Technical Headlamp pods (again)

[RDS]

Hello Scotty

well the weather is still holding but I have not had the top off - what a waste!

I am impressed with your perseverance and your in-depth research. Yes please do check out the wiring diagrams if you are inclined; it will be good resource for others who may read this thread.

The dealer installed immobiliser worked by grounding out the coil via the tacho AND tapped into the hazard flasher circuit using Scotch-locks (tell me they are not invented by Scotts, please!). Removing as much as possible of the connections in the rats next above the fusebox was great fun. Not. As you say this may be a source of the issue.

Turning to the flash to pass and the pods, my memory plays tricks. I tested it on Saturday night and again last night. You are right, pulling back the mainbeam stalk with the lighting switch off and therefore the pods down, does not raise the pods (as I am sure it did before I had the issues) - this is therefore a useless feature in daylight unless one has fitted driving lights using the spare hardness connectors within the pod hatches (as have I). I do not know why I recalled the pods raising unless I am inadvertently recalling a friend's TR7 from many years ago. When I fit the relay bank and Panda switch, I will be interested to see what happens then

My memory is now suspect because over the weekend, I also managed to forget to bring with me my new packet of 4.8mm spade terminals needed for connecting the relay bank to the headlamp slider switch and block connector. Most annoyed.

Regarding the dim-dip ie town setting, I quite like it because in truth in town there is no real need to use anything brighter: the LED street lights are very bright. Anyhow, I used to just use sidelights in my first car way back so this is a slight improvement and will keep the function. As a motorcyclist, I am rather against (mandatory) DRLs because that removes the differentiation between the two transport modes in daylight and the human brain is getting used to dismissing the light as it is constant with negative effects on seeing m/c's approaching: cars pulling out on approaching m/cs is too prevalent.

Interesting political slant on this problem there as well! I never knew that - will be good item to bring up in radio phone-ins where the presenter wants examples of EU interference, to prove his point one way or the other - before being cut off.

Thank you very much for the kind offer but as you say, the practicalities of distance intervene. I do not blame you for fitting a new kit; makes total sense. Nevertheless, immobilisers may not be the whole answer: a friend has had his MG stolen from a residential London street, just like that.

Cheers

RDS

 

[RDS]

http://x19gr.50webs.com/tecnical.htm

Right; time for an update.

I finished the installation of the panda switch and 4 relays today and I CANNOT say in all honestly that I am impressed at all (assuming I have done this correctly - which is very possible) with the outcome.

Alright, so the heat at the switch terminals which I experienced before has indeed reduced slightly, but it has just migrated to where the sub-harness plus into the original terminals.

Also, the new bank of relays themselves get warm (as do the black and light brown relays which are on the far left of the fuse box, shown in picture 11.11 of the Haynes Manual but not shown in the figure 13.13 that lists the cross reference numbers for the relays!).

Further I no longer have the dim-dip function on the new slider switch, and the First “on” Position (after OFF) on the slider switch does nothing.

I also discovered a very melted but functioning headlamp fuse just after my initial "turn on" today. I replaced the fuse and then went for a 20 minute drive this afternoon with headlamps on; the new fuse has not melted. Perhaps the melted fuse resulted after the 40 minute use of headlamps last time the car was driven and is not linked to the new installation.

Oh, and the pods still do not go down.

Questions:
1 heat at the terminals must be caused by resistance, yet these are well fitting correctly sized 4.8mm spades and the terminals have been cleaned with contact cleaner; so why the heat at the terminals?

2 do relays usually throw out heat in operation? They are not searing but are warm.

3 what do the black and brown relays do on the far left of the fuse box, just above the two 7.5 Amp fuses?

4 How do I get the dim-dip function back? I have tried to insert the link to the Panda switch arrangement; but I cannot so the same for my linear interpretation so that I could make a relay bank off the car.

5 slider switch none operation on position 1: it this possibly because I have mistaken which of the switch terminals to use? Ie I should use A3 instead of A2?

6 Pods: I have had these working nicely so do not think it is the diodes; the earths in the hatches are clean. Is this malfunction now also due to the wring terminals of the slider switch being used? Shall I connect the brown or white +12v feed to the blue/white wire for direct application of volts to get the pods to retract?

7 anything spring to mind over the melted fuse? Was it the previous "before relay" arrangement that caused this do you think?

Thanks in advance.

