Technical hard brake lines

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Technical hard brake lines

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Apr 15, 2011
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I've managed to break the metal brake line on one of my rear brakes while trying to disconnect it from the cylinder. Any advice on what kind of line to get to replace it? I appear to have a choice between copper, steel, and whatever these are: https://webshop.fiat500126.com/en/b...ses-und-lines/brake-line-assembly-long-nipple

I know that copper is easier to bend than steel, but is there a disadvantage to copper? It also appears that whatever Axel Gerstl is selling is flexible, but is there a disadvantage to it?

Thanks.
 
NiCopp line is easiest to deal with and looks like pure copper. Will be indistinguishable from what’s there. But you’d have to cut, bend and flare the ends and make sure your fittings are in good shape. If you can find that little run of line premade as a replacement part, that will be much faster and easier to deal with. Not sure of the condition of your other lines, but since you have to rebleed it all anyway, now is the time to refresh them all if they are very old.
 
It's not advisable to use pure copper, as it will work harden over time as it flexes and can become brittle.

Kunifer / Cupro Nickel / NiCopp / Copper Nickle (whichever of the many names you want to call it!) is much better as it had all the advantages of copper with none of the disadvantages.
 
I would also lean towards the Cupro Nickel brake lines. Its easier to bend, and has the corrosion resistance that standard steel lines dont.
If you want to go lifetime, stainless is also an option, but is a major pain to work with.

The Axel Gerstl ones you listed, just look like plain steel coated lines. Typically the Cupro lines are uncoated, and are a bronze/copper colour.
 
Hi rusty. I appreciate you're in "The States" so supply and availability, to say nothing of local preference and legal restrictions, will no doubt be somewhat different to us hear in "Blighty". Copper tubing 4.75mm (3/16 inch) is very popular over hear and seems to be what you are offered when you just ask for "brake pipe" at the local Factor (trade store) - it comes in 25ft rolls. Most of the local small garages seem to use it. Pure, unalloyed, copper is legal over here but not in some European countries or, I believe, in some of your States? It's big advantage is it's pretty soft, so flaring is easy with quite cheap tools being available and corrosion is not the problem it is with steel. It is easily bent to shape but work hardens easily so can't be bent more than once without weakening but can be easily annealed (resoftened) if necessary with a torch. I've read terrible tales of pipes which have work hardened over several years of vibrating on the vehicle subsequently shearing and loosing all the fluid. I've never actually come across this during my extensive life in and around the motor trade and I can't believe the British governing bodies would certify a product for use in this application if any real danger existed. So, as long as you buy copper pipe in a pack labeled as "brake pipe", I think it's fine. I tend to use it for short runs where a lot of twists and turns are needed and will say again that I've never seen a problem, even on some vehicles I've owned personally for 20 years or more.

For all other situations - long front to rear pipes for instance where copper pipes are likely to sag unless additional support is provided - I prefer Cupro Nickel. It's a bit harder so more difficult to flare and bend but holds it's shape nearly as well as steel so usually no additional supports are needed. You are likely to find that most "DIY" grade flaring tools will cope with it too. If I were to choose just one material it would be Cupro Nickel (often called "Kunifer" over here).

Steel pipe is actually quite rare to find readily available in store. It has quite a few down sides for the home mechanic, especially in regard to forming shapes and flaring. So, if you do manage to buy it you're then going to need a professional grade tool to flare it. Many of the steel products intended for use on braking systems are plastic coated to prevent/delay corrosion. A great idea but the trouble is you've got to scrape the coating off the ends so the forming tool can grip the pipe for flaring. Then the pipe rusts rapidly where the coating was disturbed making putting any sort of coating on it pointless in the first place! A pipe with no corrosion over it's entire length but heavy corrosion around the tube nuts is useless. I just don't buy steel tubing at all.

If you're going to buy a flaring tool look for one that can do steel tubing though. It'll last just about for ever on stuff like copper and Kunifer and it gives you the option of slicing into an existing steel pipe on the vehicle where most of that original pipe is in good order and flaring an end on it so you can fit a patch length to replace the little bit that was rusted. Also, on our vehicles over this side of the pond, most now have DIN form flares. Older vehicles had SAE. I wouldn't be surprised if SAE is still popular over there with you? If you were living over here I'd be recommending something like this: https://www.frost.co.uk/brake-pipe-flaring-tool-set/ which has the considerable advantage that, not only will it "do" steel but can also be easily used on pipes still fitted to the vehicle.

