Technical Grande Punto boot/footwell/seat water leak and mould.

[Punto669]

Hello,

I have a 2006 Grande Punto 1.4 3-door hatchback - no sunroof.

I have a water leak in the boot on the right hand side under the carpet - looks like the water is coming down the inside of the wheel housing then soaking up into the boot carpet and going into the spare wheel well. After heavy/long rain I have water sloshing about the spare wheel well.

Recently I had a big bool of water in the driver side rear passenger footwell. The water formed a pool above the carpet. For the last 12 months I have been leaving newspaper there to soak up the water. After periods of rain the newspaper is soaked and I swap it out each time I am at the car until it remains dry.

I also have a moldy stained patch in the middle of the rear passenger seat - no not any of my passengers as I haven't had any in 2 years.
It started off as a whiteish stain which was moist during a rainy period. So I placed a newspaper on it which was getting moist during rainy periods.

My headliner, front seats, some front & side trim has gone moldy over winter (Dec-Feb) with patches of wispy white mold over them.
I removed the headliner and the other side looks brand new with no signs of water ingress anywhere on the roof underside or around where all the pillars are.

I initially suspected the aerial as the base rubber on the outside has hardened and perished - so I removed and sealed it up all the way round with a thick coating of silicone.
With the headliner off there is absolutely no sign of water ingress at the aerial retaining bolt or area around it or any of the cables. It all looks factory.

I do not use the rear washer at all as I know the tube in the tailgate flexible rubber hardened and perished. I fixed 2 broken wires in there and plugged the washer tube with a short screw soon after getting the car.

The door seals on both sides look good as well as the tailgate seal. They are all snugly fitted all the way around door/tailgate.

So, please can you give me some ideas?
Where have you found your Punto's leaking?

I'll be removing the rear side trim shortly to replace the rear speakers.

Any help much appreciated.

Thanks.

 

[bugsymike]

Hello,

I have a 2006 Grande Punto 1.4 3-door hatchback - no sunroof.

I have a water leak in the boot on the right hand side under the carpet - looks like the water is coming down the inside of the wheel housing then soaking up into the boot carpet and going into the spare wheel well. After heavy/long rain I have water sloshing about the spare wheel well.

Recently I had a big bool of water in the driver side rear passenger footwell. The water formed a pool above the carpet. For the last 12 months I have been leaving newspaper there to soak up the water. After periods of rain the newspaper is soaked and I swap it out each time I am at the car until it remains dry.

I also have a moldy stained patch in the middle of the rear passenger seat - no not any of my passengers as I haven't had any in 2 years.
It started off as a whiteish stain which was moist during a rainy period. So I placed a newspaper on it which was getting moist during rainy periods.

My headliner, front seats, some front & side trim has gone moldy over winter (Dec-Feb) with patches of wispy white mold over them.
I removed the headliner and the other side looks brand new with no signs of water ingress anywhere on the roof underside or around where all the pillars are.

I initially suspected the aerial as the base rubber on the outside has hardened and perished - so I removed and sealed it up all the way round with a thick coating of silicone.
With the headliner off there is absolutely no sign of water ingress at the aerial retaining bolt or area around it or any of the cables. It all looks factory.

I do not use the rear washer at all as I know the tube in the tailgate flexible rubber hardened and perished. I fixed 2 broken wires in there and plugged the washer tube with a short screw soon after getting the car.

The door seals on both sides look good as well as the tailgate seal. They are all snugly fitted all the way around door/tailgate.

So, please can you give me some ideas?
Where have you found your Punto's leaking?

I'll be removing the rear side trim shortly to replace the rear speakers.

Any help much appreciated.

Thanks.

One of my daughters had a three door Grande Punto that used to leak behind drivers seat, I adjusted the drivers door which helped but didn't cure it totally.
You may find the only way is to remove the rear seats, carpets and side panels etc. to try and locate the fault.
Hers would leak when parked and rain was coming from a certain direction , but I couldn't duplicate using high pressure hose.
Is there any signs of a previous accident repair as that can cause it.
On a different note, years ago we had a sales customer who complained about water on her passenger front floor for sometime, one day when car was on the ramp I opened that door, called the lady over , telling her I had found the cause of her "leak", she had three show dogs and they were using the floor as their toilet!!!