RDS

 

[Scotty1956]

Ok, here goes - after 2 glasses of wine and the French F1 GP;
I have not seen the Panda 4 relay conversion circuit so let me just assume....

I guess the power feed for the relays should come from new, fused +12v cable from the battery and not from the original fiat wiring as it is kinda all around the houses.
Again if done as I imagine it could be, the panda switch could only be carrying just the relays coils current, a few 100's milliampers.
Relays (automotive) coils draw typically around 150mA at 13.5v, I recall, therefore dissipation works out at some 2W so may well feel warm after several minutes.
If not wired with the relays contacts carrying the 10amps then the switch may well warm a little.

To your numbered questions.....
1. The headlight filament current (around 5amp per filament per bulb) should go via the relay contacts and bypass the switch which should carry just the 0.15amps. At that the switch should not get warm.
2. Relays generate ~2watts each.
3. Black & Brown relays - not sure mine are all natural aluminium coloured but let me guess at they may be the dim dip relays feeding via that big open resistor you talked about in the fromp. Think they are fed via a couple of 7.5amp fuses?
4. Dim dip - think one of the relays is fed by a green wire from the headlamp switch but as your circuit is probably kinda complicated cause of these 4 relays and Panda switch!! Its got to be possible to keep dim dip but to me these panda mods are unknown.
5. Not sure
6. Think the pods go up when the Grey/Yellow wire is powered, via another 7.5amp fuse with the pods up Relay fed via a Red/Black wire from the ignition switch, it may have been connected differently with your switch mods? Not sure about directly +12v feeding the pods motors as they are controlled via the up/down relay. Complex
7. Melted fuse - could be anything. Not sure it can be attributed to your switch and relays mods. I tested different makes of fuses back in 86 whilst working in electrical development and for sure they were not all manufactured equal, the best make was Littelfuse although other manufacturers no doubt have automotive OEM quality approved parts nowadays. Poor quality fuses could melt I guess!!, the fuse holder contacts will also play a part in heating it up too. Corrosion and oxidisation of the crimps and fuse contacts with not help here.
All good reasons for diverting heavier currents via their own suitable cables and separate fuses all switched via good relays. The downsides are slightly increased current to feed these relays, additional fuses, extra wires and - the headlamp bulbs won't last as long cause they burn a brighter but shorter life due to the higher voltage. Think that's called cake and eating it!

 

[Scotty1956]

Sorry RDS, just noticed that link to the excellent Greek website, sorry!
Yes ok, IF the relays 1 and 3 have their red wires fed from their own separate fused +12v feed then that would bypass the heavy current from the panda switch.
BUT
Does the main dipped headlamps current still not go via the dip/mainbeam stalk!

 

[RDS]

Hello Scotty - I must say you did very well after wine and sport with those answers!! thank you.

To address the point made by you first: I must confess I used the original white 12v non switched original feed to the switch and looped out from there to the relays and interrupted the 12v switched brown wire to the switch so that it went instead to the relays. This was done in the vain hope to keep the wiring no more complex or bulky than it already is or to stop more wire being trailed across the car.

Using the same enumeration:
1 yes, the switch is cool, the terminals of the original connectors (now not directly connected to the switch were still warm though, so presumably my looping in was not the counsel of perfection and I should have used your idea for two new "clean" fused supplies?

2 relay heat: perhaps I should have left some space between each relay in a row but space was limited. they are mounted on an ally strip however and in no worse an enclosed position than the relays in the fuse box. Perhaps I do not need to be worried at this level of heat therefore

3 yes the relays in question are above the two 7.5 A fuses in the fusebox. more on dim-dip below....

4 "loss of dim dip" well, waddaya know: the instructions for the Panda switch 4-relay conversion were misleading: the terminal marked A1 on the instructions referring to the terminal marked A on the switch, however, A1 actually referred to terminal D on the switch, A2 to C and so on. Moving these connections around then gave me:
side lights with ignition off, slider in position 2 (of three) and also, with the ignition on dim-dip back again, and then normal headlamp on position 3.
HOWEVER no pod movement still.

5 see the solution 4 above. I made a matrix up of all positions of the slider and the terminal connections for both switches. I'd post it here if it helped anyone but am unable to do that.