Last word, If you're not going to get enough use out of buying a set of flaring tools for yourself many garages and factors etc over here will make pipes up for you if you can take them the old pipe. There's not a lot of labour involved - the difficult bit is shaping and fitting to the vehicle - so it can make sense to do it this way. On the other hand, if you've a lot of mates who "fiddle" with cars, you can make pipes up for them for a small premium and soon recover the cost of the tools - and make yourself popular into the bargain?

So, go on, buy yourself a good quality flaring tool - you know you want to! I get great pleasure out of making and fitting brake pipes - not quite so much trying to undo really rusted old ones! If you get good at it, lying under the car admiring the nice straight sections with neat bends and all nice and shiny new? Very satisfying indeed!

PS. As our Canadian friend has said above, I think those lines shown in the advert are plastic coated steel lines. If so you are unlikely to be able to bend them without a forming tool to bend them around. Like this sort of thing: https://www.frost.co.uk/brake-pipe-and-tube-bender/ If you try to bend them freehand or round something like a screwdriver handle - which is possible, with caution, with cupro nickel and especially copper - the pipe will likely kink and collapse and/or sustain damage to the plastic coating. I especially like this design as it doesn't have a forming part which "wipes" along the pipe so causes minimal disruption to the sidewall of the pipe: https://www.lasertools.co.uk/Product/6971/Brake-Pipe-Bending-Pliers Been meaning to buy one for years but never got round to it.
 
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Wow. So much good advice! Thank you. Most important thing I am taking away is that I didn't realize that anyone sold actual copper brake lines any more. I was assuming the products listed as copper are actually NiCopp, but I guess I need to check. Since I'm buying brake line assemblies, I don't need to worry about flaring, just bending, and I expected to need a bending tool anyway.

So, what I'm taking away from this if I'm buying an assembly and don't have to worry about flaring then the preferences are (first) NiCopp and (second) Steel. There doesn't seem to be any reason to get pure copper.
 
Yes, I'd go for Cupro nickel every time. Here is the labeling from a roll of copper and a roll of cupro nickel in my garage right now. The rated pressures alone speak volumes!

P1080170.JPG


P1080168.JPG
 
As far as flaring tool go.. I realize that most dont want the cost of a simple repair to spiral out of control. But sometimes its not hard to convince/justify lol another tool.

After spending many years playing around with one of those cheap manual flare tools. Which was always a crapshoot 50% chance you would get a usable flare out of it.

Last year i invested in something to save me from grey hairs.

Mastercool_71475[1].jpg


It wasn't overly expensive imo (150$ cad? iirc), but does all the standard flares (metric/imp) (single/double), as well as all the specialty flares for efi lines and the such.
There are many different re-brands of this same tool, but its just a decent quality shenzen import for most of our regions.

Might be worth a look at if you have a aging fleet of cars, and live in a corrosive environment. Ive done many flares with it in the past year, and it has worked as expected.
 
I'm back to this thread again because I ended up buying my own flare tool and cupro-nickel tube, as suggested above. However, I've run into a problem. I ordered M10x1.0mm "tube nuts" to put on my brake lines. However, the nuts I bought are not threading properly into my flex hoses and cylinders. It appears that the threads on the nuts I ordered are finer than on the ones that came off. Do our old Fiats require a different spec from M10x1.0MM? If so, what should be looking for?
 
I'm back to this thread again because I ended up buying my own flare tool and cupro-nickel tube, as suggested above. However, I've run into a problem. I ordered M10x1.0mm "tube nuts" to put on my brake lines. However, the nuts I bought are not threading properly into my flex hoses and cylinders. It appears that the threads on the nuts I ordered are finer than on the ones that came off. Do our old Fiats require a different spec from M10x1.0MM? If so, what should be looking for?
I've not had that problem on any of the Pandas I've owned including the 1992 Panda Parade. I started working on BMC cars back in the mid '60s and was working on them for my living by the late 70's. all the earlier stuff used imperial threads but when the Austin Allegro appeared on the scene it was not unusual to find it had imperial threaded calipers on the front and metric wheel cylinders on the rear! this caused no end of problems until we all got used to it. I have a box of good used and new tube nuts, some of which definitely date back to those days, and also some new metric male nuts in two lengths - because very occasionally you will find they've used a "long" nut, often on an ABS unit. I've just checked them all with a tread guage and every one is a 1.00mm pitch.

