I.C.E. Upgrade in a Seicento

[gp3000000]

Hi, am looking for some advice.

I currently have the standard 18W Tonsil front speakers (one of which is louder than the other, I think one's blown), a http://www.sony.co.uk/product/ica-bluetooth-car-stereo/mex-bt3600Sony MEX-BT3600U headunit, 4 X 27W R.M.S. (Which I think is how the front speaker got blown) I also have (and don't shoot me down in flames) Juice 6" X 9"s in the rear parcel shelf. At the time I did not have a large budget but wanted to have some better sound in my car than standard. And the 6" X 9"s gave me that.

However now I badly want more bass, but don't want it to sound chavvy. I listen to practically every genre of music, so I want something that can happily provide low level bass for soft rock and pop, but can really perform when playing Drum n bass.

So my idea is to buy 4 Sony XF-1035s (10cm). Two to replace the front speakers, and I'm currently making panels for the rear quarters, I plan to put the other two in there, and connect them to the rear HU outputs, where the 6" X 9"s are currently connected. Then turn down the bass output on the HU (which has pre-outs for a sub which are gain-controllable on the HU), so practically all the bass is coming from the sub. The sub I have my eye on is the Kenwood KFC-W112S (with this Bass box) and the amp a Kenwood KAC-6203.

I could never see why people criticised 6" X 9"s, until I realised the treble is not loud enough and the bass is not loud enough so you turn up the volume and the bass distorts and the treble becomes tinny, or sometimes muddy.

The 6" X 9"s will be removed (I kept the orignal parcel shelf) if I go ahead with this plan.

Any flaws in this plan, or anything you'd do differently? Would you incorporate the 6" X 9"s anywhere, perhaps in the rear panels, or get rid?
The only thing I don't really want to change is the fact that speakers are gonna go in the rear quarter custom panels.

Any advice appreciated,

EDIT - After reading, I gather it is not on to have 6" X 9"s in the parcel shelf AND a sub in the boot (which is where the sub would be going).

Also, is the only difference between a sealed sub box and a ported box having a hole with a plastic bass tube?

 

[volxstu]

If your going through the arduous task of making custom pods then is there any chance that you could do this in the front doors. Have a search around for sound staging and you will see what i mean.

Your car is tiny so if you only bought one good pair of speakers installed in the front, that will suffice and you will get better, louder speakers with correct sound staging.

 

[gp3000000]

I've been reading around a bit more since I made that post, I gather the idea is to make the mid and treble sound as if it is coming from the bonnet and the bass from the rear?

I can mount a new pair of 10cm speakers where the current standard speakers are in the dash, that's no problem as they will fit without modification. Or would you suggest component speakers in the custom front door cards?

The rear quarter pods are cut and shaped now anyway, power outlets are going in one each side and I'm mounting an invertor behind one side, I plan to mount the sub amp in the other side. Only thing is those fragile pretensioners... don't want them getting knocked

I am looking into making custom front door cards anyhow now... just so they match the backs (mine are all stained and dirty anyway)

 

[volxstu]

Scrap the standard 10cm speaker location. You seem to have the Fabrication skills that are necessary to do it properly so create some custom pods for the front doors. We can talk about that further when you have chose your equipment.

I will say if you are going to put all this effort into the fabrication of the sounds then dont fcuk about with cheap tat. Amp up some decent components in the front. If you are going to be spending time on fabricating mounts you dont want to do it install it realise it sounds crap and start all over again.
If you have to have rear speakers then just run them quietly off the Hu.
Purchase a decent sub and build a box to the right spec. £30 will get you 2 sheets of MDF which is enough to make 4 boxes

 

[paulbfd]

I had door builds in my Sei with tweeters behind the grill where the original 10cm jobs were and a sub in the boot which worked pretty well. The tweeters would have been better off in the A-pillars but I changed car before I got chance.

The idea is to have ALL frequencies coming from the front, it is possible to "blend" the sub with the front end though.

A decent 4 channel amplifier, with sub in the boot and components up front will work really well.

I even once made a fibreglass enclosure to house two 10" subs reverse mounted but never got round to installing it all. Looked ace it did.

edit - this was it...

 

[volxstu]

Do you still have that stealth box for sale Paul?

 

[paulbfd]

OMG, good point Stu yes I do!!!

 

[volxstu]

Ha i really need to get a life lol.
But yeah to the OP the man above has a swanky Stealth box which makes the best of your boot space.

