General Fiat stilo issues

[NebulaStilo]

Hi guys,

So I haven't posted in a while since I haven't driven my stilo in ages. It was standing since all tyres was finished.
I saved up and replaced the tyres and mag wheels.

I need a new battery, I'm currently using a battery from one of the works vehicles to drive the car. The battery is basically new. But I need to replace her own battery.
Question 1: why does parts store and the net mention that the stilo needs battery A but it has a raised top so the positive terminal with fuse box on won't fit onto the terminal?

Next problem, I get reguraly a p0638 and now and then a p1687 which is accompanied with limp mode. Switch off and on and most of the time it helps. It's the only codes that returns. The electronics would sometimes go mad and all warning lights would come on and car switch off. I got the code once in a blue moon that refers to ECU PCM processor which is worrying hahaha. Could my ECU need the update or is it the throttle body self? I cleaned it and all already. Reset ecu. Nothing helped. After reseting ecu she runs rough but then corrects herself.

She also has a slipping clutch which is going to be replaced. Do I need to replace syncros or buy a good second hand gearbox because 3rd gear does not want to take. If it does, it will only at a certain rpm and if I remove my foot of the accelerator, it's jumps out and the gear lever would hop. Is this got to do with the clutch because all other gears are good.

She only really slips when the car/clutch is warm.

Appreciate the advice.

 

[Ralf S.]

Battery: I'm not sure what Parts Store is on about. Most batteries fit more than one car and are all pretty much the same. The posts can be cylindrical, or conical or rectangular and could be on the same side, opposite side or back to front .. but that's it. Nothing about "raised tops" in the Ralf database.

Measure the size of the battery tray and work out whether a type 096 willl fit. These are 278x175x190mm high and give you enough cranking power to ignite the ocean, never mind a bit of petrol. Otherwise Stilo's also take a type 027 @ 242x175x190mm high. It'll do the job and might be the standard fitment for the 1.6 anyway.

Both of these have a "standard A" conical post. Positive is top left and Negative is top right.. same as your car. The fuse tray attached to the Positive fits on top.


ECU.. I'm hoping the new battery will sort out your ECU. When you replace the battery, also remove the negative cable from the inner wing and twist it a bit from side to side. If it makes crackling noises, it's most likely breaking down inside the black plastic coating, so a new cable might not be a bad idea.

Otherwise clean up the contact point on the inner wing and on the face of the flat connector on the cable... use a kitchen scourer pad or emery cloth until you see clean metal.. then refit, tighten and grease over the connection, to keep it un-corroded. The battery terminal will be clean, but also clean up the inner faces of the Positive and Negative terminals so they're shiny.. fit, tighten and grease them up (use Vaseline, since it doesn't conduct electricity... but don't get it onto anything made of rubber since it rots it.


Third gear I dunno.. if your clutch is a bit moody then that might cause selection problems but it would affect all gears, particularly first, rather than just a random gear. On the other hand, a dodgy synchro' would make third gear graunch or grind when you changed down from fourth.. so try that. It could be the selector fork... when these get worn out, the main symptom is the gear drops out into neutral and yours is hinting at it.

Some people fix gearboxes... but dismantling a gearbox is no mean feat.. there's plenty of scope for norksing things up and you might find so many components are worn out/sitting in the sump that it would have been easier to fit a new gearbox and saved the labour costs. I would tend to go with a replacement .. ideally rebuilt (by a specialist).. box since they're usually fairly reliable anyway and the chance of getting another duff one is fairly low. If the seller does gearbox rebuilds for a living rather than as a hobby then they ought to a) ask for your old gearbox in part-exchange and b) give you a warranty. Don't buy a "rebuilt" and "guaranteed" gearbox from an outfit that just takes it off the donor car and ships it to you... not unless it's a lot cheaper, anyway.


Ralf S.

 

[NebulaStilo]

Hi Ralf,

So I bought a new battery for the car. Starts much easier and seems to have abit more power. Besides clutch not delivering all power to the wheels.

I took a 60Ah battery. The 1.6 only require a 50ah but I opted for a tad bit stronger

I can get my hands on a 2nd hand working gearbox and replace the clutch with a brand new Valeo repko kit.

That is the next move with the stilo.

Seem to be getting somewhere now.

 

[Ralf S.]

Good idea with the 60Ah battery... it's a bit heavier and a bit more expensive but the extra juice makes up for it.

Manufacturers usually fit the smallest battery that will do the job, which is great when everything's new.. but when everything's a bit older, oilier and more worn out, the extra power comes in useful. Luckily the battery tray is always sized for the biggest battery in the range (which is usually the diesel-engined variant).

