Technical Head removal to replace valve - Engine out? Timing tool?

[agisthos]

I had a bad ECU that was misfiring and then caused an intake valve to get burnt/bent. I have had this Punto since new in 2013 and its very well maintained in every other aspect so am going to to fix it. I do love this car. And the supply shortage has caused decent cheap 2nd hand cars to literally double in price here in Australia, making it actually cost effective to fix, unlike in normal times (are those times ever coming back?).

Engine is the basic 1.4L 8v

But looking at stuff online and in this forum, it seems the intake manifold is a PITA to take off due to the underside bolts and many end up taking the engine out. I dont want to do that. We have access to a car lift. Given that - can these bolts be reached when coming from underneath?

Here is a pic of a youtube video and the 1.4L multi-air engine. I presume the intake manifold is mostly the same on the multi-air vs normal 8v engine.

Now to doing timing.... the post 2012 fiat naturally aspirated engines are a VVT engine correct?
My engine is the 350A1.000

Which of these tools is used for setting the timing?
https://www.condorwerkzeug.de/webka.../$catalogue/pragerData/PR/36400SP/index.xhtml
https://www.kroftools.com/en/engine-timing-tools/timing-tool-fiat-ford-lancia-1.2-1.4-8v_p706.html

The issue is many of the Fiat timing tool kits only state Punto (07-12), making you wonder if indeed the tool can be used on 2012- models. But as you all would know the 2012+ Punto is like a ghost model, often left out of many spec sheet and OEM lists.

But maybe the Fiat 1.4 8V engine really did change from year 2008 to year 2013?
So it would be good to definitively confirm what is the CORRECT tool to use for setting the timing.

If there is anything else you think I should know about head removal on this car by all means post it, because even a search on this forum is not showing up much.

 

[varesecrazy]

Hi

Its still basically a Grande

Remove the the head with both manifolds on..

Then recut the valve seat

Im not convinced you need to disturb the manifolds

 

[GrandePunto PL]

Ordinary 8V engines can be done with only 2 timing tools. Crank and camshaft locks. No need for full set, fancy suitcase.
There is a timing belt Guide on this forum (check it, also "discussion" tab, a lot of extra info, tools drawings etc.)...

If you have a "problem" removing the manifolds, head gasket/valves job is not for you. This is normal part of the job, not "a problem".
And you should mess with them, to check the studs (exhaust manifold ones are prone to cracking and exhaust leak can spoil the performance of the engine).

Misfiring so bad that it caused valves/seats to burn, should be noticeable, unstable idle, car shaking - therefore your car is (was) not "well maintained".
Someone ignored the symptoms of bad combustion and just drove the car to death...

 

[agisthos]

Ordinary 8V engines can be done with only 2 timing tools. Crank and camshaft locks. No need for full set, suitcase.
There is a timing belt Guide on this forum (check it, also "discussion" tab, a lot of extra info, tools drawings etc.)...

If you have a "problem" removing the manifolds, head gasket/valves job is not for you. This is part of the job, not "a problem".
And you should mess with them, to check the studs (exhaust manifold ones are prone to cracking and exhaust leak can spoil the performance of the engine).

Misfiring so bad that it caused valves/seats to burn, should be noticeable, unstable idle, car shaking - therefore your car is (was) not "well maintained".

I do not appreciate your condescending attitude. I am doing prep research for my mechanic. And the head will be going away to a specialist to have all 8 valve seats lapped and ground. Its pointless to only replace one of them after all the work to get the head off.

And yes I have already read about the exhaust manifold studs breaking and being an issue - multiple times on this forum. I went as far as purchasing a new set of exhaust studs last year waiting for the next major service to install them, which will be now.

And you have no idea how the valve bent. A bad coilpack totally fried the ECU on a highway drive. After getting the ECU rebuilt, which resolved 80% of the issue, I found there was still a very slight misfire at low rpm and cold start. We then performed a leak down test to identify where and what. Please explain how you think 'maintenance' could have avoided this issue? I am all ears for your wisdom.

