Technical FIAT DUCATO 2.8 (2000) MOTORHOME GEARBOX ISSUE

[Communicator]

Gentlemen. I am not a moderator, but while your reminiscences are interesting, they are off topic and seem to have hi-jacked @Mrbxx s thread.

 

[airwave]

Sounds like you have had some fun.
The Stag was the original 3 litre with chain drive cams and shims for the valve clearances, I recall measuring them all up after rebuilding the engine, then going over to the Triumph Dealers with a micrometer and ferreting through all their spare shims. The hardest part was getting the heads off in the first place as they corroded to the studs, did that part with engine in place, sounds brutal but had to knock wedges into the gasket area to prize the head up enough to them use a pair of molegrips holding a broken hacksaw blade to saw off the old studs to allow head removal. I believe it took several tonnes on a hydraulic press to get the studs out of the heads to skim them, but it all went together well in the end. As you say gorgeous looking car with the roll bar built in etc. I just thought it was a shame when people just put in an old Rover auto in place of original in so many.
I had a Mk 2 Granada 2 litre Estate (Pinto engine) I put a 1800 Sherpa engine and gearbox in it, don't ask why. It would have been fine as it was a rebuilt engine but for the fact the machine shop who fitted dry liners neglected to skim the block, it resembled a rain gutter and blew the head gasket very quickly.
I used used to be in a rowing club (cheap beer) when hang gliders first started to become popular and a couple of people there took it up, next thing one was all in plaster for months, so it didn't appeal to me.
I suspect the "smoke" was really gas in the Swallow project, my dad died at 48 so it may not have done him any good.
My last boat was only 21ft, but a good strong Dannish build Botved Boats Coronet of around 1970 .

Have you noticed , we seem to have hijacked this thread . Dunno what happened to the @Mrbxx , but he seems to have disappeared . I'm pretty confident , i've solved his problem , albeit at a price . The latest link i posted seems to cover all the requirement hes needs , but i also suspect i may have found the answer for synchromesh rings he was hoping for . It does involve 2 kits , but despite this the repair would cost considerably less . Though the cost of such a repair will probably be significant in itself .

Oh i can't complain , i have to admit , but then you seem to have had a whale of a time yourself .

Yeah i do agree , i do like to try and keep things original where i can , but sometimes you do have to go off piste , to finish a job or even to improve the outcome . I've done this on my duke where some parts are not even available . I have been lucky mechanically , 98% of the parts , are still available , though with the vehicle being an import , i've had to look abroad for much of it . But trim and a few other bit's will prove to be impossible to source , and this is where you need to think outside the box . The cooling system was probably the worst with parts coming from as far a field , as Poland and Italy . Spent many an hour , on the internet searching for bits , but the result was completely successful . The only original parts are the cooling fans , and the engine itself . But even here , i've modified the system by adding a manual override to the cooling fans . I think the record distance is probably the fuse block . I found the original melted shortly after i brought the van , i knew it was unlikely to be held in stock anywhere . Eventually , i found a second hand one in Lithuania at a breakers , mind you , it still took three years . It's original , and now fitted . Another job i did a while back was the wiper relay , never seen anything like it . Then i discovered the same relay was fitted to early Range Rovers , and after that it became much easier to source . What i have discovered is simple job , can very quickly become much bigger , perhaps the best example of this was the rear wheel bearings . Removing the near side drum , i discovered a wet patch on the hub . Yep you guessed it , wheel cylinder leaking . That one simple job led to the entire system being replaced , except for the back plates , and diverter mounted on the rear axle . Fiat had used some kind of alloy which basically welded itself to everything , and i couldn't get joints apart without damage . I was lucky with the diverter , though i needed a vice and a good ring spanner to separate them . Over here , a normal brass version is 3 quid , the Fiat part worked out at 130 , because you have to buy a pack of 5 , at 20 odd quid each plus vat , and i needed 1 . I'm currently engaged with a complete power system overhaul , and it's here , i've had my first no show . I can't locate a low pressure return hose anywhere , home or abroad , despite having the original part number . Got everything else , and it's all original , but the last pipe , i'm gonna have to make .
I've also had to replace huge chunks of wiring , mainly in the Hymer coversion , but also some of the original Fiat wire . It was here , i found a condition i call black , wire by accident , basically the wire core is corroding . Water has penetrated the sheathing and the core turns black . You can't solder it , and crimps just fall off , until eventually it won't carry current . To all intents , the wire is rotting , funny thing though , i've only ever found it on indicator circuits , and also yet to see it on any positive wire . I first came across it on my mother's Rover Mini , strangely indicators as well , but that was in a far worse state .
Done loads of other jobs , all of varying sizes , tons under the bonnet , welded the front bumper , painting bodywork , you name it , i've probably done it .

