General Ignition system failure

[Richard1940]

Hi, my 2009 panda has today suddenly developed what seems like misfiring, and the ignition failure light has come on.
Service book says I can drive it( which I can) slowly. It also says take to main dealer. Haynes manual takes it one step further and says more or less that it’s an ecu failure which is beyond scope of DIY.
My question is has anyone any idea of cost of this, bearing in mind the car is 15 years old and not worth a lot, and if any one has any thoughts on this it would be much appreciated.
Richard

 

[koalar]

Hi, my 2009 panda has today suddenly developed what seems like misfiring, and the ignition failure light has come on.
Service book says I can drive it( which I can) slowly. It also says take to main dealer. Haynes manual takes it one step further and says more or less that it’s an ecu failure which is beyond scope of DIY.
My question is has anyone any idea of cost of this, bearing in mind the car is 15 years old and not worth a lot, and if any one has any thoughts on this it would be much appreciated.
Richard

Almost certainly something cheap and simple, like plugs, assuming it's a petrol, how many miles since they were last changed

The engine check light just means it's detected a fault

Misfire and engine light literally has 101 causes, everyone is now possibly going to post what it was in their case

You really need to read the code first to find out what the fault is

There's several options for doing this,

Smart phone plus elm327 from around £5

Need pairing and settings settings up

Pug and play stand alone units that just plug in and work , better ones with data logging start at around £15

Ask a garage, going rate is £25-50, however if you know someone or a friendly local it possibly free of charge

We can probably steer you in the right direction if you are willing to try things yourself but it's pointless if you are paying a garage

 

[Richard1940]

Many thanks Koalar(again)
spark plugs 3 years old 5,000 miles
Going to obtain fault finder, will check back with result
Richard

 

[irc]

Mostly as @koalar says above - get codes read before spending money.
But one additional thought... is yours a 1.1?
They do have a specific fault which gives these symptoms, which is a weakness in a wiring joint near the ECU.
I haven't got one here at the moment so can't take pictures, but I probably have one coming soon (2009 1.1 with an occasional stutter and random EML). Not sure if there's already a guide on here, but if not, I will try to create one (unless someone beats me to it).
Not relevant if yours is a 1.2 though.

 

[koalar]

Many thanks Koalar(again)
spark plugs 3 years old 5,000 miles
Going to obtain fault finder, will check back with result
Richard

5k is nothing

Some recommendations here

Cheap Scanners Known to Work | FIAT Panda (Mk3)

I see a few people asking about engine check light I thread with readers known to work might help others I see someone has had success with a C reader 30001 Which also does live data 👍 https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/fiat-diesel-garage-in-the-midlands.496210/ and in 2022 can be had for...

www.fiatforum.com

 

[Richard1940]

Mostly as @koalar says above - get codes read before spending money.
But one additional thought... is yours a 1.1?
They do have a specific fault which gives these symptoms, which is a weakness in a wiring joint near the ECU.
I haven't got one here at the moment so can't take pictures, but I probably have one coming soon (2009 1.1 with an occasional stutter and random EML). Not sure if there's already a guide on here, but if not, I will try to create one (unless someone beats me to it).
Not relevant if yours is a 1.2 though.

Yes it’s a 1.1 and certainly some dodgy looking wiring going into the foremost Esu connector. The outer sheath of the wiring bundle is all worn away.

