Technical High fuel consumption

Currently reading:
Technical High fuel consumption

UnoCento:)

New member
Joined
Sep 17, 2008
Messages
39
Points
23
Location
Johannesburg
Hey
I have an uno cento 1.0.(999cc) and im using alot of fuel, i recently put on a freeflow exhaust and a cone filter(the cone filter is ment to lower fuel consumption)anyways i filled up my tank and i drove with a light foot, and i only managed to get around 280 to 300km out of my tank. Which for a uno i think is very high! What could be causing this? The inside of my exhaust is very black and i think its burnt oil? Dunno if that means anything but i thought i would include it.
Thanks alot!
Jason
 
Last edited:
If the inside of the exhaust is very black then that can indicate a rich mixture. My suspicion is that the free flow exhaust and cone air filter are incompatible with your engine. They have probably messed up the scavenging effect needed for engine efficiency by removing back pressure. Also, when you fitted the cone filter what did you do with the two pipes from the rocker cover and the base of the carburettor?

Is the exhaust and filter specifically meant for your model of Uno or are they 'universal' fitments? If the latter I'm afraid you've probably fitted junk that will do little for your engine.

You have two options as far as I can see:

1. Take your car to a professional rolling road and see if the engine and carburettor can be tuned to work with the parts you've fitted.

or

2. Re-fit the original filter and exhaust and see if that solves the problem. If it does then the aftermarket parts you fitted are obviously no good for your car.

If you suspect that the car is burning oil then look for blue smoke from the exhaust and a dropping oil level. Blue smoke indicates burning oil, black smoke indicates a rich mixture. As your black exhaust coincided with your excess fuel consumption then I suspect an over-rich mixture is the problem.

Good luck and I hope you get it sorted soon (y)
 
I got a feeling ur rite!? I shall do all that this week. What am i ment to do with those two pipes? Cause the person who did my car just blocked them which i thought is bad for the engine. So i removed the blocks and opened them, i have only driven it once cause im scared about messing up the engine because of those two pipes...any advice on what to do? The exhaust was universal as far as i no, and i had to modify the cone filter to fit onto my car.
 
The big breather pipe should be unblocked as it's for crankcase ventilation, ideally routed to a catch tank though I ran mine venting to atmosphere for a couple of years with no problems. :)o)

The smaller pipe needs to be blocked where it would connect to the air filter elbow. You will otherwise cause and air leak at the base of the carburettor leading to a weak mixture and eratic tickover.

Hope this helps. :)
 
My suspicion is that the free flow exhaust and cone air filter are incompatible with your engine. They have probably messed up the scavenging effect needed for engine efficiency by removing back pressure.
--
You have two options as far as I can see:

1. Take your car to a professional rolling road and see if the engine and carburettor can be tuned to work with the parts you've fitted.

or

2. Re-fit the original filter and exhaust and see if that solves the problem. If it does then the aftermarket parts you fitted are obviously no good for your car.

You are on the right with your conclusion but not quite right with the cause. :)

'Scavenging' and 'Back pressure' are not commonly used terms and so they are often not understood well , so lets see what they are and what effect they have on an engine - relative to fuel economy., and then we will look at low restriction air filters.

'Scavenging'.
At the end of each firing stroke and expansion the combustion chamber needs to be evacuated of the burnt air/fuel mixture in preparation for the fresh new mix coming in.
Residues of this old burnt gas takes up space in the chamber and this space obviously cant be filled with new air/fuel mix.
This charge dilution results in less power and economy.
It is a dirty inefficient engine.

So what you have to do is make sure all the old combustion residue is gone.
It of course has to go out the exhaust pipe.

Now as soon as the exhaust valve open this very hot charge which wants to expand and fly out the exhaust port down into the pipe.
In a very short time though this expansion power is lost and some residue remains.

This is where scavenging comes in.

Scavenging is the term given to the cleaning action of the chamber of burnt gases.
Ideally you want a complete scavenge.