Gearbox swap is quite a big job, so book some holidays off work.. make yourself a lot of space... and put the car on axle stands before you start.
You'll need to remove the two wheel arch liners and the driveshafts.
The wheel hub nut has to be undone, so do this before you put the car on stands.
Check you can undo the gear oil filler, then drain the old gear oil.

I also removed the battery and the battery tray to get better access to the gearbox.
Then it's a case of removing the gearbox mounts, starter motor, the gear cables etc. until you're left with the gearbox itself.

The gearbox is hooked onto some dowels and the input shaft so once you have all the blots out, you need to pull it outwards (into the wheel arch) and then it will clear the shaft and come out. I used a trolley jack to support it and had lots of half-squashed boxes/old blankets on the ground to catch the gearbox if/when you lower it off the jack and drop it onto the ground... although if you have a new box it might not matter if you break the old one.


Ralf S.

 

[NebulaStilo]

Good idea with the 60Ah battery... it's a bit heavier and a bit more expensive but the extra juice makes up for it.

Manufacturers usually fit the smallest battery that will do the job, which is great when everything's new.. but when everything's a bit older, oilier and more worn out, the extra power comes in useful. Luckily the battery tray is always sized for the biggest battery in the range (which is usually the diesel-engined variant).

Gearbox swap is quite a big job, so book some holidays off work.. make yourself a lot of space... and put the car on axle stands before you start.
You'll need to remove the two wheel arch liners and the driveshafts.
The wheel hub nut has to be undone, so do this before you put the car on stands.
Check you can undo the gear oil filler, then drain the old gear oil.

I also removed the battery and the battery tray to get better access to the gearbox.
Then it's a case of removing the gearbox mounts, starter motor, the gear cables etc. until you're left with the gearbox itself.

The gearbox is hooked onto some dowels and the input shaft so once you have all the blots out, you need to pull it outwards (into the wheel arch) and then it will clear the shaft and come out. I used a trolley jack to support it and had lots of half-squashed boxes/old blankets on the ground to catch the gearbox if/when you lower it off the jack and drop it onto the ground... although if you have a new box it might not matter if you break the old one.


Ralf S.

Thanks Ralf.

So yeah I opted for a bit bigger battery. Great CCA.

Yeah once I buy the box then I'll use works vehicles. The job will be done at my place of work. New clutch will go in too.

I've noticed that you will be driving at a constant on a highway and he will surge in rpm but won't make a difference on the speed of the vehicle. So revs will drop, slightly but noticeable when listening, then back up to where it supposed to be. It's smooth drop, not like a misfire. But the car will be traveling at that same speed, it won't 'holdback'.

Can I be correct in saying that th clutch could be causing that surge I had on acceleration. Remember my initial symptoms we had endless threads aboutto me, correct me if I'm wrong, it's pointing to a clutch. Like the surge on acceleration could've been a clutch engaging and disengaging very slightly on its own.

Thanks

 

[rattlenroll34]

Before going to the effort and cost of a new gearbox, have you checked the gearbox oil? It could be the reason for a iffy 3rd gear?
I'm speaking from experience. I had a Porsche Boxster with a slipping gearbox and all it took was an oil change. Could be wrong but surely worth a try?

Compo

 

[NebulaStilo]

Before going to the effort and cost of a new gearbox, have you checked the gearbox oil? It could be the reason for a iffy 3rd gear?
I'm speaking from experience. I had a Porsche Boxster with a slipping gearbox and all it took was an oil change. Could be wrong but surely worth a try?

Compo

HI Compo

Thanks for your reply.

Can a box slip making it seem like it's a clutch?

Also could you point me to a thread or give me a guide on how to Check gearbox oil level.
Also what oil do you use in a gearbox? 80w90?

Thanks.

 

[Maxcaddy]

Can a box slip making it seem like it's a clutch?

Absolutely, does it all the time on Automatics .

 

[NebulaStilo]

Can a box slip making it seem like it's a clutch?

Absolutely, does it all the time on Automatics .

Hi

LOL thanks for the reply.

I located the filler plug, it's next to the ground cable on the gearbox. The drain plug looks like it's further down.

I opened the filler plug and it started pouring out so I closed it again. Only a little got out. It was black. Looked like engine oil. I didn't carry on because I needed the car. I think I should drain it then top up with oil again.

Can you tell me the procedure etc when draining and refilling the box. How do I know its full etc.

 

[Ralf S.]