 

[bugsymike]

As you say the price and availability of vehicles where you are makes it well worth having a go and if you take your time and a few photos along the way, most of it isn't rocket science. If bolts do break the engine specialist can soon do that job.
By the way if the issues caused it to run hot the valve may well have seized in the guide rather than bending, so not much you could have done about that.
I had a customer whose nearly new Main Dealer serviced three cylinder Vauxhall Corsa had developed a misfire driving up the motorway, caused by a known Vauxhall issue of tight valve guide/valve stem clearance some years ago, it also melted the plastic inlet manifold, the dealer tried to sell them first a new engine, then a new car and in the end I repaired it, so they never went back to that dealer!

 

[agisthos]

I spoke to the main Fiat/Alpha Romeo service agent in my city and he said after working for 5 different car manufacturers he has seen damaged valves on these new Fiats a lot more than is normal. I'm not sure if I should get stock Fiat replacement valves or ones that are slightly uprated/stronger. Not sure if that is even possible, or even desirable, with this engine.

 

[bugsymike]

I spoke to the main Fiat/Alpha Romeo service agent in my city and he said after working for 5 different car manufacturers he has seen damaged valves on these new Fiats a lot more than is normal. I'm not sure if I should get stock Fiat replacement valves or ones that are slightly uprated/stronger. Not sure if that is even possible, or even desirable, with this engine.

I would rely on your engine/cylinder head reconditioner as they will have more knowledge.

 

[GrandePunto PL]

So you're doing a "research" for your mechanic? Right... BS detector in red zone.
Why don't you leave the details to him?
Why you worry about manifold studs/nuts for him? Real mechanic will handle it.
Removing a manifold IS NOT "a problem" at all, kid.

Also timing belt tools are not your business if pro mechanic will do the whole job.

I don't believe ONE (single) highway drive can burn the valve! And there were no noticeable problems, like noise, vibrations.
Speaking of valves. All FIRE 8V have manual valve clearance (shims). Have you ever checked this? This is basic maintenance.

Conclusion. Your story doesn't add-up. You are doing excessive research for a guy who is giving the car to the mechanic.
You don't give the important technical details (you must be almost insulted to spit those out).

This is not a popular car/brand/model in Australia. We (rest of the world) know those cars better. Don't try to be smart.
Don't try to "win" this topic (that's not the point)...

 

[varesecrazy]

Im not convinced this is generally a Common Failure..

Obviously you are on the opposite side of the planet to me.. conditions..and fuel wont be the same

But the 500's are not suffering from this anywhere on the planet..( GP and Punto are not big sellers here as they are basically @2005 tech.. )
But the similar tech 500 is a massive seller.. and valve work seldom gets a mention


So youve probably just been unlucky..

What were the valve clearances at its last service ( might have hinted at some degradation..)

 

[agisthos]

So your arrogance, condescending and treating people like an idiot is just your style!
OK knowing that I wont take it personal, let's continue..

This is not a popular car/brand/model in Australia. We (rest of the world) know those cars better. Don't try to be smart.
Don't try to "win" this topic (that's not the point)...

Yes this is absolutely correct. The late Punto was ultra rare and even the Fiat 500 barely sold any in Australia. I am not trying to be smart - that is why I am here.

I have two cars that any small mechanic garage here struggles with because they have never worked on them before - the daily driver Punto and my Sunday car - a BMW E30. One rare and other too old. Many of the parts are not even in stock in the country and need to be imported, not only for the E30 but for the Punto. For example, Fiat Australia does not even keep a single injector in stock for this engine in the country, unbelievable.

So for my local mechanic I provide all oem diagrams, parts list, do the parts ordering, research potential PITA issues, and have it all prepared for him before booking the car in. He loves it as the jobs then become very easy for him, and he charges accordingly, i.e I save a lot of money.

The only workshop that knows these Fiats is the official one, and they have a lock on the Aus market and charge as if Fiat is Mercedes.
I will give you an example - to just diagnose this issue i.e run a compression test then a leak down test, they demanded minimum 2-2.5 hours labor for compression, then 3.5 hrs for the leakdown test. At $200 AUD per hour, that is over $1100 AUD, or about 700 euro. That's just to run those two tests, not even start fixing anything.

