Technical FIAT DUCATO 2.8 (2000) MOTORHOME GEARBOX ISSUE

[Mrbxx]

Hi,

Fiat Ducato Motorhome 2.8

My Fiat Ducato motorhome is crunching in 1st and 3rd gear, i have the box removed but am struggling to locate any numbers on the box. I have been told its either ML5T or MG5T but not 100%. I am planning on ordering a set of synchro rings and overhauling the box. I know that parts are getting hard to come by now.

Would anyone know if any box's from other models fit my motorhome, i have found a 20LE21 from a 1.9 boxer which looks identical but don't want to part with any cash until confirmed. Appreciate any help

 

[bugsymike]

Hi,

Fiat Ducato Motorhome 2.8

My Fiat Ducato motorhome is crunching in 1st and 3rd gear, i have the box removed but am struggling to locate any numbers on the box. I have been told its either ML5T or MG5T but not 100%. I am planning on ordering a set of synchro rings and overhauling the box. I know that parts are getting hard to come by now.

Would anyone know if any box's from other models fit my motorhome, i have found a 20LE21 from a 1.9 boxer which looks identical but don't want to part with any cash until confirmed. Appreciate any help

I wouldn't have thought that 1.9 box would be any good if yours is a 2.8.
Try looking on wikipedia to see which other vans are badge engineered Fiats, just put in Fiat Ducato and look for the wikipedia listing for it, possibly Citroen Relay and Peugeot Boxer, some years ago I did a clutch job on a Citroen Relay 2.8 I think it was an 05 plate which would make it one of the last.

 

[Mrbxx]

I wouldn't have thought that 1.9 box would be any good if yours is a 2.8.
Try looking on wikipedia to see which other vans are badge engineered Fiats, just put in Fiat Ducato and look for the wikipedia listing for it, possibly Citroen Relay and Peugeot Boxer, some years ago I did a clutch job on a Citroen Relay 2.8 I think it was an 05 plate which would make it one of the last.

I thought it would be a long shot but honestly ready to try anything, my local transmission specialist cant get any parts for my ML5T gearbox and i can not find a replacement anywhere

I have had a look on Wikipedia (thanks for that) looks like its based on Peugeot boxer, i have taken to the forums for inspiration and will keep looking for spares. Need it sorted ready for the season!

 

[airwave]

Hi,

Fiat Ducato Motorhome 2.8

My Fiat Ducato motorhome is crunching in 1st and 3rd gear, i have the box removed but am struggling to locate any numbers on the box. I have been told its either ML5T or MG5T but not 100%. I am planning on ordering a set of synchro rings and overhauling the box. I know that parts are getting hard to come by now.

Would anyone know if any box's from other models fit my motorhome, i have found a 20LE21 from a 1.9 boxer which looks identical but don't want to part with any cash until confirmed. Appreciate any help

Yes your quite correct , there were two gearboxes fitted to the 2.8 . The MG5TU , which i believe is the earlier version , and the ME5TU , which also found it's way into the later JTD .
I can only advise on identifying the MG5 , as i also have that gearbox , and maybe the easiest way , is pattern layout . Reverse is right and down , where left and up , is the later ME5 .
Further identification will require a look under the bonnet , but i see in your case , the gearbox has been removed , so first check the clutch lever . The MG5 is a pull movement , in your case away from the bell housing , and the ME5 is a push . Lastly , standing at the front of the engine with the bell housing to your left , look at the right hand side of the gearbox . Is there a smaller casting sticking out further to the right , than the bulk of the box , probably with a black cover , but not necessarily so . That is an MG5 .

Try Coastal motorhomes , based somewhere on the southcoast . i think around Ringwood , Bournemouth area , for parts . Failing that Brownhills , in Newark . Both are helpful , but if you have an import (left hand drive) , you will need the vin number .

Thirdly , though it's possible the gearbox casing may fit , i seriously doubt the gearbox ratios will be the same on a 1.9 . I wouldn't want to call it .

 

[bugsymike]

Yes your quite correct , there were two gearboxes fitted to the 2.8 . The MG5TU , which i believe is the earlier version , and the ME5TU , which also found it's way into the later JTD .
I can only advise on identifying the MG5 , as i also have that gearbox , and maybe the easiest way , is pattern layout . Reverse is right and down , where left and up , is the later ME5 .
Further identification will require a look under the bonnet , but i see in your case , the gearbox has been removed , so first check the clutch lever . The MG5 is a pull movement , in your case away from the bell housing , and the ME5 is a push . Lastly , standing at the front of the engine with the bell housing to your left , look at the right hand side of the gearbox . Is there a smaller casting sticking out further to the right , than the bulk of the box , probably with a black cover , but not necessarily so . That is an MG5 .

Try Coastal motorhomes , based somewhere on the southcoast . i think around Ringwood , Bournemouth area , for parts . Failing that Brownhills , in Newark . Both are helpful , but if you have an import (left hand drive) , you will need the vin number .

Thirdly , though it's possible the gearbox casing may fit , i seriously doubt the gearbox ratios will be the same on a 1.9 . I wouldn't want to call it .

That sounds excellent advise/help.
My only thought is that having worked on both engines in the past, the 2.8 is a much larger commercial lump compared with the 1.9 which was more car derived, so I would be very surprised if a 1.9 gearbox would marry to a 2.8 engine apart from ratio issues, it should be possible to look at photos of the flywheel end of both engine types on eBay to confirm though.