 

[gp3000000]

Well I have been offered what I think is a good deal on a subwoofer,

At Car Audio Centre I've been offered this 10" Sony Xplod sub (330W R.M.S, 1200 peak) and 1200W peak Juice amp for £100, a saving of £25. I'm not too keen on the juice amp though, especially as they don't give R.M.S. figures for any of their amps

Or this Kenwood KFC-W251110" 300W sub with Kenwood KAC-6203 300w R.M.S.amp, £103.

Which is better, I might see if I can get a different amp thrown in that £100 deal

 

[volxstu]

Dont buy anything from Car Audio Centa its as simple as that.

Also save your money for a bit longer. All of that kit has no potential for the future, you will hit it flat out from the off and get bored of it after about 5 minutes. Trust me.
Also Sony have pulled out of the ICE market so i would be very surprised if anybody actually still has these for sale at any where near advertised prices they must be selling out by now.

 

[gp3000000]

All of that kit has no potential for the future, you will hit it flat out from the off and get bored of it after about 5 minutes. Trust me.

These are my two biggest worries, which you have just confirmed. I want to be able to take this kit into my next car, have no plans to change car atm, but obviously it will happen eventually. I am open to increasing my budget if that is what is needed. I don't want to waste money on cheap kit, end up wanting more and paying again in six months time. I already did that with the 6x9s.

So what would you suggest in 10" sub, and quality amp?

I have Kenwood home audio and I am happy with the quality, that doesn't mean I want to stick to Kenwood though. If you know something better then I'll look into it.

Also Sony have pulled out of the ICE market

That is a pity, I bought my Sony HU 6 months ago and even on the standard front speakers only you could hear the quality difference (I had a JVC HU before, it sounded good until compared with the Sony). I like Sony, I bought their a Bluetooth MP3 player that matches the HU. Again, don't necessarily want to stick with Sony stuff.

Have been to a few local ICE places, have seen FLI (I think I know your opinions on those) Alpine, Sony, Hertz, have got an Alpine brochure and was looking at this, 500W R.M.S., have also been told to get a Class D amp (Monoblock) rather than bridge a 2-channel as the quality difference is noticable. Is this true? Having electronics knowledge I was under the impression that the only advantage to a class D is efficiency, quality is lost to gain efficiency.

EDIT - I've also re-examined the front door with a view to putting components in, but there doesn't seem to be enough depth anywhere in the door for any kind of speaker without hacking metal about, except the door bin but I'm not mounting a speaker in that lol it will look rubbish...

 

[volxstu]

Ok now we are getong somewhere. Sony did make reasonable head units but the speakers were less than good.

As for alpine, that sub is pretty good by most peoples standards. But I am extremely fussy with my speakers and find those subs a bit clinical,but that really is a personal taste that is not shared by many.
I actually know somebody who has a couple of the 12s in Essex. I know Essex is a big place but he is in rainham or somewhere if you would like me to try to arange a listening session I can.

What I will say is if you give them a good quality power then they do have drop a lovely blind even in a small box which is good for your car.

Personally on that sort of budget I prefer something called an SNG JAtt but they are 12s and like space but you could get one in:devil: Im an expert at squeeIng them into small places.

Now onto the front speakers. You have a couple of options. The first being that you can build door pods using speakers that work well in a sealed enclosure. The other would be to do kick builds. Both aren't easy but I can help you with the theory at least for them.

Sorry if my spelling is bad I have just typed all that on my iPod LOL.

 

[gp3000000]

As for alpine, that sub is pretty good by most peoples standards. But I am extremely fussy with my speakers and find those subs a bit clinical,but that really is a personal taste that is not shared by many.
I actually know somebody who has a couple of the 12s in Essex. I know Essex is a big place but he is in rainham or somewhere if you would like me to try to arange a listening session I can.

Rainham is about a mile away from where I work, so that may be an idea...

Personally on that sort of budget I prefer something called an SNG JAtt but they are 12s and like space but you could get one in:devil: Im an expert at squeeIng them into small places.

TBH I really like the idea of the Stealthboxz, that's why I wanna stick with 10", my boot is full of stuff all of the time, so really don't want to lose space.

Could you suggest a suitable amp for that alpine sub?

The first being that you can build door pods using speakers that work well in a sealed enclosure. The other would be to do kick builds. Both aren't easy but I can help you with the theory at least for them.

After seeing other threads involving kick builds, I really don't think they are my thing, just don't like the look of them. Door pods would mean I'd lose the door bin (no biggie) but then I can't help but think wouldn't it be easier to use the 4" dash mount and get some 4" components? Mounting the tweeters in the door?

