500L Hello... and a query

[Brickus]

Evening all

(Dixon of Dock Green fans, stand at ease).

Just to say HI to all you Fiat folk and ask whether someone can shed any light on a little problem with my daughter's Fiat 500L, acquired a few months ago.

The gears went west last week and my mobile mechanic (now alas on holiday, fishing) diagnosed a burnt out clutch. It's a 2015 car, and has just done 50,000 odd miles. We don't know about previous owners...

Anyhow, a new clutch has been fitted by a local garage who also replaced the slave cylinder and the two gear linkage cables. (One of these had worn and had parted company a while back: a U clamp was keeping the end in place as a temporary fix). So - new clutch and cables but when they dropped it off tonight, it was very hard to engage first gear.

Can someone please tell me: do the cables need adjusting before fitting? Also, is there anything else that might conceivably lead to the gear engagement baulking? Before, the box was like the proverbial knife through butter.

Any wisdom gratefully received!

 

[varesecrazy]

Hi. Which engine.. and gearbox ?
The 500l shares common parts to the more common FIATs

Charlie

 

[Brickus]

Hi Charlie forgot to say: 1.2 Lounge five speed (but aren’t they all?)

 

[varesecrazy]

500 section should be best bet there..

Something sounds mis.matched

Weird how the cobbled together cable was better though.. maybe related.

It is of course possible a wrong spec part has been fitted.

Look here to see if the cables have options..
https://www.fiatdalys.lt/en

There are parts diagrams..etc . To compare

 

[Ralf S.]

If the gears won't change smoothly then the clutch is likely dragging.

The clutch could just need bleeding some more/again). With air in the system the clutch pedal movement will be compressing it (like spongey brakes) rather than lifting the clutch plate.

I would also check the gear oil level. You may have the "fill it till it comes out of the inspection level hole" system .. but the garage may just have put in the nominal "recommended volume". You need to fill it till it comes out of the inspection level hole.

Make sure the linkages on the gearbox have been lubed too.. although the bushes are probably nylon so this one is only something to do when everything else has failed and you're thinking what else it could be.

Ralf S.

 

[portland_bill]

What is it like trying to engage reverse?
At tickover, press the clutch and engage reverse within two seconds. Does it crunch, at all?

If reverse is ok, problem is most likely with cable adjustment.
If reverse fights too, clutch is dragging and they need to rectify it. Free.

 

[DaveMcT]

The hydraulic clutch wears the master cylinder long before the slave cylinder so changing the slave cylinder will not fix the problem. It pulls in air so the clutch can't be released. Bleed the clutch hydraulic system but if its worn, the problem will soon return.

You will need the new master which comes complete with plastic pipe and a QD connector. The slave should also have a pipe and QD connector. Both are prefilled with fluid so all you have to do is fit and connect.

 

[Ralf S.]

I presume by "master cylinder" you mean the small black plastic, usually "L" shaped arrangement inside the engine bay on the bulkhead, above the clutch pedal? If so, then that's not the master cylinder; it's a pump/feeder cylinder used (on RHD cars ?) to operate the real master cylinder which is the metal, bone-shaped component that sticks out of the brake servo (that has the reservoir sitting on it).

Master cylinders very rarely go wrong. The "pump" (which I'd class as a slave) possibly does, although my old Stilo one made it to 130k and even then I only swapped it because it was easier than changing the slave inside the gearbox (which turned out to be the real problem) and I wanted to eliminate the easy one first.

If anything is filled with fluid and you open the end cap and join it to something else connected with fluid, then you will have air in the system. The prefill just makes it a lot easier to bleed.. but you still need to bleed it.

If the mechanc who fitted it also assumed there's no need to bleed it; that's the likely cause of a dragging clutch problem.


Ralf S.

 

[portland_bill]

I presume by "master cylinder" you mean the small black plastic, usually "L" shaped arrangement inside the engine bay on the bulkhead, above the clutch pedal? If so, then that's not the master cylinder; it's a pump/feeder cylinder used (on RHD cars ?) to operate the real master cylinder which is the metal, bone-shaped component that sticks out of the brake servo (that has the reservoir sitting on it).

Some misinterpretations there I'm afraid.
The cylinder at the pedal is always a master cylinder, as it dictates the work to do, as a result of the pedal being pushed. The slave is the one on the far end, that does the work. Hopefully that makes sense when related to master and slave with regard to humans.
Some braking systems use a remote servo, so there are two master cylinders, one at the pedal and one on the servo,but both are masters.

With this car, the small plastic cylinder at the bulkhead is the clutch master cylinder, the metal one at the servo is the brake master cylinder. Only connection shared might be a common reservoir. The brakes applying at each gearchange might be exciting.

Master cylinders very rarely go wrong. The "pump" (which I'd class as a slave) possibly does, although my old Stilo one made it to 130k and even then I only swapped it because it was easier than changing the slave inside the gearbox (which turned out to be the real problem) and I wanted to eliminate the easy one first.

In the UK, we use the term master cylinder. Fiat call it a pump. it is still the same component, and not a slave.
These plastic master cylinders do wear. The plastic piston then gets stiff, firstly squeaking, then later seizing. A bit of trauma when the pedal stays down in the middle of a junction or in heavy traffic, but lifting it with a foot seems to work.

If anything is filled with fluid and you open the end cap and join it to something else connected with fluid, then you will have air in the system. The prefill just makes it a lot easier to bleed.. but you still need to bleed it.

If the mechanc who fitted it also assumed there's no need to bleed it; that's the likely cause of a dragging clutch problem. Ralf S.

I'd agree, even a tiny amount of air is likely to cause a loss of movement.
The aftermarket LUK master for the Panda and 500 comes empty. If it had come pre-filled I would certainly have bled out all the fluid, not knowing how long it had been there. To transport it full it must be sealed, so should not absorb any moisture, but I'd prefer not to trust it.

 

[Ralf S.]

Aye, you're right. I must have been on the drugs when I wrote my reply.

I changed the "pump" (master) and the slave myself on my JTD but I still managed to forgot that the "pump" is the master. Dunno how I thought the brake master cylinder was involved at all.


Ralf S.

 

[DaveMcT]

If the clutch action is poor, bleed the hydraulics. If that lasts then happy days. But they often go soggy again as the master cylinder seals allow air into the system. Replacing the slave alone will make no difference and simply makes work.

The RHD clutch master cylinder used on 500, Panda, Ka and many other models is a plastic "pump" with its own little reservoir located on drivers side of the engine bay. They do wear and of course the other end (slave) will also wear. However, repair parts (e.g.new seals) are not available so when worn seals cause the master to suck in air, there is nothing you can do but replace it. The slave always operates under pressure so the seals will work for longer before there are any signs of trouble.

The slave costs about £30. The master costs at least £70. They are both supplied filled and have a quick release connector to join the pipes when they are fitted to the car. Fit, connect, job done.

You "could" just replace just the master but the QD connector is often corroded and as the slave will be worn (and is not silly expense) you are better to just replace the lot.