So i was right , Navy huh , good guess . It appears to be some kind of experimental weapons dept , but from what i understand mainly with rockets . So basically your dad played with rockets , wow i bet that was interesting . Interesting you mention smoke though , there is no mention of this work . Of course smoke can give off a gas , and gases were being experimented with , of that i have no doubt , but i think it more likely , that the propellant produced a noxious substance . Early rocket propellant used some quite dodgy substances .

Yes , i'll be honest , hang gliders are dangerous , but in relative terms , no more so , than any other form of aerial activity . Accidents will happen if you take liberties , and that is so often the cause . One example is a student we trained , who broke his back after spinning in . It turns out he was flying with a different harness not actually meant for hang gliding , which altered the gliders performance . A well meaning coach altered the glider to try and improve the performance , which ended up with the glider stalling twice , ultimately spinning in at low level . Now lets not forget , this was a low air time student , so why was he flying with such a harness . Another student , would frequently have an accident , on average once a year . His last effort resulted in a broken wrist , and that was the turning point , he quit shortly after . Now this one was due to him stalling on take off , while flying a powered harness . It turns out , in his own words , the wing started to turn , which he began to correct , while he was dealing with something else that was of far less importance . In other words he didn't fly the plane , by the time he started to do what he should be , the ending was already sealed . At low level , with one wing stalled , the turn continued , until he came back to earth , fracturing his wrist . Now when i quizzed him on this , it's clear the wing was already beginning to stall before he had even left the ground . I know it's brutal , but can you see the common denominators here ?

 

[airwave]

Gentlemen. I am not a moderator, but while your reminiscences are interesting, they are off topic and seem to have hi-jacked @Mrbxx s thread.

Yes , you may have noticed , i've just mentioned as such . But Thanks for the update though

 

[ROBROY10]

Yes your quite correct , there were two gearboxes fitted to the 2.8 . The MG5TU , which i believe is the earlier version , and the ME5TU , which also found it's way into the later JTD .
I can only advise on identifying the MG5 , as i also have that gearbox , and maybe the easiest way , is pattern layout . Reverse is right and down , where left and up , is the later ME5 .
Further identification will require a look under the bonnet , but i see in your case , the gearbox has been removed , so first check the clutch lever . The MG5 is a pull movement , in your case away from the bell housing , and the ME5 is a push . Lastly , standing at the front of the engine with the bell housing to your left , look at the right hand side of the gearbox . Is there a smaller casting sticking out further to the right , than the bulk of the box , probably with a black cover , but not necessarily so . That is an MG5 .

Try Coastal motorhomes , based somewhere on the southcoast . i think around Ringwood , Bournemouth area , for parts . Failing that Brownhills , in Newark . Both are helpful , but if you have an import (left hand drive) , you will need the vin number .

Thirdly , though it's possible the gearbox casing may fit , i seriously doubt the gearbox ratios will be the same on a 1.9 . I wouldn't want to call it .

