Technical Fiat Ducato 1995 2.4 diesel motorhome

[mancalledhorse]

Hi all,
I would like to ask if anyone could help with a problem with my motorhome,
My fiat Ducato starts but when cold its a problem starting. My mate had a look and checked the glow plug from battery to see f that was working and it was but when he checked the glow plug fuse holder, inside the cab for a voltage there wasnt any voltage, so he said the voltage isnt getting to the glow plug but didnt know why. Would anyone have an idea why this voltage isnt there on the fuse holder rail?
Thank you,
Kind regards,
Karl

 

[Communicator]

Hi Karl,
Please reconfirm engine size as I am not aware of a 2.4 litre Fiat engine in Ducato. Is engine straight diesel or turbo diesel? These were options, but only shown as 2500cc. May be important to know which engine, as different diagrams apply for direct, and indirect injection.

With older vehicles there is no fuse for the glowplugs themselves which are connected via a glow plug controller, also there does not seem to be any fuse for the controller. Perhaps the diagram is wrong, which is nothing new, but please check icon of fuse that you are looking at, and number. Someone should be able to help.

 

[mancalledhorse]

Hi Karl,
Please reconfirm engine size as I am not aware of a 2.4 litre Fiat engine in Ducato. Is engine straight diesel or turbo diesel? These were options, but only shown as 2500cc. May be important to know which engine, as different diagrams apply for direct, and indirect injection.

With older vehicles there is no fuse for the glowplugs themselves which are connected via a glow plug controller, also there does not seem to be any fuse for the controller. Perhaps the diagram is wrong, which is nothing new, but please check icon of fuse that you are looking at, and number. Someone should be able to help.

Hi Communicator, thank you for your help once again! Sorry its a 2.5 litre diesel engine, I know it has a mechanical fuel injection pump positioned lower down infront of the injectors. I always assumed it was a turbo but Im not sure now as it doesent say this in the log book. The chasis number on log book is 5142264. On the engine plate it says ABE G687, ZFA230000*05142264, MOTOR 8140.47, Version 230BEMBB.
Ive attached some photo's showing the glow plug, and the motor version/chasis plate and the fuse box inside the cab.

Thanks,
Kind regards,
Karl

 

[Communicator]

Hi Karl,
Your engine Sofim 8148.47 has turbo, and intercooler. It does not have glowplugs, instead it uses a flame starter. If you look at your photos, the solenoid valve for te diesel supply and single glowplug mounted on /into the air intake are visible. The sequence is probably under the contol of a special relay (controller). If faulty it may be difficult to source. For more details see links.Sofim engines (scroll down) and Flame Starter on Motor Roam website, again scroll down. Injection advance device may also apply.

I am trying to get some of my own work done, but where does that leave us?

 

[bugsymike]

Can you clarify what happens when trying to "cold start" also how cold?
Are you getting white smoke smelling of diesel on trying to start?
Is the battery/leads/starter etc. in good order, does the engine spin over as quick as it should, any of these can affect starting diesels.
I had a 1997 version of that engine in a boat and even in mid Winter with ice around the gunnels it always started almost as soon as key touched and I didn't even have need to wire in the flame start device as you may see from the loose white wire never connected.

 

[Communicator]

Hi Karl,
Your engine Sofim 8148.47 has turbo, and intercooler. It does not have glowplugs, instead it uses a flame starter. If you look at your photos, the solenoid valve for te diesel supply and single glowplug mounted on /into the air intake are visible. The sequence is probably under the contol of a special relay (controller). If faulty it may be difficult to source. For more details see links.Sofim engines (scroll down) and Flame Starter on Motor Roam website, again scroll down. Injection advance device may also apply.

I am trying to get some of my own work done, but where does that leave us?

Error.
I have just noticed a typographical error in the above post. In first line for Sofim 8148.47, please read Sofim 8140.47. Apologies for any confusion.

 

[mancalledhorse]

Hi Karl,
Your engine Sofim 8148.47 has turbo, and intercooler. It does not have glowplugs, instead it uses a flame starter. If you look at your photos, the solenoid valve for te diesel supply and single glowplug mounted on /into the air intake are visible. The sequence is probably under the contol of a special relay (controller). If faulty it may be difficult to source. For more details see links.Sofim engines (scroll down) and Flame Starter on Motor Roam website, again scroll down. Injection advance device may also apply.

I am trying to get some of my own work done, but where does that leave us?