The scavenging process is created by a few various things and they all do their part in contributing to this effect.

First off as mentioned you have an initial burst of pressurized exhaust gas that wants to leave the small chamber that has high pressure to a lower pressure environment , namely , the exhaust pipe.

As this exhaust gas is traveling inside the manifold (like a train) it is pushing air in front of it , and also crating a vacuum behind itself.
This small vacuum helps suck more waste gas from the chamber.

During this short period when scavenging has to take place both the intake and the exhaust valve is open.
This is known as 'overlap'.

Just as you get a train effect of pushing and vacuum in the exhaust side you also get it on the intake side.

Air flowing down the intake will push past the now open intake valve , through the chamber and out the exhaust port.

The longer the overlap duration the more time scavenging has to take place.
However , camshafts with long overlap durations have very poor low speed (RPM) efficiency.
Due to excessive overlap duration air speeds are very low at low RPM's.

That is why a when you hear a race engine idling it has that characteristic 'Rump Rump' sound.
At low engine speeds it can barely even tick over properly without stalling.

In a normal car when everything is running rite scavenging can be completed and engine efficiency can be quite high even at low engine speeds.

Now say we change one of the variables that creates a good scavenging effect and replace it with a bad variable.

Keep these points in mind and we will move on to the next topic....
'Back pressure'


'Back pressure' is the resistance to exhaust flow caused by the following.
Resistive mufflers - either from small size , bad design , or failure.
Resistive pipe work - either from small size , bad design , or failure (crushed bends)

Automotive accessory outlets praise the effects of HUGE pipes and mufflers with no restriction , so big you can stuff an obese turkey up the tailpipe.
While these sellers often claim outrageous performance gains from using such a product , in the real world it doesn't translate to increased performance , in fact , often the opposite happens.

Poor economy , lower mid range power , excessive noise etc.

BUT , we know that race cars usually run quite large pipes and low restriction mufflers.
How can it be right and wrong at the same time....?
Is having back pressure then a good thing or a bad thing....?

The answer is both YES and YES , and NO and NO. :)

It ALL depends upon the application - but now for some more technical theory.

Depending upon the shape of the combustion chamber , wedge , heron , hemispherical etc , will determine the ratio of intake versus exhaust valve size.
To put it another way - The exhaust valve is always a certain percentage smaller than the intake valve , and this percentage is determined by the design of the combustion chamber.

Now take for a real world example a UNO 1300 , Ritmo , 128 blah blah ...OK.

FIAT in their wisdom tended to use exhaust valves TOO big.
They have (even in their twin cams) used a percentage figure now known not to provide the best fuel consumption versus power output.
I have never found a reason why they did this , perhaps they reasoned a larger exhaust valve would stay cooler and less likely to burn over a long time....:confused: who knows...but thats what they did.

So in most FIAT engines (not sure about the latest ones) fuel economy isn't all that great.
Consider the economy figures from Jap cars that are of the same engine size and make similar power.
Usually they will get better fuel economy with less emissions.

My 1L Suzuki Swift (geo metro) gets 4.5L/100km and makes 55HP.
My UNO book says it will get 5.0L/100km and make 45HP from the same engine size.
It should be noted that my Swift weighs 150kg more than the UNO but has a top speed 20kmph higher.
--but thats beside the point.

So what FIAT had done was make the exhaust side of the cylinder head flow well , too well by comparison to the intake side.
This promotes OVER SCAVENGING.

OVER SCAVENGING happens when the chamber is vacuumed of all its reside , and also a lot of fresh intake charge is also sucked out the exhaust during the overlap period.

This means unused , unburnt raw fuel and air mix is going out the exhaust pipe.
This looses fuel economy , and you certainly cant make power from gas going out the exhaust pipe.

OK...

Now , when we come along to our FIAT example and we put a lower restriction exhaust on it (with no other REAL modifications) we are INCREASING this already overdone scavenging effect that FIATS have.

The result . less economy -- its all going out the tail pipe unburnt.

In summary....