Hi I know this is an old post but do you happen to know if the MG5TU

Yes your quite correct , there were two gearboxes fitted to the 2.8 . The MG5TU , which i believe is the earlier version , and the ME5TU , which also found it's way into the later JTD .
I can only advise on identifying the MG5 , as i also have that gearbox , and maybe the easiest way , is pattern layout . Reverse is right and down , where left and up , is the later ME5 .
Further identification will require a look under the bonnet , but i see in your case , the gearbox has been removed , so first check the clutch lever . The MG5 is a pull movement , in your case away from the bell housing , and the ME5 is a push . Lastly , standing at the front of the engine with the bell housing to your left , look at the right hand side of the gearbox . Is there a smaller casting sticking out further to the right , than the bulk of the box , probably with a black cover , but not necessarily so . That is an MG5 .

Try Coastal motorhomes , based somewhere on the southcoast . i think around Ringwood , Bournemouth area , for parts . Failing that Brownhills , in Newark . Both are helpful , but if you have an import (left hand drive) , you will need the vin number .

Thirdly , though it's possible the gearbox casing may fit , i seriously doubt the gearbox ratios will be the same on a 1.9 . I wouldn't want to call it .

Hi I know this is an old post but do you happen to know if the MG5TU gearbox has a larger gearbox oil capacity? I had my 5th gear end casing off for repair and refilled gearbox through the reversing switch on top of gearbox ! Problem is I have put 3 litres of oil in and it’s still not coming out the fill hole on the side of the gearbox ! Any help would be much appreciated! Regards Richard

 

[Communicator]

MG5TU ??? I thought the later box as fitted to my 2006 2.8jtd, was designated MLGU, at least that is what eLearn says, but then eLearn does contain errors.

See attached print from eLearn, and yes it does say 2.0 16V in the heading, even though I carefully selected 2.8jtd.

If you scroll down to page 2, you will see that capacity is quoted as 2.7 +/- 0.3 litres.

 

[ROBROY10]

MG5TU ??? I thought the later box as fitted to my 2006 2.8jtd, was designated MLGU, at least that is what eLearn says, but then eLearn does contain errors.

See attached print from eLearn, and yes it does say 2.0 16V in the heading, even though I carefully selected 2.8jtd.

If you scroll down to page 2, you will see that capacity is quoted as 2.7 +/- 0.3 litres.

Mines is the earlier (2001) 2.8 jtd with reverse gear right and back which the knowledgeable member says is the MG5TU Version ! I had no idea there was two different although similar gearboxes !

 

[airwave]

Hi I know this is an old post but do you happen to know if the MG5TU gearbox has a larger gearbox oil capacity? I had my 5th gear end casing off for repair and refilled gearbox through the reversing switch on top of gearbox ! Problem is I have put 3 litres of oil in and it’s still not coming out the fill hole on the side of the gearbox ! Any help would be much appreciated! Regards Richard

As far as i remember , the designed capacities are the same at 1.6 litres . Though it is recommended to over fill to 2.2l due to the splash feed nature of the 5th gear arrangement , i later increased this to 2.6 litres for added piece of mind . Only once , did i ever fill to 3 litres , but i drained some of this off , when for some reason , something made me realise i had probably brimmed the sump , which is probably not a good move . Trouble is this was some time ago , and i can't remember what the something was ?

Now i can't explain why you're not having fluid spilling from the fill hole , this is very strange , and there is further risk here i could mix this with another one of my vehicles . However i will add that transmission fluid is a very sticky liquid , meaning it can take some time to fully drain a sump . I've never heard of , or found a way to flush these sumps , so it is highly likely i still have some fluid inside , even after a drained down . That is however pure conjecture based on these particular fluid's . I usually leave transmission and diff sumps to drip for a couple of hours after draining , before refilling . I also seem to remember there was something strange with the fill hole arrangement on the Fiat , so never used them . Instead i filled with a measured amount , through just as you have the reverse light switch hole and didn't rely on the fill hole . My guess (purely a guess though) is that you are pretty much there . I need to mull this one over tonight , ??? .

 

[ROBROY10]

As far as i remember , the designed capacities are the same at 1.6 litres . Though it is recommended to over fill to 2.2l due to the splash feed nature of the 5th gear arrangement , i later increased this to 2.6 litres for added piece of mind . Only once , did i ever fill to 3 litres , but i drained some of this off , when for some reason , something made me realise i had probably brimmed the sump , which is probably not a good move . Trouble is this was some time ago , and i can't remember what the something was ?