6 I have not cut out any relays by the insertion of my relay bank and sub harness and so if I have done it correctly the pods should lower. They do not. Your colours do not ring a bell either though. I need to investigate whether there is a voltage supply or return problem at the motors or perhaps a broken leg of a diode that made intermittent contact before.

7 fuse melt: thanks for your experiences insight there. It was indeed the plastic cover of a cheap fuse that melted. The metal was still intact - discarded now though. the board crimps look springy enough and I did squirt them all with contact cleaner the week before.
Maybe I need to take the front of the board off and expose the rear (!) to see what is happening there?

We are getting there slowly (I hope so) rather than getting nowhere fast.

cheers

RDS

 

[Scotty1956]

Hi again,
ok on point 1 - I would say due to the dipped beam headlamps full running current of ~10amp still travelling around the dip/full switch as well as your relay circuit from either the original wiring or an improved feed. That..
You would still be much better off putting a pair of relays in each pod with good fused battery feeds taking the current. Just this mod took my voltage on the bulb pins from 9.6v to 13.4v. The switch currents drop to .1amp and this tends to be the format used for many modern cars thereby allowing the use of very thin space saving and lightweight wiring harness.

2 Relay heat - I wouldn't worry about that, should be designed to automotive temp specs.

4 & 5 Pods down - check there is 12v on the 'down' 7.5amp fuse when they should be going down. If present, you can trace its path but I suspect that 12v signal is missing following your mod? The other 7.5amp fuse should have 12v on it when the pod are rising.

At least the circuit is simple to follow and easy to fix, try doing the same with a microcontroller ECU with unseen software doing black magic things!! That is in my humble why modern cars will struggle to be kept alive in 20, 30, 40 years.
Enjoy.

 

[RDS]

Hi Scotty

1 if I can get some good routing for the clean 12v fused feeds, I would like in due course to follow your advice there; I don't suppose it is possible to "over relay" is it? I ask because I do not want to undo the "new" Panda switch-4 relay set up if i undertake your modification as well.

2 ok ta

4/5 i will make those tests, but last weekend I tested the feed wire to the motors at the switch and DO have 12v there. I also had the pods go up and down after using the main beam for a while. This makes me think there are poor connections somewhere in the original set up. I will look at the various connectors in the pod hatches, earths etc (again) and take the fuse box apart also looking for corrosion or anything that could be the cause of an intermittent contact.

Simple to follow???? The set up is far more complex than the other vehicles I have had the "pleasure" of working on; albeit of course not as bad as the cars you mention. A propos of which I have just looked at an indicator and flash-to-pass issues on a car with the famous Ford-Jaguar SJB - at least the workshop electrical manual on that car tells me where to look with pin-outs etc etc but impossibly complex. That will be right up your street!!

RDS

 

[Scotty1956]

Hi RDS, No, you won't 'over relay' this as your relays are to adapt the function of the Panda switch to suit the needs on the X1/9 headlamps + pods. The ones I was going on about are to improve the quality of the power feeding - directly - the headlamps. You kinda need both solutions. I didn't cause I did the mod before my original headlamp switch was damaged, and now it never will. I also did a 'Brown wire' relay but not really required due to my other relay mods all taking the big currents away from that fuse board.

 

[RDS]

Hello Scotty

Good to hear back from you.

Headlamp relays: yes I think I will have to go down this route eventually but after I have sorted out this weekend's mess (see below) upon which I’d appreciate your expert guidance.

Brown wire mod: is a relay usually involved in this? There seems to be numerous variants of the mod but I thought, at it’s simplest, it was just running another brown wire from the battery though the firewall to the fuseboard , where there is a large spade terminal just waiting to be connected? Thus affording the fuseboard less voltage drop from the feed wires

As for my current mess, I started out yesterday cleaning al the connections in the headlamp hatches, which went well. I then tested the "up" diodes in situ by disconnecting the harness (when cleaning the connectors) and putting the multimeter over the exposed bullet terminals in the pig-tail; continuity one way and not the other: GOOD. The down diodes showed no continuity either way presumably as they were out of circuit given the UP position of the pods.

I then proceeded to take the fuseblock off the fuseboard and make voltage tests by back probing the connectors refused to come out of the back board with reasonable force. I need to repeat the voltage measurements before posting them and it is raining now so I have to leave that for another day.

