Technical Giving the dog a bone?

[Myusername]

My car is prone to significant clutch judder the first 2 or 3 times the clutch is released from cold.

I'm aware of the probability of oil leakage on to the clutch, but there are no signs of slippage.

Due to to some shunt that shows when coming off the throttle at other times, I am wondering if the infamous "dog bone" lower stabilization bar is worn, and if replacement would reduce cold clutch judder?

If so, am I correct that the engine does not need to be supported to change it? Also, what is the part actually called?

Many thanks as always to the collective.

 

[redandwhite]

A worn dog bone normally shows itself with a lurch when coming off the accelerator rather than clutch judder. How are your other mounts ?

 

[mjc506]

Engine doesn't need supporting as such although a jack under the rear of the gearbox may be helpful to get everything bolted back up again.

 

[koalar]

engine mount is almost certainly not the "main" fault .

I have never known one fix itself as the engine warms up

Sounds more engine to me, from the symptoms, more diagnosing needed
From a cold start if you walk to the exhaust at the back how does it sound

worth checking the inspection hole in the bellhousing and the bottom of the bellhousing for oil.

spark plugs okay

bubbling sounds

hesitation on acceleration

MAP sensor clean

 

[Myusername]

The engine runs fine from cold, it's definitely clutch related, it will still judder slightly at certain times when warmed up, I'm thinking the friction plate is worn.

 

[koalar]

The engine runs fine from cold, it's definitely clutch related, it will still judder slightly at certain times when warmed up, I'm thinking the friction plate is worn.

if you drop the clutch quicker is it worse or better

 

[koalar]

open the bonnet drive a few feet forward and jam on the brakes while someone watches the engine

stay safe you dont have to go mad. 5MPH is enough. Obviously not on a road. somewhere with plenty off room. I do mine on my drive.

the engine weighs a lot. Stopping in a few inches you will easily see the engine tip forward.

it normally compresses the rubber Bush a bit, so there will be a small bit of movement. But when worn is will be fair bit of movement.

Judder is normally not the clutch. Either the shaft from the gearbox is wobbling around (very common, test here https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/clutch-or-gearbox.486803/post-4592037 ) or an engine running fault.

We do see the gearbox mount collapse but this should only be reversing up a slope. But worth testing

 

[timmycm850]

let's ask a few key questions.

What car how old/mileage and what sort if history does it have.

Tim

 

[koalar]

Due to to some shunt that shows when coming off the throttle

missed this

sounds more like a intermittent low rev misfire to me

fairly common. Just had to repair mine.

The FIRE engine will run reasonably smooth on two cylinders at low revs

 

[Myusername]

let's ask a few key questions.

What car how old/mileage and what sort if history does it have.

Tim

It's an 06 plate 1.2, 82000 miles when I got it, one careful owner and 12 careless ones. Came with 12 months MOT and significant suspension clonks, whining wheel bearings and wanders all over the dual carriageway. Oh, a a "Princess on board" from a yummy mummy school run hack previous life.

It seems to me that an MOT isn't what it used to be...

The engine seems fine apart from a couple of seconds of valve train clatter when started from cold, I've serviced it along with new coil packs. It doesn't like E10 petrol so I run it on super stuff. It's nippy and willing.

The gearbox is a bit notchy at times and can be obstructive for reverse, but doesn't seem noisy at idle. All the indicators are there of a tired clutch.

 

[koalar]

It's an 06 plate 1.2, 82000 miles when I got it, one careful owner and 12 careless ones. Came with 12 months MOT and significant suspension clonks, whining wheel bearings and wanders all over the dual carriageway. Oh, a a "Princess on board" from a yummy mummy school run hack previous life.

It seems to me that an MOT isn't what it used to be...

The engine seems fine apart from a couple of seconds of valve train clatter when started from cold, I've serviced it along with new coil packs. It doesn't like E10 petrol so I run it on super stuff. It's nippy and willing.

The gearbox is a bit notchy at times and can be obstructive for reverse, but doesn't seem noisy at idle. All the indicators are there of a tired clutch.

threes a lot of rubbish on the internet. Which is then copied and pasted in Good faith.

worn clutch and contaminated clutch rarely cause these symptoms. Contamination is often a secondary effect anyhow

both an engine or gearbox problem will cause these symptoms

engine mounts rarely cause judder except in reverse. Usually accompanied with a load knocking nose. Easy to check. We need some feedback. Does the engine move when braking.

lurching forward when you take your foot of the accelerator is because the ecu has detected a problem and the flyby wire throttle has opened slightly to stop the engine cutting out. I'd be addressing this before going any further. You might get a bonus of fixing the judder as well. Did you fit the new coil packs or the previous owner. Did it fix the problem. Only ever had one fail in a fiat in hundred of thousands of miles.

