Technical Fiat 500D disc brake conversion, with Discs touching pads

[FabianFiat]

I have a restored 1962 Fiat 500D with an engine upgrade (650cc 42hp, 5 speed synchro gearbox front and rear disc brake conversion. I have kept the car on the original wheels with the adapter kit and everything has been supplied by D’Angelo. The car has been transported twice to Middle Barton Garage and the second time they said that the discs were touching the pads and just sanded down the pads . They said that they had resolved the issue .I got the car back and it still has the same problem. Could anybody please advise on this can be rectified. Should the disc itself be shaved off a little? It has been a frustrating experience, to say the least. I am based in Weybridge, so if anybody could suggest a local mechanic. Thanks

 

[Goldnrust]

What is the issue you're trying to resolve? I presume the brakes are dragging, how badly are the brakes dragging? Just a noise? Or is the wheel hot after a drive? Can you feel the car pulling in any direction?

It's quite normal for the pads to lightly touch the brake rotors on a disc brake system. If I went outside and span the wheel on my modern 500 I'd be able to hear the pads touching the disc but the wheel would still spin freely. This can be especially apparent with brand new pads and discs which haven't bedded in yet.

If the brakes are dragging, you can feel them slowing the car down or pulling to one side and you'd likely find the problem wheel feels hot to touch after a drive (hotter than the others!), and allowing extra clearance between the pads and rotor hasn't solved the issue, then for whatever reason the pads are not retracting adequately after you have pressed the pedal. This could be an issue with a sticky master cylinder or calliper, a kinked or collapsed brake line, an issue with the handbrake cable sticking (for the rear brakes)?

 

[FabianFiat]

What is the issue you're trying to resolve? I presume the brakes are dragging, how badly are the brakes dragging? Just a noise? Or is the wheel hot after a drive? Can you feel the car pulling in any direction?

It's quite normal for the pads to lightly touch the brake rotors on a disc brake system. If I went outside and span the wheel on my modern 500 I'd be able to hear the pads touching the disc but the wheel would still spin freely. This can be especially apparent with brand new pads and discs which haven't bedded in yet.

If the brakes are dragging, you can feel them slowing the car down or pulling to one side and you'd likely find the problem wheel feels hot to touch after a drive (hotter than the others!), and allowing extra clearance between the pads and rotor hasn't solved the issue, then for whatever reason the pads are not retracting adequately after you have pressed the pedal. This could be an issue with a sticky master cylinder or calliper, a kinked or collapsed brake line, an issue with the handbrake cable sticking (for the rear brakes)?

Thank you . There is a constant rattling noise at all speeds once the car has been driven from cold for about two minutes or so. The car does not pull and brakes are fine. Middle Barton Garage put a new master cylinder and a new handbrake cable , so the performance is absolutely fine.However the noise is irritating and I cannot enjoy the drive. Naturally, when you apply the brake pedal , it goes away.

 

[Goldnrust]

Ah sure, well I'm glad the brakes are working properly for you!

The rattling is probably the pads themselves rattling then, and it's quite possible that the D'Angelo kit is more focused on performance than road manners so doesn't include some of the extras that help reduce the rattle in OEM applications.

A smear of copper slip on the back on the pads (between the pads and the calliper) can help a little, but if the kit was assembled for you by Middle Barton I'm sure they would have done that?

You can get 'anti rattle' metal shims for some disc brakes (again to go between the pad and calliper) but I suspect you'd have to make/adapt something if the D'Angelo kit didn't come with any. I believe you can get some self adhesive pads that stick to the back of the pads, that might be more universal and easier to adapt, but I have no experience as to whether they work.

Some callipers come with folded metal 'springs' that push against the pads which are there ot reduce pads rattle. These could be missing from your kit? Or could you adapt some from another car?

The usual caveats apply with brakes if in doubt, take it to someone who know's what they're doing. Some rattly brake pads is better than a DIY customisation going wrong and the brakes failing!