However, I did find a two Blue/red wires exiting the fuseblock one of which had a Scotch connector through it but no joining wire, and the other wire had a Scotch connector through it and terminating it (this wire exits the fuseblock bottom right when separated from the rear board). Looking at the Haynes schematic I can only find mention of ONE glue/red wire, not two:

1 anyone have any idea what the second blue/red wire is for?

2 anyone know to what the cut wire is to attach to?

3 the Haynes 1500 supplement has numbered (1-23) fuses in the wiring schematics/diagrams but in the specifications section merely lists fuses by letter (24 letters A-Z, leaving out the non-Italian letters J and W), and the fuseboard diagram has in places vague legend/descriptions eg “Services” and “IE” (electronic ignition??). I assume that A=1 and I=9 etc, but does anyone know for sure and have a list of the cross referrals to the legends on the front of the board?

3a the Haynes Schematics show, next to most entries into and exits from the fuseblock certain letters (nb I am not talking about the wiring colours) – are these supposed to match up to the connectors on the back of the fuseboard? If so, I can hardly see anything and wrong by trial and error is not 100% guaranteed given the repetition of colours in different places.

4 still looking at Haynes, what component is the “half square wave” shape shown in the harness feeding the headlight motors (see p193); is it a thermal cut-out? Could this be a cause of my intermittent failure to lower the pods? Is it within the motor widnings?

5 does this engine have an ignition switch relay (cf starter relay)? I cannot see one listed and that feels odd to me.

Manipulating the fuseboard and checking the connectors (unsuccessfully) must have placed a strain on things because I could not start the car upon reassembly; earlier the ignition was on and off in short bursts to allow testing but the coil has not burned out because I can start the car by hot-wiring.

I have traced continuity as best I can in the poor access and all seems ok, apart from the section of pink coil feed wire from the fuseblock to the ignition switch: I just cannot see how I can test it in the harness near the lock (even having removed the plastic cowl). I cannot even see the pink wire at the lock anyway. There is a blue/black wire that exits the ignition lock (after connecting to the pink wire according to Haynes) which is the signal to the tacho. A very fine needle pierce there gives me continuity to the pink wire but again I have not recorded voltages after hot wiring due to rain stopping play. If that test has tested what I hope it has tested, then that means I have good connections from the fuseblock via the ignition switch to the coil……..yet I cannot start the car (it will turn over and I can start via hot wiring).

I will put a list of measured voltages together on my next session but in the meantime, if you have any “go-tos” for the lack of current to the coil, please do say! All assistance gratefully received.

Cheers RDS

 

[RDS]

EDIT of my post above: contrary to what I wrote, the fuses listed in the Haynes 1500 Supplement do not have an entry for fuse E or J; and X and W are not in order (again this makes no sense to me). Therefore I am now more confused than before as to the matching between fuse letters and numbers and pictograms on the fuseblock.

If anyone has the cross-referral list please post it!

cheers

 

[Scotty1956]

Hi RDS, I just could not find the keys to type all this last night, my brain fused!!
Ok, here goes......

Brown wire mod: relay involved? Well, I used a 70amp relay fed by the ign switch so now only .1amp flows through my ign switch. The power comes via an 80amp midi fuse, via the relay and ends up in pin 1 on connector N. So all my misc current not already fed from the other relays arrive via that 70amp relay thereby protecting the Ign switch. This is just my design and may well be commonly used in some form or another by owners out there.


Two Blue/red wires on the fuseblock;
One blue/red wire is on connector D pin 1 - and goes to the electric aerial switch on the centre console.
1 second blue/red - on connector A pin 1 is from the lighting switch and feeds the dipped headlamp fuses.
2 cut wire attach to? - no idea - Gotta assume the scotch locks were someone bodging in for the alarm and found ignition power on them??

3 Haynes numbered (1-23) fuses in wiring schematics v.s. fuses by letter:- think it goes… Fuse 1 = Y 7.5A, Fuse 2 = X 7.5a, Fuse 3 = P 10amp, Fuse 4 = Q 10amp, Fuse 5 = V, Fuse 6 = U, Fuse 7 = R 25amp, Fuse 8 = S, Fuse 9 = K 7.5a RH headlamp motor, Fuse 10 = I 7.5a LH headlamp motor, Fuse 11 = O 7.5a headlamp closing relay, Fuse 12 = H 7.5a headlamp opening relay, Fuse 13 = L, Fuse 14 = M, Fuse 15 = A, Fuse 16 = B, Fuse 17 = C, Fuse 18 = F, Fuse 19 = D, Fuse 20 = T, Fuse 21 = G, Fuse 22 = W, Fuse 23 = N.