 

[Mrbxx]

Yes your quite correct , there were two gearboxes fitted to the 2.8 . The MG5TU , which i believe is the earlier version , and the ME5TU , which also found it's way into the later JTD .
I can only advise on identifying the MG5 , as i also have that gearbox , and maybe the easiest way , is pattern layout . Reverse is right and down , where left and up , is the later ME5 .
Further identification will require a look under the bonnet , but i see in your case , the gearbox has been removed , so first check the clutch lever . The MG5 is a pull movement , in your case away from the bell housing , and the ME5 is a push . Lastly , standing at the front of the engine with the bell housing to your left , look at the right hand side of the gearbox . Is there a smaller casting sticking out further to the right , than the bulk of the box , probably with a black cover , but not necessarily so . That is an MG5 .

Try Coastal motorhomes , based somewhere on the southcoast . i think around Ringwood , Bournemouth area , for parts . Failing that Brownhills , in Newark . Both are helpful , but if you have an import (left hand drive) , you will need the vin number .

Thirdly , though it's possible the gearbox casing may fit , i seriously doubt the gearbox ratios will be the same on a 1.9 . I wouldn't want to call it .

Thank you for taking your time to assist, my reverse is down and right on my gear box yes and the clutch arm is operated by pulling down towards the floor. I have attached some images. This is now conflicting with what most transmission specialists have told me, I was told that my box is a ML5T due to the differential unbolting.

I would much rather purchase another identical gearbox or have the failed parts in mine repaired, also have been told its just the synchromesh that need doing (1st & 3rd), 5th gear synchromesh has already been and i have no issues with 5th. It is a UK registered motorhome, just an antique one! Will upgrade in the near future as this is my first MH

I'll contact both them right now and check, thanks for your help. Fingers crossed

 

[Mrbxx]

Yes your quite correct , there were two gearboxes fitted to the 2.8 . The MG5TU , which i believe is the earlier version , and the ME5TU , which also found it's way into the later JTD .
I can only advise on identifying the MG5 , as i also have that gearbox , and maybe the easiest way , is pattern layout . Reverse is right and down , where left and up , is the later ME5 .
Further identification will require a look under the bonnet , but i see in your case , the gearbox has been removed , so first check the clutch lever . The MG5 is a pull movement , in your case away from the bell housing , and the ME5 is a push . Lastly , standing at the front of the engine with the bell housing to your left , look at the right hand side of the gearbox . Is there a smaller casting sticking out further to the right , than the bulk of the box , probably with a black cover , but not necessarily so . That is an MG5 .

Try Coastal motorhomes , based somewhere on the southcoast . i think around Ringwood , Bournemouth area , for parts . Failing that Brownhills , in Newark . Both are helpful , but if you have an import (left hand drive) , you will need the vin number .

Thirdly , though it's possible the gearbox casing may fit , i seriously doubt the gearbox ratios will be the same on a 1.9 . I wouldn't want to call it .

Thank you for taking your time to assist, my reverse is down and right on my gear box yes and the clutch arm in operated by pulling down towards the floor. I have attached some images. This is now conflicting with what most transmission spesisists have told me

 

[Mrbxx]

Hi, Just had the below back from a reputable supplier, might be some useful info for the forum.

"I have checked your details and our software shows you have an ML5 gearbox fitted not an MG5. The confusion might be because you have a 2.8 engine, most 2.8 engines use the MG5 and people do tend to assume 2.8 always means an MG5 but it doesn`t. The type of gearbox fitted is decided by the carrying weight of the vehicle, not the engine size."

I have also sent pictures to this supplier and they confirm their statement is 100% definite. Time to order some parts and prey!

 

[Mrbxx]

Thank you for taking your time to assist, my reverse is down and right on my gear box yes and the clutch arm in operated by pulling down towards the floor. I have attached some images. This is now conflicting with what most transmission spesisists have told me

Transmission Specialists*

 

[airwave]

My only thought is that having worked on both engines in the past, the 2.8 is a much larger commercial lump compared with the 1.9 which was more car derived,

Absolutely , Mike , and this is the major question . I come from an era , where anything goes . If a gearbox doesn't match , then "ah hell" , just change the bell housing . I've seen and heard of some weird combinations , with the likes of an American small block V8's , matched to a Transit gearbox . Series 1 , and 2 Transit's having V8 transplants , with Jaguar gearboxes , sometimes Rover , sometimes Jaguar back axles . At least two Rover Mini's having Rover V8's lumped in , but i've also heard of kit cars where basically first and second gear were useless , as they're too low geared . I'm talking of the custom car scene back in the 60's , and 70's . Some really wild times that are no longer so , legislation killed it when we joined the EU .
Those skills have died out , and before anyone asks , i never had them in the first place , but the fact is , matching gearboxes to engines , is far more complicated than just bolting the thing on . Incorrect gearing can have a devastating impact on a vehicle's performance , and that's before you even start looking at the specification of the gearbox itself . As you quite rightly have mentioned , they are two different units . Bearing's , layshafts , even the synchromesh , the very thing Mrbxx , is trying to overcome , may be weaker .
Personally speaking , i also doubt it will too , i don't think the bell housing are removable on modern engine's , but i also think it more likely the gearing will also be different . After all the vehicles are different sizes and of course weight , however as i've said i'm not an expert .