Low restriction exhausts will only IMPROVE MPG on a car that has unusually restrictive exhaust ports or small exhaust valves.

In the dark old days (50's and 60's) this wasn't uncommon , and after-market pipe and muffler sellers had a boom time because their products really did add 10% power and 25% on the MPG.



Low restriction air filters.

This really is only a problem with non EFI cars, or in other words cars fitted with carburettors.

Carburettors are intricate devices that are pressure and volume sensitive.
From the factory they are set up (aka jetted) to suit the engine it is fitted to.

This is done with the full exhaust and intake system connected , including the air filter element.

As Air filter devices have some sort of resistance to air flow , this resistance must be in place when the air fuel mixtures are set through jetting.

Simply put , Jetting is a procedure where they select main fuel jet , emulsion tubes and air correction jets.
These , when right , provide a continually self adjusting mixture dependent upon air flow and vacuum levels through the carburettor across the whole RPM range.

When you change to a LOWER (or higher) restriction air filter it will affect the levels of vacuum within the carby compared to what it experiences normally , this in turn will alter the air/fuel mixtures being delivered to the engine.

This means, with a low restrictions air filter the standard carburetor jetting is NOW incorrect and cant delivery the right mixtures required for full power and full economy.


gW:)
 
Interesting... :)

I would only add two questions:

- I seem to recall that the FIRE engine has negative valve overlap, which would mean there is a period of time when both the inlet and exhaust valves are closed. This is very different to other FIAT engines and particularly FIAT engines from the 70's. Therefore I wonder whether the comment about 'too much scavenging' still applies.

- Japanese horsepower is not directly comparable to European horsepower because they measure it in a 'gross' rather than 'net' fashion (i.e. without water pump, alternator, and even without the exhaust fitted). So I'm not convinced that a Suzuki Swift engine really has more power. And, you need to consider the torque as well.

As for economy, the Japanese make a lot of cars that are very thirsty for the performance they achieve. Examples that spring to mind are my 1990 Toyota Celica (the only Japanese car I've owned) and the '90s Subaru Legacy/Impreza with the flat-four engines - heck, even the 3.3L flat-six of the SVX had an amazing thirst, far more than my Alfa's V6.

-Alex
 
--the FIRE engine has negative valve overlap, which would mean there is a period of time when both the inlet and exhaust valves are closed.--

--Japanese horsepower is not directly comparable to European horsepower because they measure it in a 'gross' rather than 'net' fashion--
--And, you need to consider the torque as well.--

--the Japanese make a lot of cars that are very thirsty for the performance they achieve.--
--1990 Toyota Celica - and the '90s Subaru Legacy/Impreza--


Interesting points Alex.

re- 'the FIRE engine has negative valve overlap''

Umm , don't know where you heard that from.

cam1.jpg


cam2.jpg



camtiming.jpg



In the 999 engine the figures 1 degrees BTDC and 9 degrees ATDC add up to 10 degrees worth of overlap.

In the 1108 engine the figures 2 degrees BTDC and 2 degrees ATDC add up to 4 degrees worth of overlap- not much but its still overlap , and definitely not negative overlap.

Negative overlap is actually a misleading term.
You can get less and less overlap but your cant get less than NO overlap.
At the point of NO overlap , there is no more overlap to get less of.

It is possible to have a period of no overlap - but the term negative overlap isn't technically correct for this cam timing event.

So far all that I have seen of this is some research done by Jaguar and Yamaha in 2006.
It can only feasibly be applied to variable cam timing engines that are also MP-EFI and have full engine management.

It is something that I believe is still in early devolopement stages and not found in any production cars.

However it is possible for variable cam timing cars to reduce the cam timing so dramatically that overlap is essentially zero.
This is in an effort control emissions , and not increase power.

I have two possibilities of what you may have thought as being negative duration when applied to FIRE engine.

One possibility is the way that cam durations are sometimes written.
Take the 999 example again.. It can be written as...