 

[Punto669]

One of my daughters had a three door Grande Punto that used to leak behind drivers seat, I adjusted the drivers door which helped but didn't cure it totally.
You may find the only way is to remove the rear seats, carpets and side panels etc. to try and locate the fault.
Hers would leak when parked and rain was coming from a certain direction , but I couldn't duplicate using high pressure hose.
Is there any signs of a previous accident repair as that can cause it.
On a different note, years ago we had a sales customer who complained about water on her passenger front floor for sometime, one day when car was on the ramp I opened that door, called the lady over , telling her I had found the cause of her "leak", she had three show dogs and they were using the floor as their toilet!!!

Thanks for your reply.
It may have had an accident on the front as one of the inner wheel arch plastics is missing and some trim doesn't line up 100%.
But could this be related to a boot leak?

lol.... definitely not a show dog as no animal has been in it all the time I have owned.

 

[bugsymike]

Thanks for your reply.
It may have had an accident on the front as one of the inner wheel arch plastics is missing and some trim doesn't line up 100%.
But could this be related to a boot leak?

lol.... definitely not a show dog as no animal has been in it all the time I have owned.

I would start by removing some trim and carpet to try and discover more precisely, it does sound more centre to rear water ingress.
One Dealership I worked for in the past had 40 pages on "water ingression" in service bulletins on their model.

 

[Punto669]

I would start by removing some trim and carpet to try and discover more precisely, it does sound more centre to rear water ingress.
One Dealership I worked for in the past had 40 pages on "water ingression" in service bulletins on their model.

So I've taken the rear interior apart and can't find any obvious signs of water ingress. Areas covered by panels/carpet are dusty, have cobwebs and other dirt found in a 17 year old car.
So this is the boot area which I usually first spot is wet and the boot liner is wet underneath and if raining for a long time the spare wheel well turns into a pond;

IMG_20230422_170042.jpg

• Punto669
• Apr 23, 2023

Initially I thought it was the perished aerial base rubber but having removed the headliner the aerial base mount is pretty much factory looking with no sign of water/liquid on the roof liner;

IMG_20230415_200630.jpg

• Punto669
• Apr 23, 2023

Sides are as expected - look like when they come out of the factory with some ageing (one of the black pads is a bit curled up) and coating of dirt;


I looked under the carpet behind the driver (where the earlier puddle pic) and there is still old water under there with 25p ;

I am aiming to remove the front seats, center console and main carpet tomorrow.

I did find the metal plate the ODBC port is mounted to rusted, which probably indicates moisture/leak;


If it is leaking at the front, that might explain the water in the footwell behind the driver - but water in the rear and getting into the spare wheel well?

You can view other dismantling pictures HERE

 

[bugsymike]

Whow! You have certainly been busy, lovely load of photos.
The only one I could see slightly suspicious was in your first photo, below the square red plug there looks like a slight stain mark from the rear boot closure panel down and onto the O/S ? boot floor above the wheel well.
May not be relevant but I recall Ford Escorts used to have problems with the rubber gasket behind the rear lamp clusters allowing water in.
Possibly try laying tissue paper around and or some compound that changes colour with water, prior to rain or hose pipe use (we are in a hose pipe ban area now) to see if anything shows up.
In the late 1960s I remember as an apprentice being shut in the boot of cars with a torch to locate water leaks/ingress, if I was lucky they would let me out.

 

[varesecrazy]

Hi

The grandes leak enough that there are a fair few threads on here.. and a reasonable amount of answers


Prime suspects:
Poorly refitted light clusters.. my 58 plate
Aged / cracked body panel putty..my 2007

Leaky back window.. or rear washer hose


Roof aerial mounts..possible.. but its not French

My 2012 is bone dry..thankfully


I often had one of the 'parcel shelf brackets damp on one 199 body punto

Another the carpet section on the side lip of the wheel well ( just on one side) was damp..and the boot swimming

Obviously shelf limits path options
Carpet says which side

But if its mysteriously filling the well you have to look harder


Maybe.. put kitchen towel down the sides.. taping it on panels if necessary

The difference once its got wet..even if now dry again is usually pretty evident


Charlie - near the M4

 

[garethrobinson]

I’ve spent the past few months trying to find a similar leak. In the end I smothered the aging body panel putty with silicone which appears to have done the trick. Worth taking a look if you haven’t already.