if you want to change your clutch dont let me put you off. Its entirely up to you. Maybe it will fix your problem. Without some feedback from post 4 we have very little to go on

diagnose and inspect as much as possible, Its a 15 year Old car. You don't want to spend out more than you have to. You can't diagnose a fault just by asking. you will end up with a long list of every possibility. You may get lucky, or it might get expensive

 

[Myusername]

threes a lot of rubbish on the internet. Which is then copied and pasted in Good faith.

worn clutch and contaminated clutch rarely cause these symptoms. Contamination is often a secondary effect anyhow

both an engine or gearbox problem will cause these symptoms

engine mounts rarely cause judder except in reverse. Usually accompanied with a load knocking nose. Easy to check. We need some feedback. Does the engine move when braking.

lurching forward when you take your foot of the accelerator is because the ecu has detected a problem and the flyby wire throttle has opened slightly to stop the engine cutting out. I'd be addressing this before going any further. You might get a bonus of fixing the judder as well. Did you fit the new coil packs or the previous owner. Did it fix the problem. Only ever had one fail in a fiat in hundred of thousands of miles.

if you want to change your clutch dont let me put you off. Its entirely up to you. Maybe it will fix your problem. Without some feedback from post 4 we have very little to go on

diagnose and inspect as much as possible, Its a 15 year Old car. You don't want to spend out more than you have to. You can't diagnose a fault just by asking. you will end up with a long list of every possibility. You may get lucky, or it might get expensive

Thanks for all the knowledgeable replies.

No I don't want to change the clutch!

I changed the coil packs when I serviced it because they were so cheap, and the old ones were very rusty. I also have a new set of leads which I haven't got round to fitting yet (there doesn't seem much need when the engine is running fine.)

I'll have a good look this afternoon and poke around.

 

[Myusername]

 

[Myusername]

Hmm, it seems to me there is an awful lot of movement on this drivers side engine mount...

 

[DaveMcT]

I can add something to this. Take it for what you will.

My 100HP was always sharp on the clutch. After a while it became hard to control especially when cold. It would judder and either stall or wheel spin on take-off. Clutch hydraulics were changed giving some improvement but not much. The clutch was also feeling heavy and near the top of pedal movement. It also had an almost delayed action to lifting the pedal.

I bit the bullet and had a new clutch fitted. The old friction plate did not look too bad, but the spring fingers had significant wear divots.The action was great no delays and no kangarooing. I wondered if the divots were causing the strange pedal action.
Fast forward 30,000 miles. I noticed some judder and though here we go again then one day at speed on A303, the clutch just slipped. Engine hit the rev limiter. I got home but any significant accelerator would slip the clutch. The following day I had to abuse it to slip the clutch but it would happen if I really tried.

I replaced the clutch myself. Clutch housing smelled of gear oil but there was no significant mess. It was not running with oil. Apart form the slippage I would probably have not noticed. I replaced the gearbox input seal. Bearing wasn't touched as its a MUCH bigger roller affair than I'd expected to find/ Maybe because there is no support bearing in the crankshaft. Who knows. The old seal was hard as nails so it needed to go.

The clutch has been fine ever since. Ask me again in another 20K miles.

 

[koalar]

Hmm, it seems to me there is an awful lot of movement on this drivers side engine mount...

Thanks for the photo I have to look on mine, cars not here at the moment

its more than when they are new for sure, Photo 2, but I have never look what they are like at 80K miles.

normally this mount fails when the metal insert breaks away from rubber which seems okay in photo one.

Not sure the pathway between judder on the First First few stop, starts but then mostly okay and an engine mount. Possible, but unlikely. I be looking at fixing the surging on throttle lift off First.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Our 2014 car did this when new. I complained and they did some adjustment. It does not do it anymore. I am sorry I do not know what they actually did. All I know is it was only in the garage a short time and hour or less I think.

 

[koalar]

Our 2014 car did this when new. I complained and they did some adjustment. It does not do it anymore. I am sorry I do not know what they actually did. All I know is it was only in the garage a short time and hour or less I think.

There will be lots of causes I presume. Being flyby wire the computer can open the throttle and adjust on the fly

I just done mine 2010 1.2 eco. I doubt the OP would be the same. Be quite a coincidence. Which is why I haven't post what it was. But mine had judder on take-off also

You have to work methodically through as much as you can,

 

[koalar]

I looked at mine. Dark now

but I can't quite get my index finger through gets stuck at my knuckles So around 20 mm gap at the top

Yours looks to be in better condition mine as mine is staring to deteriorate and crack.

 

[koalar]

The engine seems fine apart from a couple of seconds of valve train clatter when started from cold, I've serviced it along with new coil packs. It doesn't like E10 petrol so I run it on super stuff. It's nippy and willing.

.

must be tell you something.

should run fine on E10,