Technical Gearbox oil

[JakeF]

Hi,

What kind of oil is the right one for my standard 500 gearbox. Fiat recommends SAE 90 EP? What does it actually mean, EP is that the oil contains something? Read somewhere that in 500 you should use not EP oil.
80w-90 gl-1 is quite hard to find, EP 80w-90 gl-4 is almost in every gas station?

Found on KroonOil website:
1.http://www.kroon-oil.com/en/product...otive/kroon-oil-gear-oils/classic-gear-ep-90/
2.http://www.kroon-oil.com/en/product...utomotive/kroon-oil-gear-oils/gear-oil-80w90/

Which one , these are good prices on ebay.

thanks!

 

[the hobbler]

Hi Jake;
May I suggest you contact either (1) Castol Classic Oils--they are in Swavesy in Cambridgeshire (Wakefield House, same building as the MG Owners Club), or (2) Morris Lubricants in Stoke on Trent in Staffordshire or (3) Fuchs Oils who are in Hanley, Stoke on Trent, Staffordshire---the oil youi require may be sold through there Silkolene range.
All these companies supply oils for the classic car scene and should be able to help you, especially Castrol who I have always found give first class service.

 

[JakeF]

Thanks!
At fiatforum.co.uk they say no EP. So how it is, EP or not?

Happy new year btw

 

[JakeF]

Answering myself. Found two types of oil which are the same as Fiat suggest in the owners manual. ZC 90 gear oil and it is api gl-3 rated.
GL-3 is harder to find nowdays.

1. Tutela ZC 90
-http://www.flitalia.it/en/fl/index....vello=1&idCanale=3&idCategoria=10&codPrd=1450

2. Kroon ZC 90
-http://www.kroon-oil.com/en/product...lture/kroon-oil-gear-oils/classic-gear-zc-90/

Found the first one from a finnish fiat online shop, 7€/l.

Hope this helps other people.

 

[Peter Pick-Up]

Selenia (Tutela) is a small, Italian based oil company owned by Fiat, not bad, but average.
Fiat recommends Selenia, which is obvious, because they own Selenia, and make a profit of every liter/gallon oil they sell...!
Kroon is an even smaller Dutch oil company, they buy oil from large companys and rebadged it "Kroon"....!!
I'd go for Castrol, large, and independed with lot's of history and ( racing) experiences, plants all over the world.
www.castrol.com
www.castrol.co.uk
www.castrol.fi

 

[Bambino]

Jake,
The additives in EP oil attack the brass components (bushes & synchros) in the trasnsmission which is why Fiat recommends non-EP oil for its older cars. I'm not sure when they designed
"EP-proof" internals but my car has a 126 transmission from a 1991 car and runs 90EP oil which I'm told is OK.
Here in Australia non-EP transmission oil is getting very hard to find.
Chris

 

[JakeF]

Yep, same here. Difficult to find anything here to older cars or bikes.
Castrol does not import classic oil series to Finland. If want some it needs to be ordered for example from germany.

Motul has a good range of oils here, I've used mineral based 20w-50 in engine.

 

[the hobbler]

Hi Folks;
Now I am back home after my Christmas travels (comes of having offspring spread around the north of the UK) I have dug out my old (1963) Fiat 500 w/shop manual--just to totally confuse everybody, the specifications in it for the 'New 500 and 500D' gearbox is:- Fiat W 90 oil (SAE 90 EP)--make what you like of that!!----personally, I would contact Castrol Classic Oils who have a LOT of experience with classic vehicles and go by their advice:bang:

 

[Peter Pick-Up]

http://www.castrol.com/castrol/genericarticle.do?categoryId=9014115&contentId=7068181

Castrol Universal 75W90 is a non EP gearbox oil.
(No need for special Classic products).

 

[Bambino]

Yep you are right - there it is on page 124 - SAE 90EP. I once owned a very old Alfa (1964) which had modern synchros installed so it could take EP oil, or so I was told.

Now I'm confused, which for me at this time of the year is a fairly normal state of affairs ...