 

[Punto669]

Whow! You have certainly been busy, lovely load of photos.
The only one I could see slightly suspicious was in your first photo, below the square red plug there looks like a slight stain mark from the rear boot closure panel down and onto the O/S ? boot floor above the wheel well.
May not be relevant but I recall Ford Escorts used to have problems with the rubber gasket behind the rear lamp clusters allowing water in.
Possibly try laying tissue paper around and or some compound that changes colour with water, prior to rain or hose pipe use (we are in a hose pipe ban area now) to see if anything shows up.
In the late 1960s I remember as an apprentice being shut in the boot of cars with a torch to locate water leaks/ingress, if I was lucky they would let me out.

All those lost apprentice's probably why they must now have the emergency release on the inside of the boot lock
Good spot! You have passed the test. I think I just dismissed it as it was dirt/dust like everywhere else and I was expecting it to be a 'clean' path/run where the water was flowing. I guess this would be the case for a steady flow but if only a droplet at a time or trickle then that wouldn't move anything but just make it moist.
So this suspicious black line is actually a big clue to the current suspected source - you'll see a little further on.
The overnight weather has helped us today
This morning I was greeted by this;


On closer inspection of the dark line and poking it, (it was moist and the black was dirt like soil) the source seems to be this join/seam;


Looking at the tailgate lip it is clear from any similar marks - just has a uniform, coating of little black dots which must be overspray from painting (car is black).

Looking into the void between wheel arch and rear corner, there is a little puddle of water;


And above there is the location of the rear light cluster which is looking like this today;

You can see around the square hole the 'cleanish' area where decent contact was being made but at the top there is no satisfactory 'clean' line like there should be. Looking into the hole doesn't reveal much but the seatbelt unit mount - so water must be dripping/flowing down into the corner bit and some the other way to that join and both then rejoin and flow down into passenger footwell as per picture above. I guess it also depends if car is parked at an angle;


So this looks like the source of the leak as there is black dirt/soil type material which feels/looks the same as what has been trickling out of that join creating the black line.
This makes me so mad as it is essentially on the exterior of the car in an area (channel) where you expect a lot of water will be flowing in long/heavy rainfall.
Why doesn't this have some sort of waterproof rubber connector or cable pass through? Unless pressured for cost-savings which designer who calls themselves a professional would come up with something like this and consider it satisfactory.

I ran out of time getting the carpet out as once I had the centre console out I found out it is 'locked in' by support struts and parts of the air blower channels. I didn't have scissors/knife with me to cut it for easy removal so have left it.
I did lift the drivers side up and it's also wet underneath and unpleasant smelling - the noise dampening material is REALLY thick and will take ages to dry out.

Pics from today are HERE

Thanks for all your help. More next weekend when I will hopefully have the carpet out and can see full extent of the horror underneath and start drying out....

Hi

The grandes leak enough that there are a fair few threads on here.. and a reasonable amount of answers


Prime suspects:
Poorly refitted light clusters.. my 58 plate
Aged / cracked body panel putty..my 2007

Leaky back window.. or rear washer hose


Roof aerial mounts..possible.. but its not French

My 2012 is bone dry..thankfully


I often had one of the 'parcel shelf brackets damp on one 199 body punto

Another the carpet section on the side lip of the wheel well ( just on one side) was damp..and the boot swimming

Obviously shelf limits path options
Carpet says which side

But if its mysteriously filling the well you have to look harder


Maybe.. put kitchen towel down the sides.. taping it on panels if necessary

The difference once its got wet..even if now dry again is usually pretty evident


Charlie - near the M4

Hi Charlie,
Thanks for your reply and I'm happy to hear you have a bone dry Grande
I do get water in the tailgate itself which discover when I open it half-way and it starts dripping out the corner bump rubber. I've always been miffed why it doesn't drain out the drain holes along the bottom edge.
The rear washer hose splint in the tailgate rubber boot and I have not used it since finding out. When I got the car the rear washer worked but not as well as I thought it should be then it stopped. Shortly after that the left brake light played up and thats when I found the light cluster connector was stained screenwash blue.

