Technical Gearbox question

[nitro_warrior]

What's weak about the Panda gearbox?

This may be a bit of a stupid question but it dawned on me I don't actually know. Sure i'll jump on the band wagon and say things like "remove the gearbox from that scrap car and hoarde it like scrooge" and "don't fit more than 75HP to a 4x4 gearbox it will explode."

But I've noticed that you don't really get that many posts with gearbox problems, certainly not ones related to them being weak persay. Sure you get rattly ones, generally caused by the gaiters splitting and them running with no oil. That doesn't mean they're weak though, just poorly maintained (of which i'm guilty) The only actual breakage I can recall is me shattering the diff gears, and I think I'm unique on that one!!

I don't want hearsay and first hand examples would be nice. So, if you don't mind me asking ...

What are the fabled weak points of a Panda gearbox?

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

Its the yellow metals in them that go if the wrong gearbox oil is used if I remember correctly from other posts. Not sure if it's all or only the 4x4s.

Jon

 

[nitro_warrior]

Its the yellow metals in them that go if the wrong gearbox oil is used if I remember correctly from other posts. Not sure if it's all or only the 4x4s.

Jon

That's a maintenance problem, I should have listed that along with leaking gaiters, but it's not a physical weakness as such.

What's the weak link, particularly if you hook up more power?

 

[Chas Uno]

I would've though it would be the mainshafts and bearings simply not designed to cope with power, and in particular, torque above a certain level. Not necessarily a weak link, more that they are being asked to perform beyond their design parameters.

I think the clutch cable design is probably the weakest link, much like the mk1 Unos!

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

Oh right. Sorry. Not sure.

 

[firstcar-Y10]

is the fable not largely the 4x4 gearbox? no experience with those but my gearbox has done great. Guessing at a quarter million miles now with no rebuild, and third is just starting to grouch going in and it grumbles a bit at idle but still going strong. And before you ask I have no idea what the oil is, some strangely exotic fully synth that somebody who knows somebody managed to get from a factory they used to work at that they used for some big industrial equipment or something.
seems to work anyway, as long as you're gentle from cold.

 

[james2609]

is the fable not largely the 4x4 gearbox? no experience with those but my gearbox has done great. Guessing at a quarter million miles now with no rebuild, and third is just starting to grouch going in and it grumbles a bit at idle but still going strong. And before you ask I have no idea what the oil is, some strangely exotic fully synth that somebody who knows somebody managed to get from a factory they used to work at that they used for some big industrial equipment or something.
seems to work anyway, as long as you're gentle from cold.

I use Syntrax in my gearbox and it's lovely and smooth. I would've said the driveshaft seals and earlier design gaitors were a weak point as well as clutch cable. I have heard about the metals inside the gearbox being damaged by using the incorrect oil, that's why I use Syntrax as it's meant to be compatible.

 

[xsparky]

I don't think they are particularly weak, I would suggest that when they're actually used offroad there is a much greater load placed on them in certain circumstances compared to on the road, which makes the 4x4 boxes more prone to a catastrophic failure, but the only recurring problem I've heard of is synchro's, and that's probably due to ham fistedness when the going gets tough, [probably just as applicable to 2wd gearboxes], it's just that the 4x4 boxes are harder to get hold of when you do have a problem. I've got a spare box, because mine was noisy when I bought the car due to a split CV boot leaving very little oil in the box, but its not got any worse in the last year and I'd be reasonably happy to take it on a long trip.
Mike

 

[nitro_warrior]

This is all very interesting, I think this gearbox thing is all a bit over hyped.

I would agree syncros are another weak(ish) point but again suspect that's more of a maintanence thing again.

So I'm the only one who so far has terminaly broken a gearbox through excess power (/driving technique!) Basically a fast spinning free wheel suddenly getting traction and shock loading the diff *SNAP*. A recipe for disaster at the best of times, i've seen land rovers break doing the same thing. And to be fair driving sensibly offroad is about being gentle, for that very reason, you'll break stuff being agressive.

I'm starting to think a well maintained Panda gearbox can probably take more than we give it credit for...
Anyone else want to admit to a catastrophic gearbox failure?!

 

[Bougainvillea Rosso]

When I got my 4x4 in '05 I rapidly discovered that there was no oil in the greabox as when I went to top up it poured out both gaiters. I was worried that the gear box's days were numbered and of course it was pretty noisy. Unsurprisingly, it's still a bit noisy, but - fingers crossed - it soldiers on and I don't have problems selescting gear apart from the usual care needed going down into third. Amazing really. Who knows how long it was running without oil?

 

[Luke P]

This is all very interesting, I think this gearbox thing is all a bit over hyped.

I would agree syncros are another weak(ish) point but again suspect that's more of a maintanence thing again.

So I'm the only one who so far has terminaly broken a gearbox through excess power (/driving technique!) Basically a fast spinning free wheel suddenly getting traction and shock loading the diff *SNAP*. A recipe for disaster at the best of times, i've seen land rovers break doing the same thing. And to be fair driving sensibly offroad is about being gentle, for that very reason, you'll break stuff being agressive.

I'm starting to think a well maintained Panda gearbox can probably take more than we give it credit for...
Anyone else want to admit to a catastrophic gearbox failure?!

I thought you shattered a diff gear not the gearbox .