If your filler is on the front of the gearbox, slightly above halfway up (let's say roughly at "10 o'clock position" if you were looking at the gearbox from inside the left hand wheel-arch) then you would fill it just by parking the car on level ground and adding the new oil into the gearbox until it reached the level of the hole and started to run out.

You may have enough room at the front of the gearbox to stuff the rubber tube of the gear oil bottle (the tube is under the lid and pulls out about 4") into the filler hole and then squeeze the bottle gently to get the oil out. I think the 1.6 has a gear oil capacity of 1.98 ltrs so you'll need almost 2 full bottles of transmission oil.. but when you get halfway through the second bottle you can slow down with the filling and let the oil level settle.. then add a tiny bit at a time until it reaches the level of the hole and starts coming out. Refit the filler cap and that's that.

The gear oil should be clean and golden brown.. and smell a bit of bacon. It doesn't get black and doesn't pour out of the filler hole (since the level is always lower than the filler hole, see up there ^^ ) so it's worrying that your gear oil wants to escape and is black. Are you sure you unscrewed the gear oil filler hole and not some random bolt on the engine?

The drain plug looks a bit like the sump plug but will be under the gearbox, or on the outside (facing the wheel arch) next to the driveshaft.
If you're not sure you have the correct bolt, post a picture of it on here, so we can help.

If your box is "full of black oil" then something medieval has happened to it. Drain it and put the correct quantity of the proper oil in there (SAE 75W90) as soon as you can.


Ralf S.

 

[NebulaStilo]

If your filler is on the front of the gearbox, slightly above halfway up (let's say roughly at "10 o'clock position" if you were looking at the gearbox from inside the left hand wheel-arch) then you would fill it just by parking the car on level ground and adding the new oil into the gearbox until it reached the level of the hole and started to run out.

You may have enough room at the front of the gearbox to stuff the rubber tube of the gear oil bottle (the tube is under the lid and pulls out about 4") into the filler hole and then squeeze the bottle gently to get the oil out. I think the 1.6 has a gear oil capacity of 1.98 ltrs so you'll need almost 2 full bottles of transmission oil.. but when you get halfway through the second bottle you can slow down with the filling and let the oil level settle.. then add a tiny bit at a time until it reaches the level of the hole and starts coming out. Refit the filler cap and that's that.

The gear oil should be clean and golden brown.. and smell a bit of bacon. It doesn't get black and doesn't pour out of the filler hole (since the level is always lower than the filler hole, see up there ^^ ) so it's worrying that your gear oil wants to escape and is black. Are you sure you unscrewed the gear oil filler hole and not some random bolt on the engine?

The drain plug looks a bit like the sump plug but will be under the gearbox, or on the outside (facing the wheel arch) next to the driveshaft.
If you're not sure you have the correct bolt, post a picture of it on here, so we can help.

If your box is "full of black oil" then something medieval has happened to it. Drain it and put the correct quantity of the proper oil in there (SAE 75W90) as soon as you can.


Ralf S.

HI Ralf

I'm not with the beast at the moment. I've located a Pic from another thread of the bolt I unscrewed. It looks like the engine oil sump plug. Uses the same tool I use to open the sump plug. Pics belong to @richydraper

I couldn't get good access to the screw from on top. I had to raise the car one side slightly to gain better access from the bottom. I don't know if that maybe caused it to run out.

Is there a filter to change on the gearbox when changing the fluid?

 

[Ralf S.]

The first picture seems to show the drain screw on the right/lower and the filler on the left/top corner.

Before you do anything with the gear oil, make sure you can unscrew both the screws... i.e. don't drain the oil before you managed to unscrew the filler, in case it's jammed/seized etc. and doesn't want to come out. You'll at least still be able to drive the car until you get it sorted.

There's no filter.. you just unscrew and remove the filler bolt, and then unscrew and remove the drain bolt. When the oil has all dripped out, refit the drain screw and then add oil to gearbox via the filler hole until the oil reaches the filler hole and starts to come out.

The car must be on a level surface, since if it's pointing up hill for example, you'll end up over-filling the gearbox.

If you have the manual and can confirm the 1.6 needs 1.98 litres of oil, then you could park it up hill and just stick around 1.9 litres in there and that'll be near enough (you gearbox will always have *some* oil left behind).. but the level surface and fill it till it comes out is better.

Interesting that the oil is black.. you'll need to post a photo.


Ralf S.

 

[NebulaStilo]

The first picture seems to show the drain screw on the right/lower and the filler on the left/top corner.

Before you do anything with the gear oil, make sure you can unscrew both the screws... i.e. don't drain the oil before you managed to unscrew the filler, in case it's jammed/seized etc. and doesn't want to come out. You'll at least still be able to drive the car until you get it sorted.