3a Haynes show connector letters on the fuseblock & they don’t correspond to ….. Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha !!!!!!!!!
Well spotted, they don't!, it used to have me well confused. Don’t you have a copy of the secret codes? It’s just like when at school you played with writing in secret code having shifted the alphabet 3 to the right! Only not so much fun (please note: I have removed all my expletives here ‘cause I exceeded the 10,000 word reply limit!!)

Circuit drawing - The Letter embossed on back of the fuse board
A. - P
B. - C
D. - D
E. - Q
F. - I
G. - S
H. - A
I. - H
L. - G
M. - O
N. - R
O. - N
P. - E
Q. - B
R. - L

I can’t take any credit for this, I found it somewhere on the web but hats off to whoever documented this and thanks! I have pencilled these real letters on my Haynes diagrams.


4 The “half square wave” shape feeding the headlight motors; thermal cut-out? - Yes, assume you are correct and to be effective it would indeed be near the windings. Warming up the motor may be due to mechanical loading making the motor work harder?

5 ignition switch relay (cf starter relay)? - No, see my first comments where I added one, but the X1/9 doesn’t have a relay and that’s why I guess owners have ign switch issues. Cost plays a big factor with car manufacturers when including nice ideas.

Manipulating the fuseboard no ignition coil power - Ok, the +12v ignition power exits the switch on the Red/Black wire and goes to pin 2 on connector N on the fuse board. This powers all ignition circuits on X1/9s (apart from mine). Inside the fuse board it routes and comes out on pin 8 of connector B as a pink wire, this goes to the coil +ve. By the way, Connector B goes like - from pin 1, Red, Blue, Grey/Black, Purple, Green/White, Grey/Yellow, Grey/Yellow, pin 8 PINK (Ign). (No fuse at all in this Ignition power circuit, and no relay, only the ign switch).
The blue/black wire from ignition lock goes to the inst pack for the alternator light.


Don't know if all that helps at all. The circuits are a nightmare to follow but once you decode and trace each circuit through then it becomes clearer.
Time for some malt to clear my thoughts.....
Alan

 

[RDS]

Dear Alan (Scotty)

many thanks for putting in the time to reply comprehensively to my lengthy post. You are a star.

Nevertheless, I need to print out your reply and annotate my Haynes before my next x1/9 wiring session an to make full sense of what you say and digest. I may write before then also.

Before then I am also watching as many proper youtube videos on fault tracing (mostly American ones it has to be said, few British ones seem posted: SHAME)

The summer will be over before I can sort all this.....but when the car is running well, it really is fun.

Cheers

RDS

 

[Scotty1956]

Ok, no probs.
Please for the love of god, Document any adds / relays / wiring you change as you (or the next owner) will be thankful for that. Also, take too many pics on your phone, I referred back to mine yesterday to confirm which connector was which, saved me dropping the fusebox. You can't over document these things.
PM me your email and I will copy over all these little gems I collected from the internet over the years if you want.

 

[RDS]

Hello again chum

we think alike and i wish all the other enthusiasts would do the same.

I am keeping a file of the mods which will then be annotated on the Haynes schematic when they have settled down.

I have many photos also but they probably only make sense to me given the viewpoint. I even photo the plugs when they come out for comparison later!!

Unfortunately the relay bank is now hidden under the dash drivers side and not easy to retrieve. I did take photos of it before it went in and drew it all out too.

TTFN

RDS

 

[RDS]

Hello Scotty

Many thanks for your input.

Before I describe the current situation (ignition and lighting problems) which may be linked in a strange way, I have a few comments on your very useful information, without which the progress would have been much harder. Hopefully some of this will help others also. I try to keep to the numbering already used in the previous posts.