 

[Richard1940]

5k is nothing

Some recommendations here

Cheap Scanners Known to Work | FIAT Panda (Mk3)

I see a few people asking about engine check light I thread with readers known to work might help others I see someone has had success with a C reader 30001 Which also does live data 👍 https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/fiat-diesel-garage-in-the-midlands.496210/ and in 2022 can be had for...

www.fiatforum.com

OK have bought Creader3001 plugged in but doesn’t register any fault code.
Just “Random multiple cylinder misfire detected”
“Cylinder 1 misfire detected”
“ Fault code not found in database”
I also see that it on a generic database, not for Fiat.
Hopefully I’m reading things OK.
Does that help anyone to give me a clue
Richard

 

[koalar]

That's great

I take it

P0300 and P0301


Mainly detecting a misfire on cylinder 1


We have 4 identical cylinders and two identical coils, so normally it a matter of swapping parts over till the fault moves to another cylinder


Take the 4 plugs out and photograph them in order

Let's see if they all look the same

Swap plug 1 drivers side and plug 2 over clear the codes and take it for a drive see if the code is P0301 still or P0302

 

[Richard1940]

That's great

I take it

P0300 and P0301


Mainly detecting a misfire on cylinder 1


We have 4 identical cylinders and two identical coils, so normally it a matter of swapping parts over till the fault moves to another cylinder


Take the 4 plugs out and photograph them in order

Let's see if they all look the same

Swap plug 1 drivers side and plug 2 over clear the codes and take it for a drive see if the code is P0301 still or P0302

Thanks, have now seen the codes(doh) it’s only a small screen but I missed them.As you say P0300 and P 0301. There are also two others not in database U1600 and U1602 first one says Fiat Currant and second Fiat Pending. Now going to struggle with plugs Thanlks
Richard

 

[Richard1940]

That's great

I take it

P0300 and P0301


Mainly detecting a misfire on cylinder 1


We have 4 identical cylinders and two identical coils, so normally it a matter of swapping parts over till the fault moves to another cylinder


Take the 4 plugs out and photograph them in order

Let's see if they all look the same

Swap plug 1 drivers side and plug 2 over clear the codes and take it for a drive see if the code is P0301 still or P0302

OK plugs out ,attached photo, nos1-4 L to R. No 1 wet through, presumably unburnt fuel, no 4 looks a little oily. Other two nice brown colour,Plugs back in, nos 1 and 2 reversed,codes cleared, test run
Fault codes still P0300, P0301, and now only Uu1602 (Fiat pending.)

 

[irc]

Just had a 2010 1.1 dropped off, but.... it doesn't have the wiring problem. It does however seem to be missing about 8 years worth of servicing, but actually runs just fine, so not much help here (also has some of the worst lacquer peel I've seen in ages and what looks like half a bale of straw scattered around the interior).
Still expecting a 2009 1.1 in next week-ish which definitely does have random stutter issues, so hopefully can compare it with whatever you find (and I'll strip and fix the wiring junction even if that's not the cause).

 

[koalar]

Great that progress

We know it's not the plug causing the fault

We know there's unburnt fuel going into the cylinder

There several way of going next

I would test the spark strength at the coils

Something jumpered to earth


You coils are slightly different, two separate ones on the right hand side as looking from the front of the car

Disconnect one at a time

I have also used a long screwdriver and a battery jump lead before now

Keep your hands out of the way and don't do this if you have a pacemaker

All 4 should roughly jump the same amount

This should quickly tell us if there is a decent spark going to cylinder 1


I suspect the idle will sound the same when lead 1 is disconnected but very worse when testing cylinders 2,3,4

 

[DaveMcT]

The coils fire the plugs in pairs (wasted spark system) Missfire on one plug is unusual - a blown coil would fail to spark both plugs. However a weak coil might spark one plug only.

The best test would be remove both coils and swap them over. I would expect to see the fault move along with the weak coil.

Coils are cheap, so replace both and move on.

Obviously a 1.1 will need the troublesome ECU connector checking out. There are a few threads on the subject.

 

[koalar]

The coils fire the plugs in pairs (wasted spark system) Missfire on one plug is unusual - a blown coil would fail to spark both plugs. However a weak coil might spark one plug only.

Failing on one cylinder is very common on a waste spark, system each end of a coil is connected to different spark plug

If there is a break at one end of the coil the other side will still carry on firing

The best test would be remove both coils and swap them over. I would expect to see the fault move along with the weak coil.