Now i can't explain why you're not having fluid spilling from the fill hole , this is very strange , and there is further risk here i could mix this with another one of my vehicles . However i will add that transmission fluid is a very sticky liquid , meaning it can take some time to fully drain a sump . I've never heard of , or found a way to flush these sumps , so it is highly likely i still have some fluid inside , even after a drained down . That is however pure conjecture based on these particular fluid's . I usually leave transmission and diff sumps to drip for a couple of hours after draining , before refilling . I also seem to remember there was something strange with the fill hole arrangement on the Fiat , so never used them . Instead i filled with a measured amount , through just as you have the reverse light switch hole and didn't rely on the fill hole . My guess (purely a guess though) is that you are pretty much there . I need to mull this one over tonight , ??? .

The van has been sitting for a couple of days now ! I will I will take the fill hole bolt out again and see if any oil comes out ? If not I will drain the gearbox and measure how much comes out ! Thanks for taking the time to reply and if you remember anything else that may be of help then I’m all ears !

 

[airwave]

Okay a quick point of reference here , and a little off subject . But at 2001 , and a 2.8 , i find it highly likely you have a IDTD direct injection engine , not the later JTD . I would also point out at the same time , that this would have been the actual change over period , where the JTD would have just begun to appear in converted vehicles , so it's not impossible you are correct , and you do have a JTD , but it will be worth your time establishing your actual engine , if you indeed have not done so already ! . My vehicle is a 2000 , and an IDTD .

Right so on that note , lets get back to your problem , and let me deal with the easy one first , drain and fill holes ! . Yes i do remove both of them for draining using the upper one as a breather , but once draining is complete and following a drip period replace both and torque down . I use a pressure vessel for refilling very much like a garden sprayer , but instead of a nozzel , it has a tube to refill . So i just fill with my oil , insert the tube , and pressurise the bottle . Little mess , and of course no waste . In the absence of a fill point , i fill through the reversing light socket , and ignore the upper side fill socket . Why do i ignore this , it's very simple , i'm overfilling the sump . So logic dictates that once the level reaches this point , i won't be able to over fill any further .

I would like to ask at this point for clarification . Work has been purely limited to the 5th gear , no other work has been completed on or in the gearbox at this time ? , and only the nearside extension plate has been removed , Yes ?

So , you have filled with 3L of fluid and it's still not dripping . I can't explain this one , it's very strange . I see you have since posted the van has stood for a couple of days , yet this is something i would have expected . I've never done this job myself , but i have read up on the task , and would expect to take something similar . I believe book period for this job is about 3-4 hours , but that is for someone who knows what they are doing , with the proper tools at hand (no offence) . But my question is , did you leave the drain plugs removed during these two days ? .
Another i would ask , is did you complete this job with the vehicle on the ground ? . I seem to recall the book mentions removing the nearside wheel for better access , did you do this ? . And one very important question , are you refilling on the jack ? . You should only measure , and adjust fluid levels with all four wheels on the ground , and with the vehicle on level ground !!!! . If your refilling on the jack the overfill hole will be higher than it should , so giving a false reading ! .
Failing that , i would suggest you get a piece of wire , and bend it into a "L" shape , and poke this into the upper fill hole , to see if there is any fluid present . You say you're going to drain and measure the fluid ! . Yes i would vote for that too , this would be a double check that you have indeed filled to 3L .

 

[ROBROY10]

Okay a quick point of reference here , and a little off subject . But at 2001 , and a 2.8 , i find it highly likely you have a IDTD direct injection engine , not the later JTD . I would also point out at the same time , that this would have been the actual change over period , where the JTD would have just begun to appear in converted vehicles , so it's not impossible you are correct , and you do have a JTD , but it will be worth your time establishing your actual engine , if you indeed have not done so already ! . My vehicle is a 2000 , and an IDTD .

