully investigate where the blue and pale green wires go. From what Tony says, if the blue one is the ignition then it should not be on the same terminal as the wire from the distributer, but this is how it was wired before I dropped the engine.
I was also wondering, as the hobbler has picked up on, whether I can replace the points with an electric spark system but still retain the wasted spark set up or would I need to get a normal coil and new distributer cap?

 

[Bambino]

Hi Jamie,

As far as I know you can replace the points with a Hall effect pickup.

The photo shows a 'wasted spark' rotorless distributor on the left with standard points setup. The distributor on the right is a converted 500 one with the rotor removed to show the detail of the conversion. The baseplates look the same and the distributor bodies are the same diameter.

I'll have some time tomorrow so I'll fit the rotorless distributor with the magnetic pickup and let you know the result.

Chris

 

[Bambino]

It all fits OK.

The one fitted in the picture is an AccuSpark unit and the only problem is the shape of the grommet. The magnetic collar fits snugly and won't need the rotor to hold it in position.

Hot-Spark also make a conversion that has the correct square profile grommet.

http://www.hot-spark.com/1-3MAR2C2L.htm

http://www.accuspark.co.uk/car_search.html

If you do this conversion make sure you use a coil with a primary resistance above 1.4 ohms and yes, a new coil would be a worthy investment. You'll need one with a double secondary output.

As to your original problem, check your plugs as well.
I'm assuming that you've got fuel to the cylinders.
I've also had several dud new condensers over the years.

Chris

 

[the hobbler]

both 'Axel Gerstle' and 'Van De Laan' can supply the square insert for the side of the distributor---costs less than 2 Euro. A small modification may be required if you still wish to retain the round grommet (through the middle of the square insert), but that I am sure will be well within the capabilities of most of the forum members.

 

[jmb79]

Had 5 minutes earlier to have a play. Re-checked the timing was set ok and I have a spark at the distributor. Should receive my spark plug tester tomorrow so can safely say whether there is a spark at the plugs or not. Whilst sorting out this issue I am very tempted to install the same system you have Chris. What type of coil do you have? can you post a picture? If mine needs replacing I can't find any for sale that look like mine (normal cylinder type but with two HT lead terminals). The only twin terminal ones I have found look radically different so I am unsure whether they would be suitable.

 

[Bambino]

Hi Jamie,

I've posted a photo of the two types of double output coil that seem to be currently available.

My system came from a late model 126. The standard cylindrical coil was cooked so I bought the block shaped one on the left when I installed the system in my car.

It performed very well but I eventually had a rush of blood to the head and went entirely electronic and installed a 123ignition. All of my old cars are equipped with this type of system and thus far I've had flawless service from them.

Please keep us posted about your progress,
Chris

 

[jmb79]

Cheers Chris, I have the one on the right also and just wanted to double check that the one picture on the left was the right type to replace it with if its cooked. Should get some time on Fri to have another look with my plug tester so will keep you posted.