Yep, take out the battery, take out the plastic tray, take of the tray, undo the coil brackets, undo the HT and control leads, and then reverse,

Coils are cheap, so replace both and move on.

I never understood stood changing things without trying to diagnosing the fault

It's easier to test as shown above, less than a minute, than it is to order parts that may or may not fix the problem, yes you can double check by swapping the coils if need be. But on a car with two coils I would never change both coils because they are cheap

Obviously a 1.1 will need the troublesome ECU connector checking out. There are a few threads on the subject.

It doesn't have the associated ignition or injector code for the typical wiring loom fault, it doesn't have the typical symptoms of loosing power over bumps or cornering, that's not to say it can't be, but it's not where I would be looking at this time

 

[Richard1940]

Great that progress

We know it's not the plug causing the fault

We know there's unburnt fuel going into the cylinder

There several way of going next

I would test the spark strength at the coils

View attachment 449817

Something jumpered to earth


You coils are slightly different, two separate ones on the right hand side as looking from the front of the car

Disconnect one at a time

I have also used a long screwdriver and a battery jump lead before now

Keep your hands out of the way and don't do this if you have a pacemaker

All 4 should roughly jump the same amount

View attachment 449819

This should quickly tell us if there is a decent spark going to cylinder 1


I suspect the idle will sound the same when lead 1 is disconnected but very worse when testing cylinders 2,3,4

OK After testing . No 1 very weak spark, nos 2,3 very strong spark, no 4 weak but maybe not as weak as no1.
I see that nos 1,4 go to the same coil?
Perhaps bears out the fact that no 4 plug was also a bit mucky(oily)
Richard

 

[koalar]

Great progress

We now know it's an ignition fault

We now know both coils are being controlled correctly by the ECU

What we don't know is if the coil is receiving the correct correct amount of amp

Yes the coils are shared

1 and 4
2 and 3

I would swap the coils and retest

Hopefully the weak sparks will now be on 2 and 3

Assuming that's the case I would change the faulty coil, HT leads and plugs

Coils do not age, they normally last indefinitely as long as they are kept clean and the HT side is okay

Faulty lead is plug can and does damage a coil

They are often changed only for the new one to fail again in the first few months


If the weak sparks is still on 1 and 4 then we are chasing a wiring fault

 

[Richard1940]

Great progress

We now know it's an ignition fault

We now know both coils are being controlled correctly by the ECU

What we don't know is if the coil is receiving the correct correct amount of amp

Yes the coils are shared

1 and 4
2 and 3

I would swap the coils and retest

Hopefully the weak sparks will now be on 2 and 3

Assuming that's the case I would change the faulty coil, HT leads and plugs

Coils do not age, they normally last indefinitely as long as they are kept clean and the HT side is okay

Faulty lead is plug can and does damage a coil

They are often changed only for the new one to fail again in the first few months


If the weak sparks is still on 1 and 4 then we are chasing a wiring fault

Unfortunately having changed round the coils, I still have misfire on cylinder 1(code P0300, P0301) , I did clear the previous faults.
Strangely to my untutored eye when I did a spark test again on cylinder 1 it seems fairly strong, I may be wrong.
To go a step further I changed the plug in cylinder 1,rechecked, still wet when I removed it. Then I replaced HT lead to the plug from the coil with new, no change. No idea what to do next.
Richard

 

[koalar]

We are moving forwards

We haven't found the problem but we have not spent anything and

Eliminated plugs, coil and HT leads

The next thing to try is swapping the injectors over
It's not difficult

Let me see if I find some instructions

 

[koalar]

Here you are

I am not 100% sure if you can slide the clip 1 with the manifold pipe still in place, I thought I had done this but have been informed it's not possible, no big deal as it's only two extra screws to undo

 

[Richard1940]

Here you are

View attachment 449970

I am not 100% sure if you can slide the clip 1 with the manifold pipe still in place, I thought I had done this but have been informed it's not possible, no big deal as it's only two extra screws to