Technical Has me bewildered!

[Waste King Ltd]

Hi all,
Just registered in the hope that some of you guys can help me diagnose a very odd problem with my girlfriends Fiat Bravo 1998 1.4 12v SX.
Short History
6 weeks ago she found oil seeping through the front grill, called the AA who though it was the rocker gasket, upon steam clean and check this was not the problem.
10 days ago had a call from her, smell of oil and smoke whilst on the motorway. Shot down to her and found that the dip stick had popped out causing oil once again going everywhere but at least this solves the first incident! Guessing we have a blocked oil breather somewhere?
Temporary fix using tie wraps works well!!
Call from her yesterday morning just before her interview saying the car was making a loud screeching sound, which stopped after a minute or so then the car died and would not start again... heard the engine over the phone and sounded like it was misfiring. AA man called who reports a broken cam belt and advises a trip to the garage.
Upon inspection belt seems fine and in okay condition?
Oil checked and ok, all appears normal... ask her to turn the car over and a god almighty screeching and metallic knocking sound comes internally from the block?
Never come across this before, any ideas or similar experiences greatly appreciated!
I’m thinking -
- Belt has jumped some teeth, engine knackered
- Oil pump gone, no oil and hearing metal against metal

Thanks again and look forwards to any comments

Andy

 

[aurick86]

Had a similar problem with my 1.4 12v,
This a general problem of this engine
It is like this:
the cam shaft gets oiled from a pipe with holes that often gets blocked up with filth from the engine
you should get it cleaned out
as well as what is under the [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]rocker cover ( mine had a lot of hardened oil residue )[/FONT]
change the oil filter oil
and use a flushing substance..
maybe that solves your problem
maybe the cam shaft is ok .. it had run with out oil and that usually brings with damage ( hope not)
I think that most of the oil pipes are blocked resulting in enough pressure to push out the dip-stick
The oil pump could still work since it made enough pressure to push out the dip-stick


Mine did this to me while on my way home from Berlin ( about 1900 km to Bucharest )
when I arrived it was pretty loud and there was a knocking sound to.. solved it with a good cleaning of the engine, many engine flushes, 3-4 oil changes ( not the best oil since I used it for only 300-400 km each time), new oil filters ( cheap ones .. same reason)
I have 10 k km since , and there are no signs of other problems apart from the slight damage to the cam shaft ( to expensive to replace)


Hope this helps, let us know how it goes...

 

[bravo project]

exact same happened to me mate and advice would be not to run anymore until u can clean the spray bar and pick up pipe. a valuable tip i learnt from the lads on here is to keep a spare spray bar in your shed soaking in spirits but it has to be constantly soaking or youll get problems. then replace at service time...simples!

that will sort your screeching out and make it feel a whole lot better

 

[bluejohn125]

You don't say if you topped up the oil after the 1st 2 incidents of it spraying all over the engine....

It sounds like it could be the classic camshaft lube problem, as described by the other posters, if so and you are lucky then you may get away with just a worn camshaft and the car should be useable once you clean everything out. If the camshaft actually seized then you may have jumped teeth on the timing belt and caused damage.

It's never a good idea to ignore problems with lubrication or cooling, or indeed to run an engine that is making awful noises.....

 

[Waste King Ltd]

Thank you very much so far, have the fingers crossed that it is oil starvation and that a good autumn clean will allow resolve the problem without too much damaged caused already.
I will of course keep you updated, looking to get the hands dirty this Saturday J

 

[Waste King Ltd]

Hi all,
First of all many thanks for you advise, upon the check over it does seem to be the blocked oil feeder. However, upon a quick clean then bolting back on it worked great for 2 minutes then it’s blocked again! :bang:
As I can only get to work on the car at the weekends I’ve taken it back home with me for a good soak in petrol. Do you think this will fix it, or does anyone know of any tricks of the trade!?
Just wondering too if the garage she took it too for a oil change used a 20/40 or something which is causing the oil starvation so will be using a engine oil flush and change once the feeder is back on filling her up with something like 10/40?
I’ve also notice one hell of a ticking... it appears to be the far right hand side of the block. There are bar type things that sit on top of the tappets? These are very lose and can be moved around unlike the rest the them? Can these be adjusted?
Many thanks again

 

[Waste King Ltd]

Please see the 'things' I mean!

 

[yawge]

think you may have just solved what the problem was with my 1.4! Still need to know is it worth fixing as it seems to be a recurrent problem with these engines... Good luck with yours, keep us posted

https://www.fiatforum.com/bravo-brava/214543-horrible-knocking-noise-under-throttle-body-bravo.html

 

[Adrian Bravo]

Waste King I am sorry to say but your camshaft and the cam followers are destroyed through oil starvation.

That silvery paste is ground metal. The lobes should be flat all the way across horizontally, but you can see lips on either side of yours.