Roof aerial mounts I have checked and underneath the roof it looks almost factory in excellent condition with no sign of liquid flow on the top of the headliner. Which surprised me as my aerial base rubber grommet had perished and I had it as a prime suspect for my water leak. It is currently well coated in translucent silicone until I get a new grommet or aerial. (BTW my MK1 Clio never had any water leaks!)

"Carpet says which side" - possibly if you dry it out thoroughly then check it each time it rains. The noise dampening material soaks up water like a sponge but resists letting it go and you have to dry it out in the sun or by a radiator.

Sticking kitchen towel is a good suggestion but because it soaks up water so easily over its area before releasing it, I think you'd have to do something clever with it. Like little strips/squares in different places and move them around.
What would be good is those stickers you get inside electronics that turn red if exposed to water.

Anyway, I think we have a lead to follow now....

 

[bugsymike]

Fingers crossed we have found the answer, having your good clear pictures helps and I only use my PC screen, so when the photo is expanded and using my "specsavers" that first pic looked suspicious.
I am from the dark ages and don't use a mobile phone, so also had the benefit of missing out on the National 3pm emergency "call out" which probably also means when the Nuclear Armageddon occurs I will know nothing about it.

 

[Punto669]

I’ve spent the past few months trying to find a similar leak. In the end I smothered the aging body panel putty with silicone which appears to have done the trick. Worth taking a look if you haven’t already.

Thanks for your reply.
Which body panel was it?

 

[ycming]

How do you plan on fixing it now you found the leak?

Would you say mainly coming in from the rear light cluster?

Your pictures are very good!

Thanks
Ming

 

[Punto669]

How do you plan on fixing it now you found the leak?

Would you say mainly coming in from the rear light cluster?

Your pictures are very good!

Thanks
Ming

At the moment until I can do the hose test, it's looking like the light cluster body panel cut-out (and poor excuse for a gasket) is at fault.
Long term I have got some 4 way waterproof connectors which I'm planning to solder one end directly to the light cluster circuit tracks and the other into the vehicle wiring loom. Then I am going to seal the square hole for the light cluster wiring with a solid rubber gasket having just the new connector wiring passing through.

I'm also planning to apply some temporary silicone channels to divert any water flow away from the weak points - see below what I plan to do.

 

[Punto669]

Fingers crossed we have found the answer, having your good clear pictures helps and I only use my PC screen, so when the photo is expanded and using my "specsavers" that first pic looked suspicious.
I am from the dark ages and don't use a mobile phone, so also had the benefit of missing out on the National 3pm emergency "call out" which probably also means when the Nuclear Armageddon occurs I will know nothing about it.

No mobile phone??? How do you call recovery when you Fiat breaks down?
lol,... I think when the nuclear armageddon occurs, having 3 minutes warning to hide behind the sofa won't be sufficient....

Anyway, weekend 3 of the Grande Punto stripdown is here.....

First pic is one I forgot last time of the top of the boot tail gate - the area at the top of the suspicious 'black line/trail' is clean (apart from paint splatter) so not coming in through tailgate/tailgate seal;


After removing seats, cutting the front central parts of the carpet 'trapped-in' by metal struts & blower components and some more tugging in various directions - it finally gives in and I am able to raise up the drivers side to reveal this sight;

Lifting it all the way to reveal the horror which hides beneath;

I had to leave it at an angle for 20 minutes for the draining water to turn to a trickle and trickle to turn into droplets which then turned back into a trickle each time I squeezed;

I heaved the carpet out which was still much heavier on the drivers side;

Then back to inspect the drivers side lake;


I guess these little holes allowed the rear leak all the was into the drivers footwell;


The passenger side looks how I wish the drivers side did;


The carpet has been in front of a radiator for about 48 hours and now seems pretty dry but the drivers side now feels more rigid than the passenger side.
The 'foam' covering over the central tunnel also seems to have largely dried out with a combination of newspaper underneath and squeezing.