1 BTDC , 19 ATDC , 29 BBDC , 9 ATDC.

or

-1,19,-29,9 - or something like that.

Seeing the negative marks leads people to think of negative duration , but its not.
It is just indicating 'before dead center'.


Another possibility of confusion is cam timing offset.
To occasionally meet emission standards on some gases (might be Nox) on an engine which has no air pump or EGR , manufacturers can retard a camshaft by up to about 6 degrees , and drop these emission test figures.

If you start of with a small cam that the intake opens at 1 degree BTDC then retard the whole cam by 5 or six degrees you will see that the inlet opens well after TDC.
In some peoples explanation this might look like negative overlap duration but it isn't.

The cam still has full overlap duration but the time that it has started at has been delayed more in the cycle.


-------


''Japanese horsepower is not directly comparable to European horsepower because they measure it in a 'gross' rather than 'net' fashion''
''And, you need to consider the torque as well.''

Horsepower actually doesn't exist.
HP is a mathematical calculation derived by torque and RPM.

Horsepower can be taken as being of different values depending upon the formula and how you view it.
When you add other measuring variables , eg chassis dyno , engine dyno with or without accessories you can get a wide range of figures.

Such vagueness has render the term HP more or less useless , and is often only used in advertisement boasting power figures which can't be proved either way.

The only two figures that can be relied upon as being roughly accurate measures of power is torque measured on a rolling road dyno.
Even these figures can vary on the very same dyno from day to day , and certainly will not be repeatable on another mans dyno.

And another way to measure power is to view it in another way.

Power by itself is not what we are wanting.
We are after the effect of that power -- in car applications , it is vehicle acceleration.

So the most realistic way of measuring power is by measuring acceleration and using calculations to figure out the HP.

One VERY simple example is here (it doesn't take into account aerodynamics or traction loss) - but its pretty close ,, actually even tho this is a simple calculator its closer than often published HP figures.

http://www.dragtimes.com/horsepower-et-trap-speed-calculator.php



There would not be a huge difference in CD (drag coeff) between my Swift and my UNO.
The top speed in the Swift is 10 or 15 Kmph higher in the Swift than in the UNO.

Therefore the Swift has more power and is probably accurate being quoted 55hp wheres the UNO is 45hp.


On an unrelated side point - I used to work on 1000HP twin turbo diesel racing boat engines.
This same engine (from Cat) also powered Earth moving machinery ,, the manufacturer rates it as making 300Hp.
Who you talk to and how they measure HP can give wildly varying figures.

My 128 racer (it was a road registered club competition car) made 100hp. (or so I estimate)
BUT , it would spin the tires in 3rd gear at 80kmph.
I also run that to 8,500RPM in top gear , which if you have some spare time , do that calculations of tire size (195/65/13) , RPM and final drive ratio.
You might be surprised at how fast that is.

I wound the speedo needle right around back to the 0 mark on the dial. :D

Some UNO turbo owners that claim to have hundreds of HP don't even do that.

-----------

'the Japanese make a lot of cars that are very thirsty for the performance they achieve.'

'1990 Toyota Celica - and the '90s Subaru Legacy/Impreza'

I couldn't find the '90 model , but heres the '89 Celica.
http://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/car/?car=16060

Subaru Legacy/Impreza
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subaru_Legacy

Subaru SVX
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subaru_Alcyone_SVX



The Celica weighs - 1413kg
The Impreza weighs - 1,422kg
The SVX weighs - 1624 kg

Did you ever think that these specifications could have affected the MPG ?

gW:)
 
Interesting points Alex.

re- 'the FIRE engine has negative valve overlap''

Umm , don't know where you heard that from.

In the 999 engine the figures 1 degrees BTDC and 9 degrees ATDC add up to 10 degrees worth of overlap.

Thanks, but see the attached pic of the mk1 Uno handbook.

Note that it's not 9 degrees ATDC, but -9 degrees ATDC. I wonder if your specs were wrong - the figure is so absurd that whoever transcribed it made the 'correction' of removing the negative sign? That means an 8 degree period where neither the inlet nor the exhaust valves are open.