 

[GrahamH2]

I have a restored 1962 Fiat 500D with an engine upgrade (650cc 42hp, 5 speed synchro gearbox front and rear disc brake conversion. I have kept the car on the original wheels with the adapter kit and everything has been supplied by D’Angelo. The car has been transported twice to Middle Barton Garage and the second time they said that the discs were touching the pads and just sanded down the pads . They said that they had resolved the issue .I got the car back and it still has the same problem. Could anybody please advise on this can be rectified. Should the disc itself be shaved off a little? It has been a frustrating experience, to say the least. I am based in Weybridge, so if anybody could suggest a local mechanic. Thanks

I have a new to me 500R which had a front disc conversion just before I bought it. When I inspected the brakes I found one wheel just had the normal pad/disc light rubbing but the other had a distinct rattle by turning the wheel back and forth.

What I have found so far: The pads are held in place by 2 split pins and a third split pin holds an anti rattle spring, i.e. a thin folded plate that should press against the back of the pads. The holes in the callipers are 3.5mm diameter but the split pins are closer to 2mm so there is a lot of slack in the system. The anti rattle springs are loose and are actually the main cause of the rattle. Also the calliper is not central to the disc by about .75mm.

I have ordered split pins 3.2 mm diameter and shims to put under the 10mm screws that hold the callipers, plus I will bend the ‘springs’ so they actually touch before refitting them. They are not fitted yet so can’t confirm any outcome to the mods.

This may or may not be relevant to your situation but may give you some idea of where to look.

 

[FabianFiat]

I have a new to me 500R which had a front disc conversion just before I bought it. When I inspected the brakes I found one wheel just had the normal pad/disc light rubbing but the other had a distinct rattle by turning the wheel back and forth.

What I have found so far: The pads are held in place by 2 split pins and a third split pin holds an anti rattle spring, i.e. a thin folded plate that should press against the back of the pads. The holes in the callipers are 3.5mm diameter but the split pins are closer to 2mm so there is a lot of slack in the system. The anti rattle springs are loose and are actually the main cause of the rattle. Also the calliper is not central to the disc by about .75mm.

I have ordered split pins 3.2 mm diameter and shims to put under the 10mm screws that hold the callipers, plus I will bend the ‘springs’ so they actually touch before refitting them. They are not fitted yet so can’t confirm any outcome to the mods.

This may or may not be relevant to your situation but may give you some idea of where to look.

Thank you, all. I will have to look in to this.

 

[FabianFiat]

Thank you, all. I will have to look in to this.

 

[FabianFiat]

Middle Barton Garage have confirmed that the brake pads are touching the calipers and D’Angelo is refusing to provide me with the model type from which he has sourced the calipers. Interestedly he would chase me every day to purchase£20,000 of his overpriced upgrades( including a new gearbox that I to overhaul in the Uk ).I have requested him to supply me the anti-rattle springs and as usual he is questioning the workmanship of the installer( MBG are confident that they are fitted correctly and so am I). I guess I will have to throw these new calipers in the bin. Can anyone recommend a trusted brand for these or alternatively if they could identify the model these might have been sourced from, so I can buy the anti-rattle springs( attached images). Thank you

 

[GrahamH2]

Middle Barton Garage have confirmed that the brake pads are touching the calipers and D’Angelo is refusing to provide me with the model type from which he has sourced the calipers. Interestedly he would chase me every day to purchase£20,000 of his overpriced upgrades( including a new gearbox that I to overhaul in the Uk ).I have requested him to supply me the anti-rattle springs and as usual he is questioning the workmanship of the installer( MBG are confident that they are fitted correctly and so am I). I guess I will have to throw these new calipers in the bin. Can anyone recommend a trusted brand for these or alternatively if they could identify the model these might have been sourced from, so I can buy the anti-rattle springs( attached images). Thank you

The brake pads look to have identifying numbers on them. I would take them out and google any info on the pads which may lead to an identification. Someone my recognise the pads if you show a picture of just the pad.