I have attached some images.

Hello , @Mrbxx , okay now this is really interesting . Yes i can confirm , that is not an MG5TU gearbox , though it is very similar . It has the same 5th gear castings , but the clutch arrangement appears to be more defined on the forward side of the box , compared to mine which is more on the top , making it totally different . I can't really fully compare it to a ME5TU , because i've never actually seen one in the flesh , so to speak . But the best i can say is the clutch lever is more in line with the MG , despite being a different shape , it's roughly in the same place as the MG . It also appears to have a dip stick , on the forward side of the box .
Now before i go any further , can i just ask you to confirm the Vehicle make , engine size , weight , and vehicle configuration , ie pop up , a class , c class or though unlikely at this age , b class . Vehicle make is important , Fiat , Peugeot , or Citroen , and perhaps more importantly , you call the gearbox ML5 , there should be at least one more letter after that , maybe 2 , do you have them ?

 

[airwave]

I was told that my box is a ML5T due to the differential unbolting.

Sorry i missed that , but that was the information i was trying to gain ,

Take a look at this ;

Peugeot Boxer 5 Speed Fully Reconditioned Gearbox 2.5 ML5T | eBay

THIS IS A ML5T Gearbox Type. The unit has been reconditioned by APF GEARS in southport and has not done a mile since it rebuild.

www.ebay.co.uk

Maybe worth a punt , and certainly to your advantage .

 

[Mrbxx]

Sorry i missed that , but that was the information i was trying to gain ,

Take a look at this ;

Peugeot Boxer 5 Speed Fully Reconditioned Gearbox 2.5 ML5T | eBay

THIS IS A ML5T Gearbox Type. The unit has been reconditioned by APF GEARS in southport and has not done a mile since it rebuild.

www.ebay.co.uk

Maybe worth a punt , and certainly to your advantage .

See this looks very similar to mine however the clutch folk does not come come in from the top of the box on mine. Apparently I have the rarest box known to man, all being said now that I have it apart the intervals don't look to bad in my unprofessional opinion. I was expecting to find 1st and 3rd gears completely shot but turns out 5th looks in worse condition than any others. And I am having no issues with 5th!

Why they didn't just put markings on the gearbox's rather than all the guess work I'll never know.

 

[bugsymike]

Absolutely , Mike , and this is the major question . I come from an era , where anything goes . If a gearbox doesn't match , then "ah hell" , just change the bell housing . I've seen and heard of some weird combinations , with the likes of an American small block V8's , matched to a Transit gearbox . Series 1 , and 2 Transit's having V8 transplants , with Jaguar gearboxes , sometimes Rover , sometimes Jaguar back axles . At least two Rover Mini's having Rover V8's lumped in , but i've also heard of kit cars where basically first and second gear were useless , as they're too low geared . I'm talking of the custom car scene back in the 60's , and 70's . Some really wild times that are no longer so , legislation killed it when we joined the EU .
Those skills have died out , and before anyone asks , i never had them in the first place , but the fact is , matching gearboxes to engines , is far more complicated than just bolting the thing on . Incorrect gearing can have a devastating impact on a vehicle's performance , and that's before you even start looking at the specification of the gearbox itself . As you quite rightly have mentioned , they are two different units . Bearing's , layshafts , even the synchromesh , the very thing Mrbxx , is trying to overcome , may be weaker .
Personally speaking , i also doubt it will too , i don't think the bell housing are removable on modern engine's , but i also think it more likely the gearing will also be different . After all the vehicles are different sizes and of course weight , however as i've said i'm not an expert .



Hello , @Mrbxx , okay now this is really interesting . Yes i can confirm , that is not an MG5TU gearbox , though it is very similar . It has the same 5th gear castings , but the clutch arrangement appears to be more defined on the forward side of the box , compared to mine which is more on the top , making it totally different . I can't really fully compare it to a ME5TU , because i've never actually seen one in the flesh , so to speak . But the best i can say is the clutch lever is more in line with the MG , despite being a different shape , it's roughly in the same place as the MG . It also appears to have a dip stick , on the forward side of the box .
Now before i go any further , can i just ask you to confirm the Vehicle make , engine size , weight , and vehicle configuration , ie pop up , a class , c class or though unlikely at this age , b class . Vehicle make is important , Fiat , Peugeot , or Citroen , and perhaps more importantly , you call the gearbox ML5 , there should be at least one more letter after that , maybe 2 , do you have them ?

Yes airwave, late 60s early 70s great fun swapping and matching to suit, mostly smaller Fords for me as an apprentice a case of what you can afford, we had a petrol customer who ran a lime green Ford Anglia 105E with a Lotus Twin cam engine, sounded and went beautifully. Mine was just a 1500 with 5 1/2 J Dunlop steel wheels, lowered and negative camber on front suspension, kept me happy until I realised I could drive much faster with less attention in a Zephyr V6 on cross ply tyres, although driving like that gave 12mpg at 35pence per gallon. I had a job selling that car when fuel went to 65 pence per gallon, crazy when you see what we pay now.

 

[airwave]

Why they didn't just put markings on the gearbox's rather than all the guess work I'll never know.

Hmmm , now that's most intriguing , because this is the gearbox , you're been told you have .