Although, back in the 60's, I helped a friend look after their 500 I'm not otherwise familiar with the "classic" 500 so I can't speak with authority but I'm wondering, because you're in America where imperial threads are still often found? Is there any possibility that a non standard cylinder/flex hose with imperial threads has been substituted at some time in the past as a solution to unavailability of the correct item?
 
Hi rusty. I appreciate you're in "The States" so supply and availability, to say nothing of local preference and legal restrictions, will no doubt be somewhat different to us hear in "Blighty". Copper tubing 4.75mm (3/16 inch) is very popular over hear and seems to be what you are offered when you just ask for "brake pipe" at the local Factor (trade store) - it comes in 25ft rolls. Most of the local small garages seem to use it. Pure, unalloyed, copper is legal over here but not in some European countries or, I believe, in some of your States? It's big advantage is it's pretty soft, so flaring is easy with quite cheap tools being available and corrosion is not the problem it is with steel. It is easily bent to shape but work hardens easily so can't be bent more than once without weakening but can be easily annealed (resoftened) if necessary with a torch. I've read terrible tales of pipes which have work hardened over several years of vibrating on the vehicle subsequently shearing and loosing all the fluid. I've never actually come across this during my extensive life in and around the motor trade and I can't believe the British governing bodies would certify a product for use in this application if any real danger existed. So, as long as you buy copper pipe in a pack labeled as "brake pipe", I think it's fine. I tend to use it for short runs where a lot of twists and turns are needed and will say again that I've never seen a problem, even on some vehicles I've owned personally for 20 years or more.

For all other situations - long front to rear pipes for instance where copper pipes are likely to sag unless additional support is provided - I prefer Cupro Nickel. It's a bit harder so more difficult to flare and bend but holds it's shape nearly as well as steel so usually no additional supports are needed. You are likely to find that most "DIY" grade flaring tools will cope with it too. If I were to choose just one material it would be Cupro Nickel (often called "Kunifer" over here).

Steel pipe is actually quite rare to find readily available in store. It has quite a few down sides for the home mechanic, especially in regard to forming shapes and flaring. So, if you do manage to buy it you're then going to need a professional grade tool to flare it. Many of the steel products intended for use on braking systems are plastic coated to prevent/delay corrosion. A great idea but the trouble is you've got to scrape the coating off the ends so the forming tool can grip the pipe for flaring. Then the pipe rusts rapidly where the coating was disturbed making putting any sort of coating on it pointless in the first place! A pipe with no corrosion over it's entire length but heavy corrosion around the tube nuts is useless. I just don't buy steel tubing at all.

If you're going to buy a flaring tool look for one that can do steel tubing though. It'll last just about for ever on stuff like copper and Kunifer and it gives you the option of slicing into an existing steel pipe on the vehicle where most of that original pipe is in good order and flaring an end on it so you can fit a patch length to replace the little bit that was rusted. Also, on our vehicles over this side of the pond, most now have DIN form flares. Older vehicles had SAE. I wouldn't be surprised if SAE is still popular over there with you? If you were living over here I'd be recommending something like this: https://www.frost.co.uk/brake-pipe-flaring-tool-set/ which has the considerable advantage that, not only will it "do" steel but can also be easily used on pipes still fitted to the vehicle.

Last word, If you're not going to get enough use out of buying a set of flaring tools for yourself many garages and factors etc over here will make pipes up for you if you can take them the old pipe. There's not a lot of labour involved - the difficult bit is shaping and fitting to the vehicle - so it can make sense to do it this way. On the other hand, if you've a lot of mates who "fiddle" with cars, you can make pipes up for them for a small premium and soon recover the cost of the tools - and make yourself popular into the bargain?