At the very least you will need a new camshaft and some or all of the cam followers. Then the original oil starvation problem needs fixing perhaps oil pump, or the sprayer bar since the gearbox side looks better. Then the problem of all that ground metal that is in your engine right now. The ground metal has most likely damaged different machined surfaces like the the camshaft caps. It is not going to be cheap.

The tappets are hydraulic and self adjusting, if they fail you can only replace them. The bar's on top of the tappets are cam followers, they are so loose because they have ground down and the camshaft lobes have ground down. 10/40 Semi synthetic oil should be used in this engine.

 

[rallycinq]

Please see the 'things' I mean!

Waste King I am sorry to say but your camshaft and the cam followers are destroyed through oil starvation.

Adrian is absolutely right. Its going to be a lot of work to get that engine right again. Touch and go whether another engine might be the better alternative.

Cheers

SPD

 

[ShaunCo]

i had that with mine, so dropped a 1.6 in there, far better engine

 

[aurick86]

Mine didn't look much better, I'm sorry i didn't take some pics
Adrian said something : "
That silvery paste is ground metal. The lobes should be flat all the way across horizontally, but you can see lips on either side of yours"

Most of that is oil gunk ( you could try removing it with a screwdriver - that's what i did, also used a whire brush ( take care not to let the junk go in the engine ) )

The flowers might have to be replaced..

What you could do before starting to throw money at it:
With the cover off, start the engine, expect oil to get everywhere ( use some rags)
Get a bottle with engine oil, and as the engine turns pore oil from the bottle on the camshaft,
if the noise stops, it might still be usable,
sure your engine will never run asa smooth .. but it might be good enough...
At least that is what I did, and I have 10000 km +
TRY IT !!!


The best thing might be to replace the engine or better the whole car with something else .

 

[rallycinq]

1998 car, if owned for more than a year, it looks like scrappage time.

Cheers

SPD

 

[bluejohn125]

If there's no oil getting up to the camshaft, hopefully no metal will have been washed into the engine. Clean up the top of the engine, drain the oil again.

Then see if you can figure out why there is no oil circulation, and hope that at least the engine block / crankshaft etc. was getting some lubrication.

If you can get oil to the cam etc. you should at least be able to get the car running, that will tell you if the engine is saveable or wrecked.

As mentioned before, a 1.6 transplant is possible.

 

[yawge]

Hi all, if on mine (same as this one) as suspected the camshaft is badly worn and the valves all crapped up as a result, would a new cylinder head and camshaft do the job?? Or is a new engine job? I got a quote for £120 from 24/7 - is it worth it or should i just scrap the car?

 

[Yazza54]

My my that is a mess. Try picking up a second hand complete head off ebay or a scrappy. Can't cost much as they aren't worth much...could say the same about the car though...up to you to decide whether it's worth the bother. Depends also if any metal filings have gone in the engine, however as mentioned it'll be more like a paste rather than large damaging piece of metal. Touch wood the rest of the motor may be okay. Must be terrible performance wise too, lost a load of valve lift!

 

[Yazza54]

Mine didn't look much better, I'm sorry i didn't take some pics
Adrian said something : "
That silvery paste is ground metal. The lobes should be flat all the way across horizontally, but you can see lips on either side of yours"

Most of that is oil gunk ( you could try removing it with a screwdriver - that's what i did, also used a whire brush ( take care not to let the junk go in the engine ) )

The flowers might have to be replaced..

What you could do before starting to throw money at it:
With the cover off, start the engine, expect oil to get everywhere ( use some rags)
Get a bottle with engine oil, and as the engine turns pore oil from the bottle on the camshaft,
if the noise stops, it might still be usable,
sure your engine will never run asa smooth .. but it might be good enough...
At least that is what I did, and I have 10000 km +
TRY IT !!!


The best thing might be to replace the engine or better the whole car with something else .

So you think he should just pour oil onto the camshaft every now and then inbetween trips?

 

[yawge]

replacement complete head from 24/7 spares £70 cheapest quote - doesn't seem too bad - but i presume i need to change the head bolts? (and the gaskets,obviously) - anything else to watch out for??

 

[Yazza54]

replacement complete head from 24/7 spares £70 cheapest quote - doesn't seem too bad - but i presume i need to change the head bolts? (and the gaskets,obviously) - anything else to watch out for??

Could give the bores a clean, change the oil incase any crap from upstairs has got into it, and gaskets and bolts too. I'd flush the coolant out and renew that too seen as though you'll have it all apart.

 

[aurick86]

So you think he should just pour oil onto the camshaft every now and then inbetween trips?

NO, not at all,
that was so he can hear the engine
to see if it still has the horible knoking noise
That tip was only to make a diagnostic.


More on that make sure you tighten the bolts well...
one of the bolts holding down the oil pipe that squirts oil, got loose on mine 1.4 and that left it with a lovely engine squieak got it sorted for the moment