Okay , so i'm guessing you have the gearbox at home . It will have some markings on it , BUT , they will be stamped on the outside , though it is possible there could be a plate . Either way , it's likely covered in muck , but to be brutally honest the rub is , it could quite literally be anywhere . In the case of the MG , and ME 5's , it's on the upper casing between the bell housing , and differential . More or less beside the forward most cable trap for the gearbox cables , not the clutch .
I would suggest looking there first .
The chances are , you will need to clean the casing first , and for that i would suggest hot water . And by that , i mean as hot as you can stand , mixed with some fairey liquid . The misses might object somewhat , but as an engine degreaser , it's a very acceptable alternative . I've had varying success with other brands , but i've probably got the lead on you , as i'm not married .You're also need a stiff brush , stiffest you can find , i'm afraid a paint brush won't fly , and possible a wire brush . Personally i would use an electric drill (but not with water for obvious reasons , huh) , and scrub the bugger . Do make sure any access to the internal components are blocked , you don't want any water , or dust to get inside .
Now the markings your looking for , should have all the important information , regarding the gearbox , including the type and serial number . It's possible i've located an early ML5 , and yours is a later version , however it's very rare for something like this to be changed in this manner using the same part number . It's far more likely a superseded number , and this maybe shown in your part number , or gearbox type . For example another number or letter after the last T , ie ML5T?
Now there is another reason , and something that was unique among European manufacturers . Instead of stopping the production line after running out of a certain part , as was the case in this country , they would fit something else . An example of this , is in the case of trim , it maybe a different colour . Citroen were famous for it years ago , where you could get a car , with say a brown dashboard , and matching brown switches . All except for one , which was say cream . I myself have had problems with my own duke , where components under the bonnet , are different to what the computer says is actually fitted , so i suspect Fiat also practiced this , and this could also be the case with your gearbox .

Ford Anglia 105E

Oh my god , not you as well . I never had the money for such things , though i was heavily interested in custom vans . I choose to learn to fly instead , though i never completed the training . So you must remember the custom car magazine , or even hot car huh . There were some fantastic cars around , and the vans , jeeze .
A friend of mine had a 105e , light blue . It had something special under the hood , i can't remember what , but he said the dam thing flew . Baffled him at first , swore blind it couldn't be the original engine , and he also told me , there was something unoriginal with the back axle as well . He later picked up a knackered Cobra , not the AC , but the small Mustang , that had something wrong with the engine . It was only a 2.2 , hah only . So he ripped that out and dropped a V8 in instead . That's how i knew about the tranny gearbox , he dropped one in because nothing else would fit . He had all kinds of problems , power steering , brakes , till finally he couldn't to get the bonnet closed .
I never did see it , he was much older than me , and i was only in my early twenties , but he had an accident in his truck . If i remember correctly , a car came round the corner on the wrong side of the road , and he lost control of the truck trying to avoid him , and died . Dunno how old he was , but he flew Dakota's in the last war , though he never spoke much about it . I caught him speaking french , and asked him , really interesting guy . Turned out he was involved in the Berlin airlift as well . He was really brilliant , you could always have a laugh with him . I remember he once asked me to push start his truck , with a fork lift . He had flat batteries . I didn't think it would work , but it did , man did we laugh about it afterwards , such a character .

Rest in peace , Richard .

 

[airwave]

See this looks very similar to mine however the clutch folk does not come come in from the top of the box on mine.

Now i'm gonna push this one forward . It does appear to be slightly different , however though it came up during a ML5T search , it does appear to have a different part number . It's also pretty much on target , both for make , year , and cubic capacity , plus the fork pivot is forward at the top by roughly 45 degrees . Just take a look

The link ; https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/28502535...OO4fQrNzhDUuzteioVNqgDjMTkhaMUpxoCLpcQAvD_BwE

 

[bugsymike]

Oh my god , not you as well . I never had the money for such things , though i was heavily interested in custom vans . I choose to learn to fly instead , though i never completed the training . So you must remember the custom car magazine , or even hot car huh . There were some fantastic cars around , and the vans , jeeze .
A friend of mine had a 105e , light blue . It had something special under the hood , i can't remember what , but he said the dam thing flew . Baffled him at first , swore blind it couldn't be the original engine , and he also told me , there was something unoriginal with the back axle as well . He later picked up a knackered Cobra , not the AC , but the small Mustang , that had something wrong with the engine . It was only a 2.2 , hah only . So he ripped that out and dropped a V8 in instead . That's how i knew about the tranny gearbox , he dropped one in because nothing else would fit . He had all kinds of problems , power steering , brakes , till finally he couldn't to get the bonnet closed .
I never did see it , he was much older than me , and i was only in my early twenties , but he had an accident in his truck . If i remember correctly , a car came round the corner on the wrong side of the road , and he lost control of the truck trying to avoid him , and died . Dunno how old he was , but he flew Dakota's in the last war , though he never spoke much about it . I caught him speaking french , and asked him , really interesting guy . Turned out he was involved in the Berlin airlift as well . He was really brilliant , you could always have a laugh with him . I remember he once asked me to push start his truck , with a fork lift . He had flat batteries . I didn't think it would work , but it did , man did we laugh about it afterwards , such a character .

Rest in peace , Richard .