It sound outrageous but all euro cars are like this for mechanical work here, for some reason.

My local mechanic did both compressions and leak down test for $160 AUD. But then he does not know the rest, and that's why I am here.

 

[bugsymike]

Fiat along with most Main Dealers across the World "charge like a raging bull" as many on this Forum have mentioned. Unfortunately price doesn't always equate to quality.
To be honest now retired after many years running a small car repair business it was great for me, it meant that my customers were loyal to me and appreciated my work as no doubt your "local mechanic" finds also.
I said to my two sisters who don't live local to me, find yourself a good garage and stick to them, much in the same way it makes sense to find a good tradesman for work around your home.
Companies that have to rely on National Advertising to attract customers have no respect for repeat business, but seem to work on the approach of "spank everyone" as the public are so stupid they will keep coming back!
Only a couple of days ago an old customer rang for advice though he knew I had retired four years ago, after about 15 minutes of talking on the phone I was able to diagnose the problem relating to his diesel injector pump and talk him through fixing it, the same evening he rang to say it was now all running fine thanks.
I am certainly not going to die a rich man, but the job satisfaction of being able to repair things kept me in the trade since 1969 never bored with the job.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I think part of the problem for "the big boys" is their overheads. One of the small garages I worked in - The DAF agent - was located in a quite quaint "country" style premises. An older brick built pitch roof building with pumps out the front and a showroom big enough for only 3 cars with one large plate glass window - very 1950's. Many of our customers mentioned how they were attracted to the "old world charm" of our premises, to say nothing of the "old world values" of the staff and owner. The business had been there for years, looked smart and operated very successfully with a good return business from customers.

Then, when DAF cars were bought out by another large manufacturer, we were told that we had to "improve" our image. The boss took a humongous loan from the bank, demolished our old buildings and erected a steel framed modern, totally anonymous, replacement. The big branch of the afore mentioned manufacturer, not far down the road from us, started selling the DAFs and, apart from a small band of loyal customers, "stole" our customer base. We couldn't compete and the boss, after unsuccessfully biding for a deal with Alfa (I got all excited under the collar about that) switched our agency to an iron curtain manufacturer which was an absolute disaster. I moved on and soon afterwards learned the business had sold up and the site is now occupied by a block of flats!

The point is that to keep up with "the big boys" you've got to spend lots of cash on stuff like luxurious showrooms, advertising, kerbside appeal, etc, etc. The result is you end up with enormous rates bills etc so you have to charge "silly money" just to open someone's bonnet.

So, as Mike says above, find a small local business with a good reputation, in my experience these seldom have car sales as a priority and are often tucked away from the main thoroughfares. Big nationally advertised setups can be very good but it depends on the mechanic you end up with working on your car as they also seem to attract more than the average number of less able workers? Personally I'd never go anywhere near one which advertised cut price MOTs.

 

[agisthos]

Then, when DAF cars were bought out by another large manufacturer, we were told that we had to "improve" our image. The boss took a humongous loan from the bank, demolished our old buildings and erected a steel framed modern, totally anonymous, replacement. The big branch of the afore mentioned manufacturer, not far down the road from us, started selling the DAFs and, apart from a small band of loyal customers, "stole" our customer base. We couldn't compete and the boss, after unsuccessfully biding for a deal with Alfa (I got all excited under the collar about that) switched our agency to an iron curtain manufacturer which was an absolute disaster. I moved on and soon afterwards learned the business had sold up and the site is now occupied by a block of flats!

It's just devastating hearing this sort of thing, especially if a family firm took a big loss trying to do that upgrade.

 

[bugsymike]

It's just devastating hearing this sort of thing, especially if a family firm took a big loss trying to do that upgrade.

The Mazda Dealership I used to work for had to buy a load of stock including body panels as part of their startup package, most of it so obscure it was still in stock when they closed down many years later.
The Corporate Image doesn't fit in with the village garage that locals have trusted for decades.