Half the drivers footwell soundproofing is still firmly held-in-place so I'm going to avoid taking it out and attempt to dry it out in situ using a combination of newspaper, cloth, kitchen roll, applying pressure to get the water out (by foot and I might try a rolling pin) and something else which I'm open to suggestions?


This weekends gory pics HERE

So for my temporary 'fix' I thinking of applying some silicone beads to divert water flow away from the suspected point of ingress and also away from the 'trickle path' to the drivers side rear footwell.
At the drivers side light cluster wiring loom 'body hole' I will apply silicone in the following shape to divert any water down the sides of the loom opening;

Along the 'trickle path' I will apply similar silicone to divert any water into the spare wheel well to prevent it making its was into the drivers side rear footwell again;


While this may mean I still have a wet boot carpet and a spare wheel 'well' (with water in ) - that's far easier to rectify than removing & drying the main carpet Fingers crossed for awarm & dry 2023!

So it just remains to ask for your opinion whether to DRILL or NOT-TO-DRILL?
Should I customise my GP with some drain holes in the front footwells where lots of water has collected and in the spare wheel well to well drain any future water that is looking for a free ride?
The only disadvantages I can think of are they can let moisture in or water if long rainy spells and driving through puddles regularly or don't even think about attempting any fords...!!!

 

[bugsymike]

After running cars and motorbikes etc. since 1970 and being in the motortrade since 1969 I have been "lucky?" not to have to suffer the embarrassment of waiting for road side assistance. Having said that I had an old MGB Roadster that died at the side of the road and whilst my friend and I (both mechanics) were pondering it, another MG owner stopped and promptly suggested the common fault of electric fuel pump, then giving a thump to the boot floor the pump staggered back into life, so grateful embarrassment then.Followed by quickly fitting new contact points to the Smiths petrol pump.
Re the phone I had a landline and answerphone for my business when I went self employed in 1982 and found the ability to get away from work without a mobile phone etc. much appreciated, I think they rule peoples lives and probably account for more working hours lost than the old days "fag break", and regarding my customers, who were all regulars, my argument was that if the car was regularly maintained it probably would not break down, this being the days before "reliable" electronics etc.
I had a friend who used his home phone number as a customer back up, who got a phone call from a taxi driver who had just finished his shift around 2am and wanted to book a service!
Re additional drying out, if safe to do it and when warm sunny weather leave all the door open and boot/tailgate should help, also a cheap electric dehumidifier for around £30 if you can get mains power to where the car is, I have found makes a difference. Mind you don't chop the wires closing the door though

 

[Punto669]

After running cars and motorbikes etc. since 1970 and being in the motortrade since 1969 I have been "lucky?" not to have to suffer the embarrassment of waiting for road side assistance. Having said that I had an old MGB Roadster that died at the side of the road and whilst my friend and I (both mechanics) were pondering it, another MG owner stopped and promptly suggested the common fault of electric fuel pump, then giving a thump to the boot floor the pump staggered back into life, so grateful embarrassment then.Followed by quickly fitting new contact points to the Smiths petrol pump.

Those were the days! If I ever finish my Spit, those days are ahead of me

I had a friend who used his home phone number as a customer back up, who got a phone call from a taxi driver who had just finished his shift around 2am and wanted to book a service!

lol I hope a 2am booking call was charged at quadruple time!