 

[Bounding Bambino]

First thing first. i would like to say welcome to the club.

So i had a fitment problem with the mfg of this brake kit. I have the 4 piston kit purchased from Axle gerstl
4 piston style

Brake disc tuning kit front, for 2 sides, PREMIUM Fiat 500 - Spare parts Fiat 500 classic 126 600 onderdelen | Axel Gerstl

Brake disc tuning kit front, for 2 sides, PREMIUM Fiat 500

webshop.fiat500126.com

Yours is this kit, obviously you bought from a different source, but the same mfg made it, wherever that could be lol
Single piston style.

Brake disc tuning kit front, for 2 sides, PREMIUM Fiat 500 - Spare parts Fiat 500 classic 126 600 onderdelen | Axel Gerstl

Brake disc tuning kit front, for 2 sides, PREMIUM Fiat 500

webshop.fiat500126.com

I wasn't able to hunt down who was the original mfg, and there is a design flaw in the way it mounts. and causes rubbing of the caliper on the disk. If you read my build thread, i discuss it, and show how to remedy it. Obviously i was super disappointed in the fact that something of this price needed "fitting" and modifications. However, once sorted out, its a really nice kit. Probably one of the nicer kits in term of overall design and material quality (minus the fact that it needs modification to fit, which IMO is not acceptable). But i had no choice but to "modify", but luckily had the tools and knowhow.

PAD INFO:

so, hoping that the pads are the same as mine, which i think they are. The pads originally belong on a classic 80's Benz rear pads. i will go thru my stuff to see if i can find a part number for you to reference. I myself drive a 80's benz and noticed the pads a mile away. I even ordered some EBC Red pads for the fiat if i wanted even more braking performance. Basically reference rear pads for a 86-91 W126(560sel....). or the list on the box below. You should also be able to get the anti rattle clips for the car. The pad hole spacing should be the same, caliper opening might be different but could be close.

Sadly the calipers are custom to this 500 upgrade, and are not a off the shelf product. In regards to the front brakes. I just saw now in your photos you also got rear disks conversion. sadly i havent done any research on them yet.

 

[FabianFiat]

First thing first. i would like to say welcome to the club.

So i had this exact same problem with the mfg of this brake kit. I have the 4 piston kit purchased from Axle gerstl
4 piston style

Brake disc tuning kit front, for 2 sides, PREMIUM Fiat 500 - Spare parts Fiat 500 classic 126 600 onderdelen | Axel Gerstl

Brake disc tuning kit front, for 2 sides, PREMIUM Fiat 500

webshop.fiat500126.com

Yours is this kit, obviously you bought from a different source, but the same mfg made it, wherever that could be lol
Single piston style.

Brake disc tuning kit front, for 2 sides, PREMIUM Fiat 500 - Spare parts Fiat 500 classic 126 600 onderdelen | Axel Gerstl

Brake disc tuning kit front, for 2 sides, PREMIUM Fiat 500

webshop.fiat500126.com

I wasn't able to hunt down who was the original mfg, and there is a design flaw in the way it mounts. and causes rubbing of the caliper on the disk. If you read my build thread, i discuss it, and show how to remedy it. Obviously i was super disappointed in the fact that something of this price needed "fitting" and modifications. However, once sorted out, its a really nice kit. Probably one of the nicer kits in term of overall design and material quality (minus the fact that it needs modification to fit, which IMO is not acceptable). But i had no choice but to "modify", but luckily had the tools and knowhow.

PAD INFO:

so, hoping that the pads are the same as mine, which i think they are. The pads originally belong on a classic 80's benz. i will go thru my stuff to see if i can find a part number for you to reference.
Sadly the calipers are custom to this 500 upgrade, and are not a off the shelf product.

 

[FabianFiat]

First thing first. i would like to say welcome to the club.