Chris

 

[jjacob]

For my 1969 Fiat 500L Fiat shows 90EP as the recommended oil. I have an original non-synchro transmission.
John

 

[Bambino]

So I guess this reaction between the brass and the EP additives is a myth ?

Chris

 

[jjacob]

Chris,

No I think that the reaction is valid. Usually non EP oil is recommended by manufacturers because the syncros are made of alternative materials (like brass or bronze) that are not compatible with EP oils.
My 2002 Infiniti G20 (Nissan Primera) uses non-EP manual trans oil, the factory specifies GL-4 to be exact.
My 500 does not have syncromesh, so not likely that EP is an issue. However, for those who are using the later synchromesh transmissions, it might be.
I would go with what ever the factory recommends for the particular transmission you are using.
John

 

[Bambino]

Thanks John.

I'll have to recheck with the 126 recommendations though when I did this before I got two different answers. One of the other bulletin boards insisted that all 126 transmissions should run non-EP oil, even the very late model ones. The local transmission guys who helped me with the rebuild about 2 years ago said that EP oil was not only safe but required.

I know from other old car ownership that the early synchro bands/cones were incompatible with EP oil but that during a series run, the material may have been 'upgraded' to accept EP oil. I guess I'm assuming the same thing might have occurred during the long Fiat 126 run and as my transmission was out of a 1991 car, an EP oil will be OK.

I don't have a 126 maintenance manual (yet) so I can't check for sure, but I'll ask around again.

I also assume that none of the bearing surfaces in all of the transmissions contain brass or bronze. Occasionally you will find a long, cylindrical sintered type of bearing/bush surface in steering boxes and distributor shafts but they use different oils or even grease.

I'll do a bit more homework.

Chris

 

[RogerNZ]

Hi Chris, I have an official fiat 126 service manual binder. The pages in each section are dated, to allow for updates over time. The pages for "General Specifications" are dated 1974. They list gearbox oil as "Fiat ZC 90" No mention of EP.

The manual I have is on loan to me from a former service agent, but I have just bought my own own copy on a local online auction site. It should arrive in a day or two. I'll let you know if it has later versions of the service sheets which may specify an EP oil.

Cheers Roger

 

[Bambino]

Fiat ZC90 is a non-EP oil.
I've also heard of people using a similar viscosity engine oil (eg: an SAE 15/40) but I don't want to go there. The viscosity may be nominally similar but I'll bet the dynamic properties (foaming etc.) will be very different.
So far my gearbox is performing perfectly ...
Chris

 

[jjacob]

Synchronizers can be made from a variety of metalurgical formulations. Whatever oil the factory officially states for your model year transmission is what you should use.

Lots of people tend to use out dated information, or "old wives tales" when making recommendations for cars. The fact is that the engineers who designed the transmission knew what was compatible in their transmissions. They know better than some guy sitting at his computer in the UK, USA or anywhere!

Engine oil should never be used in a transmission unless the manufacturer originally designed it that way. Transmission oils are very different from engine oils. Viscosity change over temperature, pressure additives, detergent levels, anti foaming, etc. are all different.
John

 

[Peter Pick-Up]

Don't rely on old service manuals, they are always outdated within a short time...!
Ask the oilcompany of your choice for the latest recommendations for your specific engine/car!

 

[JakeF]

Don't rely on old service manuals, they are always outdated within a short time...!
Ask the oilcompany of your choice for the latest recommendations for your specific engine/car!

But you have to remember it's a 50 years old car. The factory/service manual gives you the correct information, that's my opinion. Just like John said.

 

[Bambino]

I rang the local Penrite distributor who looked up their list of recommended oils for a Fiat 126 transmission. Penrite is a respected brand of oil in Australia. They specialize in oils for older vehicles.
He suggested an SAE 20W60 mineral oil that also doubles as engine oil ...
I questioned this recommendation but he was adamant that the engine oil would be OK.
I told him that for the last two years it's been filled with an EP oil and his response was that it would eventually corrode the brass components but it would take a very long time, longer if the oil is not getting very hot, that is, if the car, like mine, isn't driven much.
I asked if they made a non-EP transmission oil, but they don't because, you guessed it, the similar viscosity engine oil is fine in transmissions.
F**k me - now what ???
Chris