Re additional drying out, if safe to do it and when warm sunny weather leave all the door open and boot/tailgate should help, also a cheap electric dehumidifier for around £30 if you can get mains power to where the car is, I have found makes a difference. Mind you don't chop the wires closing the door though

Unfortunately I can't get a mains power source and Saturdays weather wasn't the glorious sunshine I was hoping for. Multiple newspapers did soak up a lot a water over the week and at the weekend it was still 'damp-to-the-touch' (and squeeze) in places. So I decided to resort to a primitive approach;

The trusty 'Flame Master', some toolkit edition Nissan pliers, a bottle of water on standby and sitting there for about an hour with the door open.
With just a single singe incident it did remain nice and warm under there and doing the squeeze test on Monday showed very favorable results.
I think we are at a satisfactory point with this piece and just a piece on the middle tunnel with synthetic back is leaving a patch of condensation on the metal behind it. I have treated it to some newspaper and will check/change it over the week.
Fingers crossed for sunny weather this weekend and let the reassembly begin.

So the rainy weekend has added to the case against the crappy light cluster wiring loom access non-seal. I put a couple of cloths down along the leak 'path' so no water gets far inside again an they did the trick. Were wet but no water made it near the driver rear footwell.
There was water in the box sections behind the rear wheel arch which supports your 'black line' water ingress - water comes off the roof into the rear tailgate channel and flows down onto the crappy non-seal and drips/trickles down the inner of the box section onto the flat ledge which may be well welded/joined. When enough water has pooled/accumulated it finds the opening under the red screw holder to continue its travels in the interior;



Still so disappointed and annoyed at the design/quality of the rear light cluster wiring loom through hole.

BTW: Anyone know the ID & OD of the rear washer feed hose?
Also my front (pump to jet) hose is shorter than it should be as it is at full stretch when the bonnet is open - I haven't looked at it in detail yet, but will I regret attempting to replace it with a new, longer bit of hose?

 

[bugsymike]

Those were the days! If I ever finish my Spit, those days are ahead of me


lol I hope a 2am booking call was charged at quadruple time!


Unfortunately I can't get a mains power source and Saturdays weather wasn't the glorious sunshine I was hoping for. Multiple newspapers did soak up a lot a water over the week and at the weekend it was still 'damp-to-the-touch' (and squeeze) in places. So I decided to resort to a primitive approach;
View attachment 422538
The trusty 'Flame Master', some toolkit edition Nissan pliers, a bottle of water on standby and sitting there for about an hour with the door open.
With just a single singe incident it did remain nice and warm under there and doing the squeeze test on Monday showed very favorable results.
I think we are at a satisfactory point with this piece and just a piece on the middle tunnel with synthetic back is leaving a patch of condensation on the metal behind it. I have treated it to some newspaper and will check/change it over the week.
Fingers crossed for sunny weather this weekend and let the reassembly begin.

So the rainy weekend has added to the case against the crappy light cluster wiring loom access non-seal. I put a couple of cloths down along the leak 'path' so no water gets far inside again an they did the trick. Were wet but no water made it near the driver rear footwell.
There was water in the box sections behind the rear wheel arch which supports your 'black line' water ingress - water comes off the roof into the rear tailgate channel and flows down onto the crappy non-seal and drips/trickles down the inner of the box section onto the flat ledge which may be well welded/joined. When enough water has pooled/accumulated it finds the opening under the red screw holder to continue its travels in the interior;
View attachment 422539


Still so disappointed and annoyed at the design/quality of the rear light cluster wiring loom through hole.

BTW: Anyone know the ID & OD of the rear washer feed hose?
Also my front (pump to jet) hose is shorter than it should be as it is at full stretch when the bonnet is open - I haven't looked at it in detail yet, but will I regret attempting to replace it with a new, longer bit of hose?

I would guess around 4 mm id, but probably the same as front ones so maybe check there.
We used to fit joiners in the washer hose where damaged, "available in all good accessory shops as they say".
Re drying a non electric dehumidifier may do the job of collecting moisture, they use " traditional dehumidifiers use calcium chloride to collect moisture from the air. This unique chemical compound is known to dry out high levels of humidity."
Available on eBay etc. Though long use may cause rust as it is a form of salt I think.
I don't know about the "flame master" but people used to find paraffin stoves and the portable gas heaters actually increased the moisture. Many years ago as a paper boy in the 1960s I recall the smell of paraffin when pushing the newspaper through their letter boxes and the condensation on all their windows on the estates.
Hopefully the weather will improve and even if not sunny then a good brisk wind with all the windows or doors open should help.