There's no filter.. you just unscrew and remove the filler bolt, and then unscrew and remove the drain bolt. When the oil has all dripped out, refit the drain screw and then add oil to gearbox via the filler hole until the oil reaches the filler hole and starts to come out.

The car must be on a level surface, since if it's pointing up hill for example, you'll end up over-filling the gearbox.

If you have the manual and can confirm the 1.6 needs 1.98 litres of oil, then you could park it up hill and just stick around 1.9 litres in there and that'll be near enough (you gearbox will always have *some* oil left behind).. but the level surface and fill it till it comes out is better.

Interesting that the oil is black.. you'll need to post a photo.


Ralf S.

HI Ralf,

Thank you. I am able unscrew the filler cap, that cap I unscrewed where the gear oil came out is the one in the first Pic on the top left. It looked like that and definately wasn't the engine oil plug.

But it's worrying besides it being black, why is there so much oil in my box. I didn't let it run out, it just started coming out so I closed it again. Perhaps it would've stopped if I let it run abit longer.

When I drain gear oil, I hope there wasn't damage to anything inside otherwise I will have to replace the box sooner.

Can the box slip so that it seems like it's the clutch slipping?
Remember I mentioned that it slips when it's hot, perhaps that is the oil getting hot and when oil is hot it thins out meaning less protection etc.

Thanks for your advice

 

[jackwhoo]

Can the box slip so that it seems like it's the clutch slipping?

No , that is not possible with your manual gearbox.

 

[Ralf S.]

HI Ralf,

Thank you. I am able unscrew the filler cap, that cap I unscrewed where the gear oil came out is the one in the first Pic on the top left. It looked like that and definately wasn't the engine oil plug.

But it's worrying besides it being black, why is there so much oil in my box. I didn't let it run out, it just started coming out so I closed it again. Perhaps it would've stopped if I let it run abit longer.

When I drain gear oil, I hope there wasn't damage to anything inside otherwise I will have to replace the box sooner.

Can the box slip so that it seems like it's the clutch slipping?
Remember I mentioned that it slips when it's hot, perhaps that is the oil getting hot and when oil is hot it thins out meaning less protection etc.

Thanks for your advice

I did wonder why the oil is coming out when you unscrew the filler.. but you may have had it on a slope (nose down) etc.. and since you're going to drain it and refill it, it's slightly academic.

The gearbox can't slip on a manual... but if the gearbox is overfilled with oil you may have some escaping past the gearbox input shaft seal, into the clutch bell-housing, and that certainly won't help your clutch to not slip. But too much oil leaking through the gearbox seal tends to drip out of the bottom at the join of the engine and the bell-housing, so you would notice a bad leak. Similarly, if your drive-shaft seals aren't leaking, I don't suppose there's *way* too much oil in there.

Too much oil in the gearbox just gets mashed up by the gear cogs and shafts and ends up getting frothy, like when you blow a straw through your milkshake. Apart from it creates pressure inside the gearbox (which can force oil out through one of the seals) frothy oil doesn't lubricate very well so you tend to wreck the gearbox bearings long term. A little too much is usually okay.

Why it's black I have no idea... and this is the biggest mystery for me. Engine oil turns black because it's following the pistons up the cylinder bores and comes into contact with combustion soot etc. on the cylinder liners. Gear oil doesn't get soot in it, so it doesn't usually turn black. Maybe the oil is the wrong grade and has become over-heated (does it smell burnt?) .. or it may be the wrong type of oil for the car and contains additives in it that attack the bronze components inside some gearboxes.. (I'm not sure whether 1.6 has bronze parts in it) but it'll be something like that.


Ralf S.

 

[NebulaStilo]

I did wonder why the oil is coming out when you unscrew the filler.. but you may have had it on a slope (nose down) etc.. and since you're going to drain it and refill it, it's slightly academic.

The gearbox can't slip on a manual... but if the gearbox is overfilled with oil you may have some escaping past the gearbox input shaft seal, into the clutch bell-housing, and that certainly won't help your clutch to not slip. But too much oil leaking through the gearbox seal tends to drip out of the bottom at the join of the engine and the bell-housing, so you would notice a bad leak. Similarly, if your drive-shaft seals aren't leaking, I don't suppose there's *way* too much oil in there.

Too much oil in the gearbox just gets mashed up by the gear cogs and shafts and ends up getting frothy, like when you blow a straw through your milkshake. Apart from it creates pressure inside the gearbox (which can force oil out through one of the seals) frothy oil doesn't lubricate very well so you tend to wreck the gearbox bearings long term. A little too much is usually okay.