Sorry if my spelling is bad I have just typed all that on my iPod LOL.

lol

 

[volxstu]

LOL yeah that seems you are sorted for a sub. He works for a print company I forget the name but I will ask him 2 mo if he can give u a demo.
I get what u mean by door bins now, the space is so limited in there 4 the 4s that you will never get good mid bass. It really is worth the extra effort to do the doors.

I'm not sure on amp I will have a look around.

 

[gp3000000]

LOL yeah that seems you are sorted for a sub. He works for a print company I forget the name but I will ask him 2 mo if he can give u a demo.

Thanks

I get what u mean by door bins now, the space is so limited in there 4 the 4s that you will never get good mid bass. It really is worth the extra effort to do the doors.

Do you mean the space in the dash is so limited I won't get good mid bass?

The bit I refer to as the door bin is the grey plastic bit at the bottom of the door you can you to store stuff (mainly rubbish in my case) I was just casually saying I know some people just cut holes and mount speakers there, and just leaving the back to open air.

I'm looking at Paul's thread here, guess I'll have to try and do something like that.

I've also been looking at these, Alpine R series components (2 X 110W R.M.S.) At £160 they are dear, would they be overkill? And would this be a decent amp (2 X 75W) to power them?

Would I be better going for the cheaper G series (2 X 70W R.M.S.)? Then I could use this amp (2 X 50W)

 

[volxstu]

Yeah the space in the dash would be useful to hide tweeters if you didnt want them on the A pillar.

Just like Pauls build would be ideal.

I wouldnt say that the Type R Comps are over kill but IMO you can get a lot better for the money especially if you go second hand.

Have a look here
http://www.talkaudio.co.uk/vbb/showthread.php?t=303722

Front channel amp with small footprint
http://www.talkaudio.co.uk/vbb/showthread.php?t=303723


In terms of sub if you want a good all rounder then i have just seen these.
http://www.talkaudio.co.uk/vbb/showthread.php?t=297405

Just do a search on FI Audio. Although again they are not to my personal taste i would choose one of these over the Alpine all day long. Also these will take anything you have to give.

I am always in essex so if you need anything from that site then i can buy it and bring it too you.

 

[gp3000000]

And I am always in Birchington too. lol

I think that sub is going over my price range TBH. I was originally looking at £30 subs... look where we are now!

TBH £160 for components is over the top of my price range, I'll have a look on eBay too, what are the decent makes of components?

The ones you linked to on TA have one tweeter missing, otherwise that seems a bargain... I'm sure that at £450 new, Bravox must be top top end stuff?

For a moment there I quite fancied an all-Alpine setup, I suppose it depends on what you're happy with... There is an I.C.E. shop in my area that people only ever say good things about, who is an Alpine dealer too, I reckon if I got an all-Alpine setup I could probably get a bit of discount.

I reckon I could get a good setup allowing:

£100 sub
£150 sub amp
£100 components
£75 component amp

My original budget was: £30 sub, £60 sub amp, £20 front speakers. LOL

Bang goes all my money this month lol

 

[volxstu]

I didnt see the missing tweet
Im sure that you will be more than happy with an Alpine set up. I will have a check of a few people i know and see if a discount can be obtained.

I still havnt managed to speak to that guy for a demo i have just spent my whole lunch ordering some vinyl to my current build. And dont talk to me about budget. Less than a year ago i set out to spending about £200 on just a new sub now i have spent about 2k and rising (without instalation costs) and on my second install since i made that decision lol.
I started off with a 12" Cerwin Vega Stroker Pro running at 3000w RMS which i got installed and took out after 3 months of it fully working.I have now gone to a 10" MTX at 600w RMS and doing a more SQ orientated install. I bought some tweeters the other week and havnt even installed them and am just looking at another set :bang:

 

[paulbfd]

I reckon I could get a good setup allowing:

£100 sub
£150 sub amp
£100 components
£75 component amp

My original budget was: £30 sub, £60 sub amp, £20 front speakers. LOL

With your original budget, it's not mega bucks so if you replace it all a few months down the line you've not wasted loads. Infact you could still probably fetch a few quid for it selling it on.

Don't forget to factor in install accessories (cables, fuses, etc.).

 

[paulbfd]

And dont talk to me about budget. Less than a year ago i set out to spending about £200 on just a new sub now i have spent about 2k and rising

£2k? Not trying hard enough