Negative overlap is actually a misleading term.
You can get less and less overlap but your cant get less than NO overlap.
At the point of NO overlap , there is no more overlap to get less of.

It is possible to have a period of no overlap - but the term negative overlap isn't technically correct for this cam timing event.

OK - sorry, I see what you mean. My feeling was that if there was no overlap for 8 degrees, that was 'negative overlap' of 8 degrees, (i.e. a 'normal' 10 degrees overlap compared with an absurd -8 degrees overlap). I'm sure I'd read that term somewhere but will stand corrected.

Horsepower can be taken as being of different values depending upon the formula and how you view it.
When you add other measuring variables , eg chassis dyno , engine dyno with or without accessories you can get a wide range of figures.

Such vagueness has render the term HP more or less useless , and is often only used in advertisement boasting power figures which can't be proved either way.

I think we can definitely agree on that! ;)
My point is that the Celica I referred to had 160bhp from its Japanese-Domestic-Market 2000cc 3S-GE motor. Apparently. When I drove the car it seemed to have about the guts of a 1.6L FIAT Tipo (~80bhp) - and that's not a lot! Would just about make it to 160km/h. Engine may have been down on power but all seemed to check out OK. The Celica was an auto though, so that knocked the edge of acceleration. There was probably a good degree of defunct anti-smog plumbing in the equation as well. But I still had to wonder whether it ever had anything like 160bhp. I've driven a Tipo Sedici and they have, what, 125bhp?, and that was a rocket compared to any of several Celicas I've driven.

There would not be a huge difference in CD (drag coeff) between my Swift and my UNO.
The top speed in the Swift is 10 or 15 Kmph higher in the Swift than in the UNO.

Therefore the Swift has more power and is probably accurate being quoted 55hp wheres the UNO is 45hp.

Fair enough, as this is basically the same metrics by which I assessed the Celica - so I now agree that the Swift has more power :)

I couldn't find the '90 model , but heres the '89 Celica.
http://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/car/?car=16060

Subaru Legacy/Impreza
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subaru_Legacy

Subaru SVX
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subaru_Alcyone_SVX

The Celica weighs - 1413kg
The Impreza weighs - 1,422kg
The SVX weighs - 1624 kg

Did you ever think that these specifications could have affected the MPG ?

gW:)

Heheh - yes, you're right (again), the weight is most of the killer and the 1990 Celica (which, by the way, was different to the '89 Celica http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Celica but that's splitting hairs) was especially heavy for the type of car that it was, over 1500kg.

But I'm still not convinced. I know that a Subaru Legacy is about the same weight as my 164 (about 1500kg) but the fuel consumption of the Legacy is awful on a long trip, as much as 12L/100km, where my 164 manages about 8.5. Realistically though, this conversation isn't going anywhere because there are so many variables to consider. I suppose the thing is, I refuse to accept that the European manufacturers make less economical cars than the Japanese. Perhaps we differ in that opinion. :eek:

What would be much more interesting direction would be to read about what you did to make your Corolla so much more economical? :)

And also, something I wanted to bring into this (being close to the original topic) was that I have fitted a cone filter to my Uno Turbo and it seems to have become less economical, though I also notice the boost can go higher now. So what I need to do next is to do a long-term test driving gently without much boost to see if it was just that the extra boost allowed also resulted in extra fuel under race conditions. Otherwise, is there any other explanation for how a cone air filter would reduce the economy?

Cheers,
-Alex
 

Attachments

  • EngineTiming.jpg
    EngineTiming.jpg
    65 KB · Views: 127
Last edited:
--
What would be much more interesting direction would be to read about what you did to make your Corolla so much more economical? :)

--is there any other explanation for how a cone air filter would reduce the economy?

Cheers,
-Alex


Hi Alex.

I'de love to answer your questions , but cant.
I have left the forum.

gW:)
 
Last edited:
Back
Top