So i had a fitment problem with the mfg of this brake kit. I have the 4 piston kit purchased from Axle gerstl
4 piston style

Brake disc tuning kit front, for 2 sides, PREMIUM Fiat 500 - Spare parts Fiat 500 classic 126 600 onderdelen | Axel Gerstl

Brake disc tuning kit front, for 2 sides, PREMIUM Fiat 500

webshop.fiat500126.com

Yours is this kit, obviously you bought from a different source, but the same mfg made it, wherever that could be lol
Single piston style.

Brake disc tuning kit front, for 2 sides, PREMIUM Fiat 500 - Spare parts Fiat 500 classic 126 600 onderdelen | Axel Gerstl

Brake disc tuning kit front, for 2 sides, PREMIUM Fiat 500

webshop.fiat500126.com

I wasn't able to hunt down who was the original mfg, and there is a design flaw in the way it mounts. and causes rubbing of the caliper on the disk. If you read my build thread, i discuss it, and show how to remedy it. Obviously i was super disappointed in the fact that something of this price needed "fitting" and modifications. However, once sorted out, its a really nice kit. Probably one of the nicer kits in term of overall design and material quality (minus the fact that it needs modification to fit, which IMO is not acceptable). But i had no choice but to "modify", but luckily had the tools and knowhow.

PAD INFO:

so, hoping that the pads are the same as mine, which i think they are. The pads originally belong on a classic 80's Benz rear pads. i will go thru my stuff to see if i can find a part number for you to reference. I myself drive a 80's benz and noticed the pads a mile away. I even ordered some EBC Red pads for the fiat if i wanted even more braking performance. Basically reference rear pads for a 86-91 W126(560sel....). or the list on the box below. You should also be able to get the anti rattle clips for the car. The pad hole spacing should be the same, caliper opening might be different but could be close.

Sadly the calipers are custom to this 500 upgrade, and are not an off the shelf product. In regards to the front brakes. I just saw now in your photos you also got rear disks conversion. sadly i havent done any research on them

Thank you, so much . This is super helpful. So to summarise, it is a design fault. I need to buy the rear pads for a W126 and get anti rattle clips for that model? Right , I work for Mercedes-Benz so getting that is not a problem . Could you please forward me your build thread?

 

[Bounding Bambino]

Again, hoping its the issue your having, or a form of it.

Just a word of caution, the thread is super pic heavy, hopefully you have some fast internet lol

500 (Classic) - New Canadian Bambino!

I cant believe a month has flew by with work, and the 500 taking all of my free time. Ive honestly been flying thru the progress on the 500, but it takes time to backup all my photos and find a hour+ to write up a progress report. 😋 So, next on the docket was: Electrical: I had purchased a...

www.fiatforum.com

I cant promise that the Benz anti-rattle clips will fit into the opening of your custom 500 caliper. But considering that the pads are the same (i am nearly certain that your 1 piston calipers use the same pads as my 4 piston). the clips should fit properly onto the pads. And the pin spacing should be the same.

Benz had 2 types of rear calipers they used back in the day, Bendix and ATE. with the pads fitting into both. Both of my w126's have ATE calipers, and ive never seen if there was a different set of caliper mounting hardware for either style. I believe the bendix and ate had the same hardware. Ive replaced the hardware a few times on the one car (+500,000km). and the aftermarket "hardware" kits were universal. So if benz can no longer get it, i would source a aftermarket hardware kit. Obviously aftermarket parts sources are different coast to coast. But the price was much cheaper (4-6$) for the kit that included pins and spring clips for the Benz.

Hopefully this is of some help. I was just disappointed myself that these caliper kits dont come fully sorted out. I honestly wonder if its caused my mfg variances on the cars over the year.. The car they modeled and tested the kit on vs years of production tweaks and changes thruout the 60's and 70's

 

[Bounding Bambino]

I was pondering your kit again. And thinking there could be another source for the rattle.
so. the dual piston style/4 piston style calipers have a piston on either side of the pad, and the caliper is fixed (doesnt move). Yours being a single piston, the caliper is actually floating on an additional bracket, and thus allows the caliper to move as the pads self center on the disk.