It's funny how people only see what they want to, not what interesting lives others may have lived when younger. I went to the funeral of an old ex boss I had known since 1975 and only at the funeral did I learn that he had been a tail gunner during WW2, raced cars all over the World, owned lots of property, but to look at him he was often mistaken for a caretaker. Another guy was our storeman and at the end of the war was involved with running the VW Beetle plant, left the army as a Major some years later I recall, when I knew him he was well past retirement, some cocky young car salesman started a play fight with him, next second the salesman was on the floor looking very stupid and the old guy had barely moved.
Yes most of the car mags,Classic Bike and Classic car,Hot car, Hot Rod (loved their flaming paint jobs and pearlescent effects, though I had no skill at painting, the first van I had I resprayed outside the garage and the mechanics all came out to look once the masking paper was off, they all started looking at the sky, then told me they were looking for the seagull that had sh*t all over my van ) I bought a Wolseley 1500 off a guy who spent a lot of time in a engine machine shop, the 1500 GoldSeal engine looked completely standard even down to the single SU carb and standard filter, but it just flew, leaving many standing, yet it ticked over at almost 400 Rpm smooth as you like, I must have broken at least four halfshafts, never had that problem with Fords, he never did tell me what had been done to the engine. In the end I scrapped it and a friend put the 1500 in place of his 1622 in an Austin Cambridge I think and he too said how well it went.
A past brother in law owned a professionally customised Mk 2 Ford Transit all trick paint and beds and carpets etc. apparently two ladies won it in a Coca Cola competition but decided it wasn't for them.

 

[airwave]

It's funny how people only see what they want to, not what interesting lives others may have lived when younger. I went to the funeral of an old ex boss I had known since 1975 and only at the funeral did I learn that he had been a tail gunner during WW2, raced cars all over the World, owned lots of property, but to look at him he was often mistaken for a caretaker. Another guy was our storeman and at the end of the war was involved with running the VW Beetle plant, left the army as a Major some years later I recall, when I knew him he was well past retirement, some cocky young car salesman started a play fight with him, next second the salesman was on the floor looking very stupid and the old guy had barely moved.
Yes most of the car mags,Classic Bike and Classic car,Hot car, Hot Rod (loved their flaming paint jobs and pearlescent effects, though I had no skill at painting, the first van I had I resprayed outside the garage and the mechanics all came out to look once the masking paper was off, they all started looking at the sky, then told me they were looking for the seagull that had sh*t all over my van ) I bought a Wolseley 1500 off a guy who spent a lot of time in a engine machine shop, the 1500 GoldSeal engine looked completely standard even down to the single SU carb and standard filter, but it just flew, leaving many standing, yet it ticked over at almost 400 Rpm smooth as you like, I must have broken at least four halfshafts, never had that problem with Fords, he never did tell me what had been done to the engine. In the end I scrapped it and a friend put the 1500 in place of his 1622 in an Austin Cambridge I think and he too said how well it went.
A past brother in law owned a professionally customised Mk 2 Ford Transit all trick paint and beds and carpets etc. apparently two ladies won it in a Coca Cola competition but decided it wasn't for them.

Yeah your spot on there , but to be honest neither my dad , who served with the para's , in the far east , or my Grand dad , who served with the RAF , as an aircraft armourer during the battle of Britain spoke of the war . In the case of my grand dad i only found out after his death back in the 70's , and basically that's all i know even today . I've since learned this is not uncommon for those that served during the war , and to be frank if i hadn't caught Richard speaking fluent french to another driver and not quizzed him on it , i would never have guessed . He was such a mild well spoken bloke , always up for a laugh . Though much older than me , seriously easy to get on with , and would never see you struggle , no matter what the task . I still remember his truck , an old Leyland Marathon sleeper . Bloody huge thing it was , not in the best of conditions , but generally reliable . It served him well , and Richard himself was never dressed like a boss , but he was always shaven , and well presented . He just never presented as to what he was , still i guess that is just the way it was .

I was never into custom bikes , despite being a biker myself , but the cars yes , and i loved the vans . None of them had standard motors , all V8 , normally the Rover , but some had small blocks Chevies , 4 and 5 litres worth . There was even one CF with gull wing doors . It was the innovation that caught me , frenching the lights , fitting electric windows , drinks cabinets , all manner of things . I loved the idea of not having any door handles , the electric door lock . Just press a button , and the door popped open . I know what your saying with paint , but i was more into the pin striping , than flames , though some of the pearlescent colours certainly drew the eye .
Yeah , it was Ford that caught most of the flak , most modified , though some Leyland were in the mix , Vauxhall too . I began to drive in an old mk1 Transit , when i was 16 . A company vehicle that had two gas tanks in the back . Never ran on the stuff though , you struggled to find a fill up . I never drove on the road , it was always rough ground . But i left that company after a year , and went to an airport , at the time a major commercial training school , and that's where the interest in flight training began . I helped put some new trainers that came in , together in one of the hangers , though i was meant to be in stores . My job entailed going round the different departments collecting store requisition forms , and delivering parts for forms i'd already collected , so i was able to disappear for short periods . The aviation took over , and eventually i began to fly the planes , i helped put together . Now is that worrying or what ? .

 

[bugsymike]

Yeah your spot on there , but to be honest neither my dad , who served with the para's , in the far east , or my Grand dad , who served with the RAF , as an aircraft armourer during the battle of Britain spoke of the war . In the case of my grand dad i only found out after his death back in the 70's , and basically that's all i know even today . I've since learned this is not uncommon for those that served during the war , and to be frank if i hadn't caught Richard speaking fluent french to another driver and not quizzed him on it , i would never have guessed . He was such a mild well spoken bloke , always up for a laugh . Though much older than me , seriously easy to get on with , and would never see you struggle , no matter what the task . I still remember his truck , an old Leyland Marathon sleeper . Bloody huge thing it was , not in the best of conditions , but generally reliable . It served him well , and Richard himself was never dressed like a boss , but he was always shaven , and well presented . He just never presented as to what he was , still i guess that is just the way it was .