Hi Communicator, my appologies for not replying sooner, have women problems!! Just what I dont need!
Thank you so much for your help explaining that its a flame start, not a glow plug, and sending the links as well, I cant open the Sofim engines link but the Flame Starter link I can. The flame starter link is brialliant as I think it has solved the problem because awhile back I had taken off that wax stat off (electrical side) to test if the pin inside the wax stat was moving when a voltage was applied and contracting when the voltage was disconnected. it was working but it moved that quick, the pin flew out of the wax stat with a spring, I found the pin but couldnt find the spring so I just left the wax stat off completely. So Im not sure now if I have to order a new electrical wax stat or if can get a small spring and try it in the old wax stat?
Would you recommend just buying a new one?
Thank you once again fro your great help! Looks like ive created my own troubles again!!
Kind regards,
Karl

 

[mancalledhorse]

Can you clarify what happens when trying to "cold start" also how cold?
Are you getting white smoke smelling of diesel on trying to start?
Is the battery/leads/starter etc. in good order, does the engine spin over as quick as it should, any of these can affect starting diesels.
I had a 1997 version of that engine in a boat and even in mid Winter with ice around the gunnels it always started almost as soon as key touched and I didn't even have need to wire in the flame start device as you may see from the loose white wire never connected.

Hi Mike, Thank you so much for your reply and the photo's and I appologies getting back to you late! big troubles with me woman, basically she has gone back with her ex!
Thats interesting that it always started without the need for a flame starter.
Ive changed the battery connector terminals for the quicker lever kind. When it starts theres alot of black smoke. I have just looked at the flame starter diagrams link that Communicator has sent me and it shows that its connected to the wax stat, which I have taken off!! ( electrical side) and I left it off, I didnt realise this was to do with the flame starter!! I tested it to see if the pin was moving in and out but then the pin flew off with the spring. I dod find it but not the spring. Maybe I could just get another small spring and put that in or do you think I should buy a new electrical wax stat?
The weather was about zero deg's/ minus 1 when it wouldnt start.

Thank you for your graeat help as always Mike, I really appreciate it!

Are you getting the your boat ready for the summer!

Kind regards,
Karl

 

[bugsymike]

Hi Mike, Thank you so much for your reply and the photo's and I appologies getting back to you late! big troubles with me woman, basically she has gone back with her ex!
Thats interesting that it always started without the need for a flame starter.
Ive changed the battery connector terminals for the quicker lever kind. When it starts theres alot of black smoke. I have just looked at the flame starter diagrams link that Communicator has sent me and it shows that its connected to the wax stat, which I have taken off!! ( electrical side) and I left it off, I didnt realise this was to do with the flame starter!! I tested it to see if the pin was moving in and out but then the pin flew off with the spring. I dod find it but not the spring. Maybe I could just get another small spring and put that in or do you think I should buy a new electrical wax stat?
The weather was about zero deg's/ minus 1 when it wouldnt start.

Thank you for your graeat help as always Mike, I really appreciate it!

Are you getting the your boat ready for the summer!

Kind regards,
Karl

If yours left without costing money I would look at that as a bonus, both of mine cost me 50% of everything I had worked for each time.
Black smoke on starting would indicate too much fuel for the amount of air, so maybe worn/ dribbling injectors?
Does engine oil smell of diesel or diluted?
If none of the above and clean / no black smoke when pulling hard up hill then less of an issue.
If Waxstat working correctly advancing the timing from cold it may give cleaner burning with less black smoke, however it was not an issue with the one in my boat, in fact I adjusted the Bosch injector pump to give more fuel then corrected by increasing turbo boost to give more oxygen/air several times in stages to the point I had increased it's original 122hp so that the boats speed reached 26 knots @ 4 gallons to the hour compared with the original 150hp Volvo V6 petrol engine that gave 30 knots @ 10 gallons to the hour of 5 star petrol when it was new in 1970. So I was quite happy with that.
At 71 my boating days are over as it was usually just me getting the boat up the slipway, steam cleaning the weed and barnacles off and applying fresh antifouling each season, the rest of the boat was easy as fibreglass and stainless steel largely, so an engine flush and new oil and filter was all that was left to do each year.
By the way, on yours I assume a good starter and battery so engine spins over fast when starting even in cold weather.

 

[Communicator]

Hi Communicator, my appologies for not replying sooner, have women problems!! Just what I dont need!
Thank you so much for your help explaining that its a flame start, not a glow plug, and sending the links as well, I cant open the Sofim engines link but the Flame Starter link I can. The flame starter link is brialliant as I think it has solved the problem because awhile back I had taken off that wax stat off (electrical side) to test if the pin inside the wax stat was moving when a voltage was applied and contracting when the voltage was disconnected. it was working but it moved that quick, the pin flew out of the wax stat with a spring, I found the pin but couldnt find the spring so I just left the wax stat off completely. So Im not sure now if I have to order a new electrical wax stat or if can get a small spring and try it in the old wax stat?
Would you recommend just buying a new one?
Thank you once again fro your great help! Looks like ive created my own troubles again!!
Kind regards,
Karl

Unfortunately it may be difficult to identify and source a spring with the correct specification. Also I am not convinced that any injection advance obtained will significantly improve the cold starting. Does your vehicle have an in tank fuel lift pump? If not a small leak in the fuel supply line could allow fuel to drain back into the tank, and the transfer pump contained within the injection pump may struggle to reprime the system.