Your rattling might actually be comming from the caliper banging around in the grooves of the floating support bracket. I can get into more detail if you want, but honestly would require some "troubbleshooting/R&D" to help solve it.

This isnt uncommon with regular cars however, mfg's put a small spring clip wedged into the caliper groove to prevent the slop from making noise. you also need the "excessive" clearance to prevent caliper binding as drit and brake dust build up on the sliding surfaces of the caliper.

So, 2 options, theres a missing part (missing wedge/spring), or it was never designed to have something from day one (poor design) suited more to racing application where noises are not a concern.

EDIT:
nvr mind. i looked closer and noticed these have sliding pins... They shouldnt have the side effects of rattle if clerances are correct.. Ill have to ponder more..

 

[FabianFiat]

I was pondering your kit again. And thinking there could be another source for the rattle.
so. the dual piston style/4 piston style calipers have a piston on either side of the pad, and the caliper is fixed (doesnt move). Yours being a single piston, the caliper is actually floating on an additional bracket, and thus allows the caliper to move as the pads self center on the disk.

Your rattling might actually be comming from the caliper banging around in the grooves of the floating support bracket. I can get into more detail if you want, but honestly would require some "troubbleshooting/R&D" to help solve it.

This isnt uncommon with regular cars however, mfg's put a small spring clip wedged into the caliper groove to prevent the slop from making noise. you also need the "excessive" clearance to prevent caliper binding as drit and brake dust build up on the sliding surfaces of the caliper.

So, 2 options, theres a missing part (missing wedge/spring), or it was never designed to have something from day one (poor design) suited more to racing application where noises are not a concern.

EDIT:
nvr mind. i looked closer and noticed these have sliding pins... They shouldnt have the side effects of rattle if clerances are correct.. Ill have to ponder more..
View attachment 437429

 

[FabianFiat]

So it looks like it is Part 17 and Mercedes Benz UK,have a handful in stock . I can try with this first and see how it goes . I shall revert, shortly.

 

[Bounding Bambino]

Looks like it. Hope it works for ya. Unfortunately i dont have any spares in my parts to measure.

 

[FabianFiat]

Th

Looks like it. Hope it works for ya. Unfortunately i dont have any spares in my parts to measure.

Thanks for your help so far. The work you have done on your car is impressive. Will report back.

 

[FabianFiat]

Hello everyone, I finally managed to find some time and undo the wheels to take pictures. The “tuck tuck” noise is definitely from the front and not the back . Looking at the brakes, I can see anti rattle clips fitted, unless these are something else? The D’Angelo wishbone bushes are not rubber . Could it be a case of bushes require greasing? I’m baffled!

 

[FabianFiat]

I have a new to me 500R which had a front disc conversion just before I bought it. When I inspected the brakes I found one wheel just had the normal pad/disc light rubbing but the other had a distinct rattle by turning the wheel back and forth.

What I have found so far: The pads are held in place by 2 split pins and a third split pin holds an anti rattle spring, i.e. a thin folded plate that should press against the back of the pads. The holes in the callipers are 3.5mm diameter but the split pins are closer to 2mm so there is a lot of slack in the system. The anti rattle springs are loose and are actually the main cause of the rattle. Also the calliper is not central to the disc by about .75mm.

I have ordered split pins 3.2 mm diameter and shims to put under the 10mm screws that hold the callipers, plus I will bend the ‘springs’ so they actually touch before refitting them. They are not fitted yet so can’t confirm any outcome to the mods.

This may or may not be relevant to your situation but may give you some idea of where to look.

Hi Graham,
I just wanted to check if 3.2mm diameter split pins and shims sorted the problem? Mine has anti rattle springs fitted as well and the noise is only from the front ( sounds like the front right wheel) . I might try your solution. Thanks