I was never into custom bikes , despite being a biker myself , but the cars yes , and i loved the vans . None of them had standard motors , all V8 , normally the Rover , but some had small blocks Chevies , 4 and 5 litres worth . There was even one CF with gull wing doors . It was the innovation that caught me , frenching the lights , fitting electric windows , drinks cabinets , all manner of things . I loved the idea of not having any door handles , the electric door lock . Just press a button , and the door popped open . I know what your saying with paint , but i was more into the pin striping , than flames , though some of the pearlescent colours certainly drew the eye .
Yeah , it was Ford that caught most of the flak , most modified , though some Leyland were in the mix , Vauxhall too . I began to drive in an old mk1 Transit , when i was 16 . A company vehicle that had two gas tanks in the back . Never ran on the stuff though , you struggled to find a fill up . I never drove on the road , it was always rough ground . But i left that company after a year , and went to an airport , at the time a major commercial training school , and that's where the interest in flight training began . I helped put some new trainers that came in , together in one of the hangers , though i was meant to be in stores . My job entailed going round the different departments collecting store requisition forms , and delivering parts for forms i'd already collected , so i was able to disappear for short periods . The aviation took over , and eventually i began to fly the planes , i helped put together . Now is that worrying or what ? .

My dad died when I was eight, but he was involved with DMWD in WW2 on a smoke laying rocket called the Swallow, it was one of Barnes Wallis's projects I believe, but Commander Norway (Nevil Shute) saw to the day to day running, it never went into service as the war had moved on, but they did lots of work on it, driving down from London to Bucklers Hard Beaulieu for testing from a tank landing craft in the Solent.
I had several transit vans and crewcabs etc including a Mk1 and a Bedford CF that both had the same Perkins 4.108 diesel ( I did meet the guy who designed that for Perkins he was retired and living in Topsham at the time), 65 mph! The advantage being 38 mpg, so not quite in the V8 class. Later I moved on to Iveco Daily vans, crewcabs and pickups which suffered slightly less from rust having a good strong chassis. Apart from rebuilding a Triumph Stag engine and the odd 3.5 Rovers I didn't have much to do with proper big V8s.
A friend had a Dodge Police car, not a replica, very high mileage and rough as a dogs behind, but the grunt that thing had was amazing.
I did fancy the idea of flying a Spitfire, but my reaction times and common sense stopped that . I have a friend that flies light aircraft and occasionally brushes up other pilots helicopter skills, but apart from cheap package holidays in the late 70s financial commitments, (children and ex wives) have been a reality check flying wise.
Flying planes you had helped put together? Probably less worrying than one someone else assembled.

 

[airwave]

My dad died when I was eight, but he was involved with DMWD in WW2 on a smoke laying rocket called the Swallow, it was one of Barnes Wallis's projects I believe, but Commander Norway (Nevil Shute) saw to the day to day running, it never went into service as the war had moved on, but they did lots of work on it, driving down from London to Bucklers Hard Beaulieu for testing from a tank landing craft in the Solent.
I had several transit vans and crewcabs etc including a Mk1 and a Bedford CF that both had the same Perkins 4.108 diesel ( I did meet the guy who designed that for Perkins he was retired and living in Topsham at the time), 65 mph! The advantage being 38 mpg, so not quite in the V8 class. Later I moved on to Iveco Daily vans, crewcabs and pickups which suffered slightly less from rust having a good strong chassis. Apart from rebuilding a Triumph Stag engine and the odd 3.5 Rovers I didn't have much to do with proper big V8s.
A friend had a Dodge Police car, not a replica, very high mileage and rough as a dogs behind, but the grunt that thing had was amazing.
I did fancy the idea of flying a Spitfire, but my reaction times and common sense stopped that . I have a friend that flies light aircraft and occasionally brushes up other pilots helicopter skills, but apart from cheap package holidays in the late 70s financial commitments, (children and ex wives) have been a reality check flying wise.
Flying planes you had helped put together? Probably less worrying than one someone else assembled.