Why it's black I have no idea... and this is the biggest mystery for me. Engine oil turns black because it's following the pistons up the cylinder bores and comes into contact with combustion soot etc. on the cylinder liners. Gear oil doesn't get soot in it, so it doesn't usually turn black. Maybe the oil is the wrong grade and has become over-heated (does it smell burnt?) .. or it may be the wrong type of oil for the car and contains additives in it that attack the bronze components inside some gearboxes.. (I'm not sure whether 1.6 has bronze parts in it) but it'll be something like that.


Ralf S.

I had the car on an angle. Left front was jacked up abit.

So, I have noticed not a leak as where it would drip. No leak from the drive shafts.
I noticed a sweat yes between the bell housing and engine. Like a hard black messy oil. Not so hard but not runny. Like it's been there for a while. However this sweat is also sitting on the side of the engine where the crank and cam sensor connectors sit on the 1.6 i.e not the side where the oil filter is. Opposite side of engine but also abit of sweat on filter side of the engine however not so much as what I recall last going under her belly.

There is no sign wherever I park of a leak. Heavy on engine oil yes because of her bad valve seal. I try not to coast or use the engine to break, she burns oil when I press accelerator again after coasting in a gear then clears up. If I don't coast in gear then her top ups last longer.
She doesn't always smoke though. It's not a continuous smoking only as explained above.

I digress

@jackwhoo , so that means it's definately my clutch that's bad then.
She only slips when warmed up.

I think a nice brand new Valeo clutch and just get me a nice 2nd hand gearbox and fit them both.

Thank you for your replies

 

[NebulaStilo]

I did wonder why the oil is coming out when you unscrew the filler.. but you may have had it on a slope (nose down) etc.. and since you're going to drain it and refill it, it's slightly academic.

The gearbox can't slip on a manual... but if the gearbox is overfilled with oil you may have some escaping past the gearbox input shaft seal, into the clutch bell-housing, and that certainly won't help your clutch to not slip. But too much oil leaking through the gearbox seal tends to drip out of the bottom at the join of the engine and the bell-housing, so you would notice a bad leak. Similarly, if your drive-shaft seals aren't leaking, I don't suppose there's *way* too much oil in there.

Too much oil in the gearbox just gets mashed up by the gear cogs and shafts and ends up getting frothy, like when you blow a straw through your milkshake. Apart from it creates pressure inside the gearbox (which can force oil out through one of the seals) frothy oil doesn't lubricate very well so you tend to wreck the gearbox bearings long term. A little too much is usually okay.

Why it's black I have no idea... and this is the biggest mystery for me. Engine oil turns black because it's following the pistons up the cylinder bores and comes into contact with combustion soot etc. on the cylinder liners. Gear oil doesn't get soot in it, so it doesn't usually turn black. Maybe the oil is the wrong grade and has become over-heated (does it smell burnt?) .. or it may be the wrong type of oil for the car and contains additives in it that attack the bronze components inside some gearboxes.. (I'm not sure whether 1.6 has bronze parts in it) but it'll be something like that.


Ralf S.

HI Ralf,

Off the record,

What is the part number of the fuel pump for 1.6 16v stilo.
A major service is due soon. Fuel pump and filter and plugs etc.

Do you know of any tutorials on how to properly install the pump with the filter/siff? I struggled last time and cannot remember.

Thank you

 

[Ralf S.]

The fuel pump for the 1.6 16v looks like 51705573 although there is also a 1.6 called the 1.6 PDA 100kW 16v which has a different pump 51741423.

There is also a gasket ring that is worth getting, since the old one will have swollen up a bit and might not go back properly - 46797215.


But why are you changing the pump? Usually they last forever until they pack up.. so they don't need changing as a service item.
It's held into the tank with a big threaded nylon ring, that just screws onto a collar on the tank. The pump just lifts out, once you have disconnected the fuel lines and unscrewed the nylon ring... fitting a new one just entails fitting the new gasket, dropping in the fuel pump and screwing the ring down to hold it in.

I'm not sure where the fuel filter is on these... but the old style "cannister" filters are only present on the diesel models, where their main job seems to be to separate any water in the fuel. I think the petrols only have a gauze/filter at the pump pick-up.. though you might have an aftermarket filter somewhere in the pipework, if someone had "grit in the fuel" problems and fitted one in the past. These are usually plastic and you can see how many particles there are inside.. but changing them every second service/two years isn't too expensive.


Ralf S.