1 Several blue/red wires on the fuseblock; the problem is that age/dirt etc has blurred the differentiation between come colours.:
a) the darker blue and red wire (which you say is connected to embossed pin D1, ie noted on the Haynes diagram as D1 also), designated colour LR starts off with darker blue bands and then, through a connector, turns into a red stripe on a dark blue wire. Thankfully, I had labelled that end up ages ago when fitting the new radio as “electric aerial power”. This is therefore not the wire that mystifies me.
b) light blue wire designated AR goes to embossed Pin D4, ie diagram D4 then goes to the lighting switch then per the Haynes diagram 13.14 peters out, and instead follows a convoluted path in diagram 13.16.
c) darker blue/red wire designated LR goes as you say, to embossed pin A1 ie diagram H1
I do not know for sure what the cut wire is supposed to do and therefore will have to see if there is any voltage when the lighting switch is in each of its positions with the ignition on. I do not see any detached wire that is the other part of the severed wire. The only simple way would be to compare with someone else’s part-disassembled fusebox.

3 Haynes Numbered fuses
I have transferred the “code shift” to the Haynes however your fuse 7 troubles me. You have it as A 25amp yet Haynes (by process of elimination using all the other fuses) has it as 7.5A protecting the feed to clock, direction indicators etc.
Any chance you could look at your source again to confirm please?

I will continue with the lighting and ignition issues in another post.

Cheers

RDS

 

[RDS]

Edit of the previous post: fuse 7 is noted as being fuse R rated at 25amps whereas Haynes has it as a 7.5am fuse.

 

[RDS]

Turning now to what I saw in my session at the weekend:

upon switching on the ignition to “run” (don’t forget I have no power to coil, I return to this in another post to keep things simple) I saw that the sidelights front and rear were “on”, this was whether or not the Panda headlamp switch was on or off positions.

Even when removing the white and brown 12v feeds to the switch, this sidelights remained on. The only way to turn them off for the purpose of investigation was to remove the two 7.5A fuses.

Something has gone terribly wrong here and, with the non-operative light pods, I think I will have to strip out the extra relays and revert to the standard switch and lighting arrangement pending resolution of one issue at a time. Do you agree? However, reinstating the original switch made no difference to the non-operation of the light pods or to the newly discovered “always on” operation of the sidelights.

After I strip out the extra relays and before remaking everything, my idea is:

1 disconnect the headlight pod motors from the loom entirely and apply 12v and a ground to each of them to see if they operate properly as stand-alone units then reconnect them if they work

2 take out each of the headlight cover relays E5 and E2 from their sockets, insert extension wires with spade terminals and

2a test for 12v to terminal 87 (low current terminal) on each relay, then re-test at fuses 10 |(ie letter I) and 9 (ie letter K)

2b test for 12v to terminal 85 (high current terminal) ion each relay, if none, then apply 12v using the Power Probe tool to see if the pods operate

3 disconnect the green/white wires to connectors C3 and C8 in the headlight hatch areas and apply 12v to them, reconnect

4 test for 12v at fuse 15 (ie letter A) and 18 (ie letter F) in both “Off position” and “dim-dip position” and “headlight position”

Surely this will flush out where the problems are?

If I can solve that, then I will re-check the panda-switch relay arrangement, though I am tempted to go back to the original switch and use Scotty’s preferred use of relays in the hatch areas instead.

Thoughts gratefully received

RDS

 

[Scotty1956]

Hi again RDS, I will reply to your other recent posts once I have digested and thought about it.
I too photographed each connector on the back of the fusebox! Mainly because I hadn't seen the secret codes and had to understand them by the wire colours into each connector!
Happy to send you these pictures if you think it would help.

 

[Scotty1956]

Fuse 7. labeled as fuse R Services. - yes, there is an annotation in the Bertone electrical stuff, it is noted to be now a 25amp fuse.
It is a 7.5amp in my car however.
I have not analysed that circuit yet in detail to understand why 25amp is required rather than the 7.5amp. The fusing philosophy used in power distribution is protect the cables and not the appliance. So the fuse mustn't melt when feeding a bulb and the wire should be capable of carrying the fault current until the fuse (or circuit breaker) acts. A fairly complex subject.

 

[RDS]

Hi again RDS, I will reply to your other recent posts once I have digested and thought about it.
I too photographed each connector on the back of the fusebox! Mainly because I hadn't seen the secret codes and had to understand them by the wire colours into each connector!
Happy to send you these pictures if you think it would help.

Hello Scotty

yes please! deffo, deffo deffo!

I was thinking of painting white the embossed letters to make them more visible - ages is playing up with my sight.

I need to get to grip with this. and thank you for ruminating over my longwinded posts. The reason I go into detail is that it makes the experts diagnose better AND also hopefully aids others who come along later with their problems and who can then see the the whole story and process of investigation.

Cheers

RDS