A Stag , jeeze , i fancied a Stag . Gorgeous looking car , but i was always frightened it would get nicked . That was a 3 litre V8 if i remember correctly , but the engine has some longevity issues . Most i heard had been transplanted with a Rover unit . I almost brought one to replace the Fiesta i had at the time , but insurance was an issue . The Fiesta was only the second car i owned , and i spent a bloody fortune on it . It was the 3nd most expensive car that i've ever brought . A 1.3 ghia , silver , only 3/4 years old . The insurance was much cheaper than i thought considering the performance , and a fraction of the Stag . Fun to drive , but over powered , spent all it's time wheel spinning . Would go over the ton though , the most i had outta it was 110 , but that engine was making some really funny noises , it would do 105 happily though . Hopeless on fuel , i think only the high twenties . Course that could have been down to the way i drove it . I later had a mk 1 Granada 2 litre L estate , almost as big in the back as a tranny . Really comfortable , and though hopeless around town , on the open road it would walk all over the Fiesta for economy .
American police cars got the nickname "police special" . I've never been able to get it confirmed , but i believe they are souped up from birth . They are powerful , but then it's no good chasing a Jag in a Metro is it .
I gotta rude awakening quite early , when a work mate of mine brought a Pontiac Firebird . Blue , T top , full 6.6 litre , lovely looking car , but is was nicked something like 6 months after he got it , never to be seen again . He reckoned it was probably broken for spares , and that kinda affected the type of cars i brought , even now . I had become a trucker by then , so the car spent a lot of time sat in the yard , wrong car would have been easy meat . So i've always kept cheap old bangers . I did toy with getting a 4 wheel drive at one time , loved the early Range Rovers , but again insurance was an issue , that and the 18mpg . So i looked at the first Fiat Panda with it's little 1000cc fire engine . Only a little engine , but it's weight enabled it to almost match the Range Rover off road performance . I was looking for a new one to replace the Fiesta , but the salesman didn't really seem interested in selling one . In fact i seemed to know more about it than he did .
It was about that time Suzuki released the SJ410 , and i looked at that , until i discovered the release of the 413 was imminent , so decided to wait for one of them . Same engine size of my Fiesta , but the release was delayed when it failed the roll over test , i got cold feet and in the end brought a boat . I pretty much stopped looking at cars after that . Didn't return till the late nineties , when i brought a basket case 500cc motorcycle , and that is where i began to get really serious with spanners . Got 4 motors now , a 28 year Citroen diesel , that returns 72 mpg . A 16 year old Suzuki carry , and a 23 year Hymer motorhome , 2.8 idtd . Also got a little Skyteam Dax 125cc , now that is seriously good fun to ride . 110 mile to the gallon , basically a copy of a 70's Honda . Officially it goes on the back of the motorhome , but in reality ? . I sold my other bikes , 4 of them including the original basket case , that i returned to the road .
As for my flying , well i did finally gain my pilot ticket , jeeze i guess nearly 20 years ago now , on Hang gliders . I'm also rated power , so i can officially chuck myself off a cliff , or fly from a flat field . I sold my boat a couple of years ago , after buying the motorhome . Long story , short , i became involved with the hang gliding school where i trained , and began to spend long periods on site during the summer . The school is based in Spain , by a couple of ex-pats , but they returned here during the summer , to train in Norfolk . It kicked off with me camping , but i wanted a bit more comfort , and a reliable van to get over there , and maybe down to Spain as well . I've spent thousands on the duke overhauling , restoring , and updating it ready to get there , but then one of the partners had a stroke and died , just before Covid kicked off a couple of years ago , and right now the school is not really functioning . So with current events notwithstanding , and my own retirement close on the horizon , i've been giving serious thought to replacing the boat , maybe as soon as this year , and retiring completely . I just dunno yet .
I did live on my old boat for a couple of years , after being made redundant from where i worked . Frankly i loved it , but realistically at 25 ft it was too small . Fine for my age at the time , but now i'm older , i need a bit more headroom , so i'm looking for something about 5ft longer . I would have almost total control of pretty much everything , plus be able to move at will , to wherever I wanted . Being brutal , the futures not looking rosy here and i'm becoming increasingly uneasy with the direction this country is headed , especially from a pensioner perspective .

So , DWMD , gotta be honest , i've never heard of it . But Commander , Bucklers hard , LST's , hmmm does sound Navy to me , i'm gonna have to google that . I believe smoke was classed as something to do with weapons , but nah , i'm gonna have to look it up .
Never did fancy flying a Spit , would take a ride in one though . I love the thing , but they're too valuable to let me loose in one . In the main i've flown Pipers , Cessna's , and briefly a Fuji . Being up in a Bell 222 , and Westland Scout . Also messed around with a couple of microlights . I've got about 13-14 hours as p.u.t (pilot under training) , and about 25 P1 (pilot in command) on the Doodlebug , powered hang glider . God knows how much i've got as a hang glider pilot . Must be many hundreds of launches , some long , some just up and down . To be honest , i've never recorded them all , due to the school environment , so much to do , so little time to do it . Even got a little flight time on model aircraft , but i think it's safe to say that amounts to more crashes than actual landings .

 

[bugsymike]