Right so on that note , lets get back to your problem , and let me deal with the easy one first , drain and fill holes ! . Yes i do remove both of them for draining using the upper one as a breather , but once draining is complete and following a drip period replace both and torque down . I use a pressure vessel for refilling very much like a garden sprayer , but instead of a nozzel , it has a tube to refill . So i just fill with my oil , insert the tube , and pressurise the bottle . Little mess , and of course no waste . In the absence of a fill point , i fill through the reversing light socket , and ignore the upper side fill socket . Why do i ignore this , it's very simple , i'm overfilling the sump . So logic dictates that once the level reaches this point , i won't be able to over fill any further .

I would like to ask at this point for clarification . Work has been purely limited to the 5th gear , no other work has been completed on or in the gearbox at this time ? , and only the nearside extension plate has been removed , Yes ?

So , you have filled with 3L of fluid and it's still not dripping . I can't explain this one , it's very strange . I see you have since posted the van has stood for a couple of days , yet this is something i would have expected . I've never done this job myself , but i have read up on the task , and would expect to take something similar . I believe book period for this job is about 3-4 hours , but that is for someone who knows what they are doing , with the proper tools at hand (no offence) . But my question is , did you leave the drain plugs removed during these two days ? .
Another i would ask , is did you complete this job with the vehicle on the ground ? . I seem to recall the book mentions removing the nearside wheel for better access , did you do this ? . And one very important question , are you refilling on the jack ? . You should only measure , and adjust fluid levels with all four wheels on the ground , and with the vehicle on level ground !!!! . If your refilling on the jack the overfill hole will be higher than it should , so giving a false reading ! .
Failing that , i would suggest you get a piece of wire , and bend it into a "L" shape , and poke this into the upper fill hole , to see if there is any fluid present . You say you're going to drain and measure the fluid ! . Yes i would vote for that too , this would be a double check that you have indeed filled to 3L .

My van is definitely the 2.8 jtd it says exactly that on the front wing ! Yes the only work done was the removal of 5th gear end cover which was repaired and put back on and 3 individual 1 litre bottles of oil poured in through the reversing switch while fill point bolt was removed waiting for the oil to eventually start to dribble out ! It didn’t ! Yes I made sure the van was level ! Mines is a large van and I was kind of hoping it may have a larger capacity gearbox but seems they might all be the same capacity ? Unless anyone knows different ? I’ve been back to the van this morning after it’s been sitting for 2 days and still no oil from fill point ! Going to take it for a short drive and recheck ! Thanks everyone for your help so far

 

[airwave]

My van is definitely the 2.8 jtd it says exactly that on the front wing ! Yes the only work done was the removal of 5th gear end cover which was repaired and put back on and 3 individual 1 litre bottles of oil poured in through the reversing switch while fill point bolt was removed waiting for the oil to eventually start to dribble out ! It didn’t ! Yes I made sure the van was level ! Mines is a large van and I was kind of hoping it may have a larger capacity gearbox but seems they might all be the same capacity ? Unless anyone knows different ? I’ve been back to the van this morning after it’s been sitting for 2 days and still no oil from fill point ! Going to take it for a short drive and recheck ! Thanks everyone for your help so far

I think this maybe a good idea too . Keep your speed down , and do not engage 5th , for at least a good 10 minutes . It is bone dry right now ! and you need that oil good and warm , and thin to get into the 5th gear housing .

I'm going out for the afternoon , so i'm not gonna be around , but i will be back later this evening . This is all rather odd , and i would like to discover more .

I know the 2.8 can have problems with oil pressure when stood for long periods . Mine was stood for a couple of years while work was completed on the cooling system , oil system , power steering , and timing . All either rebuilt or overhauled , so i overfilled my sump with a flushing oil prior to start . I figured the pump likely was draining , and not re-priming . The plan was to re-prime the oil pump , with a lighter oil ready for a heavier oil . I decided to circulate the oil prior to starting , and disconnected the stop solenoid , to turn the motor over . What actually happened was the engine started within half a turn , and ran for about 5 seconds while my brain caught up and switched it off again . Long story short , i have no problems with oil pressure , and absolutely perfect starting .