Luke.

 

[Uno driver]

When I got my 4x4 in '05 I rapidly discovered that there was no oil in the greabox as when I went to top up it poured out both gaiters. I was worried that the gear box's days were numbered and of course it was pretty noisy. Unsurprisingly, it's still a bit noisy, but - fingers crossed - it soldiers on and I don't have problems selescting gear apart from the usual care needed going down into third. Amazing really. Who knows how long it was running without oil?

I'm having exactly the same problem. I made 5km with completly dry gearbox. No idea how long it was driven dry by previous owner. It still works great selecting gears, but it's noisy, especially in neutral.

 

[pandamonius_maximus]

This sounds promising for when I switch over to the abarth engine :devil: I think, as has been mentioned, the problem is miss use. 75hp through a 4x4 box has more potential to wreck it as it generates more power and torque. Only thing is, we dont know the long term effects of running at increased power yet as most people have only just bought there 1.2+ fire's. Time will tell whether the extra grunt will lead to faster wear. I'll be putting the mk1 4x4 box through its test very soon now

Good point to bring up tho nitro!! We do need evidence, not hearsay.

On the topic of what is the weakest part of their design, its definately the gaiters which are allways a recipe for disaster as they hold aaaall the oil in and they are allways needing to be replaced. They leak almost immediately after fitting and can be a pain to fit! :bang: Thats my issue anyway. Clutch cables I would say ordinarily are ok...for most people On that topic, i hope to fix the problem using my spare 4x4 box I bought of the "police panda".

Cheers,
Si

 

[Uno driver]

Anyone knows if internals of panda/y10 4x4 gearbox are the same as in Uno gearbox? I know gear ratios are different, but from top view gearboxes look the same.

 

[nitro_warrior]

I thought you shattered a diff gear not the gearbox .

Luke.

Indeed it was the diff, but i'm willing to consider the diff and gearbox as one and the same as their technical name is the "transaxle" and are just one big lump.

The biggest problem with the box is definetly the rubber gaiters. Infact it's probably one of the weakest points of the car, they probably let some work experience boy design it.

I'll be watching your mod with interest Si, I think 75HP will be ok, certainly on the road. Just keep a light foot off road, and be careful of steep undulating hills.

 

[pandamonius_maximus]

Indeed it was the diff, but i'm willing to consider the diff and gearbox as one and the same as their technical name is the "transaxle" and are just one big lump.

The biggest problem with the box is definetly the rubber gaiters. Infact it's probably one of the weakest points of the car, they probably let some work experience boy design it.

I'll be watching your mod with interest Si, I think 75HP will be ok, certainly on the road. Just keep a light foot off road, and be careful of steep undulating hills.

I am expecting 70hp from the engine, but would be nice to acheive 80hp as an upper limit and goal :devil: The engine is sitting in my garage all ready to be drained of oil (thats got me stumped at the mo ). Soon to be an abarth thread started :devil::slayer:

Si

 

[lewey]

I believe gearbox weaknesses in the panda are hyped. As nitro says, has there ever been a post on the forum with a gearbox proudly broken as you might have come to expect over the years.

RPM and aggressive driving are the key factors in this. If driven well, you could put loads of power through a 2WD box for quite a while I reckon. Off-road is of course another kettle of fish and you can easily break the boxes on the first crest of a hill, but this is not the box's fault. I broke several in my Land Rover either cresting or trying to get out of sticky situations.

The syncro is the weak part of the Panda box and other FIRE boxes. Even when new they aren't perfect as I have found out with my nearly new Punto box in my Panda.

 

[panda-sport]

I believe gearbox weaknesses in the panda are hyped.

Rather than hyped I think its the different directions that we think of theses things. The pro engineers are baseing this on 'mean time to failure' on a percetage failure rate (usualy less than 2%). There advice is often right but if you are willing to take a gamble (and its a low-ish risk one) then chances are you will be ok. If 3 out of 100 of us "16v" pandas has a gearbox go its hard cheese, if 3000 its out of 1000000 then someone goes broke.

 

[Uno driver]

I checked at eper if part numbers of gearbox internals are the same in Fiat Uno 1108cc and Lancia Y10 4WD. Part numbers are the same, except 4wd related parts

 

[YX75]

Is the final drive ratio in the Panda 4x4 FIRE the same as the Y10 4x4?
Its just I have got a panda gearbox to go into my Y10 but it occured to me the other day that if the diff is a different ratio it will also need a panda rear diff or the front and back wheels will end up going a different speed when in 4x4 mode.

I am a little worried now, I remember reading somewhere that something is different about the two but I cant remember whether it was just the 5th gear ratio or diff ratio. Y10 's are 0.780 for 5th and 5.227 for the final drive. If it is different has anyone got a Panda back axle?

Also I have owned two Panda 4x4 999cc's and neither ever had gearbox problems, always used the correct oil in those. One of them had a really hard life, my brothers friend crashed his company car into a ditch. The Panda was the only thing we had to pull it out. The panda did this in 4x4 with no problems, it must have put a massive strain on the box. The only thing that broke was the company car (Peugeot 206). He tied the rope around the front cross member and the panda bent that out pulling the 206's front wings in and writing it off. My Y10 made noise from the moment I got it, it is not a synchro problem though, I think it is diff bearings on mine.