A Stag , jeeze , i fancied a Stag . Gorgeous looking car , but i was always frightened it would get nicked . That was a 3 litre V8 if i remember correctly , but the engine has some longevity issues . Most i heard had been transplanted with a Rover unit . I almost brought one to replace the Fiesta i had at the time , but insurance was an issue . The Fiesta was only the second car i owned , and i spent a bloody fortune on it . It was the 3nd most expensive car that i've ever brought . A 1.3 ghia , silver , only 3/4 years old . The insurance was much cheaper than i thought considering the performance , and a fraction of the Stag . Fun to drive , but over powered , spent all it's time wheel spinning . Would go over the ton though , the most i had outta it was 110 , but that engine was making some really funny noises , it would do 105 happily though . Hopeless on fuel , i think only the high twenties . Course that could have been down to the way i drove it . I later had a mk 1 Granada 2 litre L estate , almost as big in the back as a tranny . Really comfortable , and though hopeless around town , on the open road it would walk all over the Fiesta for economy .
American police cars got the nickname "police special" . I've never been able to get it confirmed , but i believe they are souped up from birth . They are powerful , but then it's no good chasing a Jag in a Metro is it .
I gotta rude awakening quite early , when a work mate of mine brought a Pontiac Firebird . Blue , T top , full 6.6 litre , lovely looking car , but is was nicked something like 6 months after he got it , never to be seen again . He reckoned it was probably broken for spares , and that kinda affected the type of cars i brought , even now . I had become a trucker by then , so the car spent a lot of time sat in the yard , wrong car would have been easy meat . So i've always kept cheap old bangers . I did toy with getting a 4 wheel drive at one time , loved the early Range Rovers , but again insurance was an issue , that and the 18mpg . So i looked at the first Fiat Panda with it's little 1000cc fire engine . Only a little engine , but it's weight enabled it to almost match the Range Rover off road performance . I was looking for a new one to replace the Fiesta , but the salesman didn't really seem interested in selling one . In fact i seemed to know more about it than he did .
It was about that time Suzuki released the SJ410 , and i looked at that , until i discovered the release of the 413 was imminent , so decided to wait for one of them . Same engine size of my Fiesta , but the release was delayed when it failed the roll over test , i got cold feet and in the end brought a boat . I pretty much stopped looking at cars after that . Didn't return till the late nineties , when i brought a basket case 500cc motorcycle , and that is where i began to get really serious with spanners . Got 4 motors now , a 28 year Citroen diesel , that returns 72 mpg . A 16 year old Suzuki carry , and a 23 year Hymer motorhome , 2.8 idtd . Also got a little Skyteam Dax 125cc , now that is seriously good fun to ride . 110 mile to the gallon , basically a copy of a 70's Honda . Officially it goes on the back of the motorhome , but in reality ? . I sold my other bikes , 4 of them including the original basket case , that i returned to the road .
As for my flying , well i did finally gain my pilot ticket , jeeze i guess nearly 20 years ago now , on Hang gliders . I'm also rated power , so i can officially chuck myself off a cliff , or fly from a flat field . I sold my boat a couple of years ago , after buying the motorhome . Long story , short , i became involved with the hang gliding school where i trained , and began to spend long periods on site during the summer . The school is based in Spain , by a couple of ex-pats , but they returned here during the summer , to train in Norfolk . It kicked off with me camping , but i wanted a bit more comfort , and a reliable van to get over there , and maybe down to Spain as well . I've spent thousands on the duke overhauling , restoring , and updating it ready to get there , but then one of the partners had a stroke and died , just before Covid kicked off a couple of years ago , and right now the school is not really functioning . So with current events notwithstanding , and my own retirement close on the horizon , i've been giving serious thought to replacing the boat , maybe as soon as this year , and retiring completely . I just dunno yet .
I did live on my old boat for a couple of years , after being made redundant from where i worked . Frankly i loved it , but realistically at 25 ft it was too small . Fine for my age at the time , but now i'm older , i need a bit more headroom , so i'm looking for something about 5ft longer . I would have almost total control of pretty much everything , plus be able to move at will , to wherever I wanted . Being brutal , the futures not looking rosy here and i'm becoming increasingly uneasy with the direction this country is headed , especially from a pensioner perspective .

So , DWMD , gotta be honest , i've never heard of it . But Commander , Bucklers hard , LST's , hmmm does sound Navy to me , i'm gonna have to google that . I believe smoke was classed as something to do with weapons , but nah , i'm gonna have to look it up .
Never did fancy flying a Spit , would take a ride in one though . I love the thing , but they're too valuable to let me loose in one . In the main i've flown Pipers , Cessna's , and briefly a Fuji . Being up in a Bell 222 , and Westland Scout . Also messed around with a couple of microlights . I've got about 13-14 hours as p.u.t (pilot under training) , and about 25 P1 (pilot in command) on the Doodlebug , powered hang glider . God knows how much i've got as a hang glider pilot . Must be many hundreds of launches , some long , some just up and down . To be honest , i've never recorded them all , due to the school environment , so much to do , so little time to do it . Even got a little flight time on model aircraft , but i think it's safe to say that amounts to more crashes than actual landings .

Sounds like you have had some fun.
The Stag was the original 3 litre with chain drive cams and shims for the valve clearances, I recall measuring them all up after rebuilding the engine, then going over to the Triumph Dealers with a micrometer and ferreting through all their spare shims. The hardest part was getting the heads off in the first place as they corroded to the studs, did that part with engine in place, sounds brutal but had to knock wedges into the gasket area to prize the head up enough to them use a pair of molegrips holding a broken hacksaw blade to saw off the old studs to allow head removal. I believe it took several tonnes on a hydraulic press to get the studs out of the heads to skim them, but it all went together well in the end. As you say gorgeous looking car with the roll bar built in etc. I just thought it was a shame when people just put in an old Rover auto in place of original in so many.
I had a Mk 2 Granada 2 litre Estate (Pinto engine) I put a 1800 Sherpa engine and gearbox in it, don't ask why. It would have been fine as it was a rebuilt engine but for the fact the machine shop who fitted dry liners neglected to skim the block, it resembled a rain gutter and blew the head gasket very quickly.
I used used to be in a rowing club (cheap beer) when hang gliders first started to become popular and a couple of people there took it up, next thing one was all in plaster for months, so it didn't appeal to me.
I suspect the "smoke" was really gas in the Swallow project, my dad died at 48 so it may not have done him any good.
My last boat was only 21ft, but a good strong Dannish build Botved Boats Coronet of around 1970 .