 

[bugsymike]

Unfortunately it may be difficult to identify and source a spring with the correct specification. Also I am not convinced that any injection advance obtained will significantly improve the cold starting. Does your vehicle have an in tank fuel lift pump? If not a small leak in the fuel supply line could allow fuel to drain back into the tank, and the transfer pump contained within the injection pump may struggle to reprime the system.

Not sure about the Ducato version , but the Iveco Daily with the early 2.5 had a mechanical lift pump on the engine above the injector pump and as they are quite old now could certainly be weak if that type, although I suspect the injector pump would have enough fuel within it, to start/fire for a few seconds before dying from lack of supply.
I had a customer with a Peugeot 405 diesel that the engine would always start and as they went to pull await would stumble for a bit and I traced that to an air leak on the fuel filter that the customer had fitted themselves but neglected to fit the O ring at the securing bolt even though in the kit.

 

[mancalledhorse]

If yours left without costing money I would look at that as a bonus, both of mine cost me 50% of everything I had worked for each time.
Black smoke on starting would indicate too much fuel for the amount of air, so maybe worn/ dribbling injectors?
Does engine oil smell of diesel or diluted?
If none of the above and clean / no black smoke when pulling hard up hill then less of an issue.
If Waxstat working correctly advancing the timing from cold it may give cleaner burning with less black smoke, however it was not an issue with the one in my boat, in fact I adjusted the Bosch injector pump to give more fuel then corrected by increasing turbo boost to give more oxygen/air several times in stages to the point I had increased it's original 122hp so that the boats speed reached 26 knots @ 4 gallons to the hour compared with the original 150hp Volvo V6 petrol engine that gave 30 knots @ 10 gallons to the hour of 5 star petrol when it was new in 1970. So I was quite happy with that.
At 71 my boating days are over as it was usually just me getting the boat up the slipway, steam cleaning the weed and barnacles off and applying fresh antifouling each season, the rest of the boat was easy as fibreglass and stainless steel largely, so an engine flush and new oil and filter was all that was left to do each year.
By the way, on yours I assume a good starter and battery so engine spins over fast when starting even in cold weather.

Hi Mike, hope all is well, Im sorry for replying to you late again! Sorry to hear that, luckily mine didnt move in but she did come back all upset saying can we start again, which I agreed....(silly me!!) it didnt last though as she's done the same thing again, so thats it now! The problem with the motor not starting was that 12v supply to the pump, which wasn't present at times. That single 12v cable which supplies the pump seems to split off into two wires, one to the pump and one to the waxstat. I had a look at the connector and the 12v was then present again and the engine started. I remember you or Communicator saying about that 12v supply to the pump (when I sent photo's) you told me to make that wiring better. I will definately do that now, maybe connect up a spare single wire and have it coiled up ready, think thats what you told me, as you said that pump was relying on that siingle wire that went through a connector and splt off into two wires.
Not sure how to go about getting the correct guage wiring for the pump, will probably go to motorfacts and see if they know as I cant see any ID on the wire. Cant really smell any diesel in the eng oil but I did change it last year. It still has a lot of black smoke on start up and idle.

My brother use to have a 23ft dory cathedral hull fishing boat, was great to get out there away from everything.
Thanks Mike for all your help!
Kind regards,
Karl

 

[bugsymike]

It needs a 12 volt supply constantly once ignition is turned on to keep the solenoid on the Bosch injector pump open.
Normally a separate wire in the loom will supply the Wax stat which as @Communicator has mentioned in the past advances the timing when cold to aid smoother running at that point, this would probably help with the smoke when cold by more efficient burning of the fuel.
There will be another wire to the flame start device.
Re the type of wire, you could try measuring the diameter and match it that way, but it has to be suitable for vehicles, what that means is multiple smaller strands of wire which makes it more flexible against vibration, unlike house hold wire which may be only a few strands or even just one in some cases. I always make good soldered joints and don't rely on crimped connections.
Does the engine run clean with no black smoke and plenty of power once fully warmed up?

 

[Communicator]

From eLearn the smallest conductor size used on my x244 is 0.35 sq. mm. These are the really thin ones. An 0.5 sq mm (16 x 0.20mm) thinwall PVC insulated automotive wire can carry as much as 11A. It is quite thin at 1.6mm diameter, so perhaps something more physically robust is called for.
Thinwall 1.0 sq mm (32 x 0.20mm) can carry 16.5A and is listed as being 1.95mm diameter. The next step up is 2.0 sq. mm. (28 x 0.30) thinwall rated at 25A with a diameter of 2.55mm.

From a current carrying point of view the 0.5 sq mm size would be adequate, but as suggested above something thicker may be more appropriate for such a vital circuit. Please note that conductor cross sectional area (csa) is often loosely referred to as 0.5mm, 1.0mm, etc.

I note that @bugsymike has a preference for soldered connections. Perhaps he has seen too many badly executed crimped connections. My soldering experience is over 75 years, but I use crimped connections when appropriate. A crimped termination must have the correct match of conductor, crimp terminal, and quality crimping tool.