So, go on, buy yourself a good quality flaring tool - you know you want to! I get great pleasure out of making and fitting brake pipes - not quite so much trying to undo really rusted old ones! If you get good at it, lying under the car admiring the nice straight sections with neat bends and all nice and shiny new? Very satisfying indeed!

PS. As our Canadian friend has said above, I think those lines shown in the advert are plastic coated steel lines. If so you are unlikely to be able to bend them without a forming tool to bend them around. Like this sort of thing: https://www.frost.co.uk/brake-pipe-and-tube-bender/ If you try to bend them freehand or round something like a screwdriver handle - which is possible, with caution, with cupro nickel and especially copper - the pipe will likely kink and collapse and/or sustain damage to the plastic coating. I especially like this design as it doesn't have a forming part which "wipes" along the pipe so causes minimal disruption to the sidewall of the pipe: https://www.lasertools.co.uk/Product/6971/Brake-Pipe-Bending-Pliers Been meaning to buy one for years but never got round to it.
Now thats what I call a great reply 👍
 
I've had my doubts over the bad copper stories. They claim it's due to thermal cycling and expansion, but central heating pipes usually get wider ranged temerpature cycling on a daily basis and never fail due to being brittle. I know it's not under the same pressure, but the relative wall thickness of the brake line is far thicker, and the old heating pipes still seem relatively soft.
 
I've had my doubts over the bad copper stories. They claim it's due to thermal cycling and expansion, but central heating pipes usually get wider ranged temerpature cycling on a daily basis and never fail due to being brittle. I know it's not under the same pressure, but the relative wall thickness of the brake line is far thicker, and the old heating pipes still seem relatively soft.
I've never actually seen anything which attributes a cause to failure of copper brake pipes but I'd always assumed it was work hardening due to vibratory flexing/oscillations that was the chief culprit? Wouldn't have thought thermal cycling was a big factor? Maybe that's why they survive? As I work on/help mostly with older cars I doubt if I've seen one in a long time which didn't have at least a couple of copper pipes on it and I can't remember ever having come across one which had failed.
 
As far as flaring tool go.. I realize that most dont want the cost of a simple repair to spiral out of control. But sometimes its not hard to convince/justify lol another tool.

After spending many years playing around with one of those cheap manual flare tools. Which was always a crapshoot 50% chance you would get a usable flare out of it.

Last year i invested in something to save me from grey hairs.

View attachment 403870

It wasn't overly expensive imo (150$ cad? iirc), but does all the standard flares (metric/imp) (single/double), as well as all the specialty flares for efi lines and the such.
There are many different re-brands of this same tool, but its just a decent quality shenzen import for most of our regions.

Might be worth a look at if you have a aging fleet of cars, and live in a corrosive environment. Ive done many flares with it in the past year, and it has worked as expected.
I was just looking back through this thread and took a closer look at your purchase. That's rather a nifty looking bit of kit. I'm presuming the "T" handle on the side locks the split die into the tool as it also clamps the pipe into the die? Then the black handle is screwed down onto the forming die and the lever is worked to force the forming die to form the swage? Only question that enters my mind with tools like this is do you really need to accommodate such a wide range of pipe sizes? can it cope with steel tube? If I owned one of these I think I'd be leaving it open on my workbench for a few weeks so I could drool over it every time I went into the workshop!
 
Answering my own question...After doing some research, I've learned that my brake line fittings are M10x1.25mm fittings. I'm assuming this is standard for 500s because that's the size on my old lines and on all new master and wheel cylinders that I ordered from Ricambio. So far, I've been able to re-use nuts from my old lines, but Midwest-Bayless sells them in the US: https://www.midwest-bayless.com/Fia...25-coarse-thread-fiat-lancia-1966-on-new.aspx
 
Most european cars I've done are M10x1.0, fiat are odd though
Absolutely. I learned, many years ago, never to take anything as a "given" where vehicles are concerned. Always check new parts against that coming off the vehicle - and, never ever assume, just because it's new, that it's going to be "good"! That applies especially to electronics! Wouldn't be the first time I've fitted a replacement sensor or other electronic/electrical part and then discounted it from further fault finding when the "fault" wasn't resolved only to find, after wasting hours sometimes, that the nice shiny new part was out of spec!
 
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