General Fiat 500 - Fully Automatic?

[44sunsets]

I've been looking at the 1.2 POP. Conveniently there is a used one for sale local to me for £6700, Beige, 25000 miles.

I'd be wary of buying a used Dualogic car... from my reading, the majority of Dualogic problems on this forum have been with people buying 2nd hand cars. There's just no way of knowing what kind of abuse it's been through. People/dealers can just reset error codes and flog the car off to the next hapless person.

Having said that, I'm very happy with my Dualogic TwinAir that I bought new. No problems so far.

 

[Piccolo Nero e Bella]

This difference pretty much summarises the whole Dualogic experience. You will get better results treating it as a manual - tell it when to change up gears, and it works efficiently. I get smooth results better than I would with a regular manual - no chance of stalling, no need to change down when coming to a stop (it always does that for you). Switch off the engine and it's parked in gear, which is nice too.

-Alex

I do treat the DL as if it were a manual, on longer drives anyhow, but for short hops I tend to leave it in auto so that I don't forget to return it there afterward - the missus gets irate otherwise and it is her car. Overall in my case I have to admit I prefer my manual TA.

Actually, Alex, there is another point related to that which may be confusing for newly minted auto drivers - the lack of a 'P' (Park) setting. Just what is the best procedure for shutting down the DL? Do you select Neutral after switching off, or do you leave it in Auto and move the lever to Neutral and back to Auto (or Reverse of course) after start-up?

I borrowed the Pop's Dualogic manual last night to refresh my memory as to things like that and came across the following concerning kick-down (highlighted) - Is this correct, you use the brake pedal to kick-down?

 

[Eklipze3k]

What's Your budget for a new car?

This is an important question.

Have a look at small Japanese cars, specifically Kei cars or their UK variants, as they're designed as City cars for the Japanese market and a lot of JP drivers prefer automatic they have proper auto boxes. My Pajero Mini for example has a proper auto box and - despite being heavy for it's size - is quite nippy about town. Something with a little less bulk to it would be much more responsive

 

[ahmett]

Does anyone know why Fiat didn't offer a standard auto box in Europe like they've done in the US?

probably cheaper to produce thats why.

 

[ahmett]

It saddens me to say it (this is a Fiat forum after all), but for a new, inexperienced driver buying and running a used small automatic, either the Swift or i10 will be a much, much safer bet than anything out of the Fiat stable (and better than most of the other robotised automatics, too).

A conventional automatic with a torque converter is, IMO, the best choice for Milly; the only real downside is it will use a little more fuel, and cost a little more to tax.

If that saves an expensive repair or, worse still, an accident through unfamiliarity, then it's money well spent.

arent modern dual clutch gearboxes more fuel efficient than manuals?

 

[santa]

I do treat the DL as if it were a manual, on longer drives anyhow, but for short hops I tend to leave it in auto so that I don't forget to return it there afterward - the missus gets irate otherwise and it is her car. Overall in my case I have to admit I prefer my manual TA.

Actually, Alex, there is another point related to that which may be confusing for newly minted auto drivers - the lack of a 'P' (Park) setting. Just what is the best procedure for shutting down the DL? Do you select Neutral after switching off, or do you leave it in Auto and move the lever to Neutral and back to Auto (or Reverse of course) after start-up?

I borrowed the Pop's Dualogic manual last night to refresh my memory as to things like that and came across the following concerning kick-down (highlighted) - Is this correct, you use the brake pedal to kick-down?

When I had my Lancia Ypsilon Dualogic, I just left it in Auto, which was the same as leaving a manual in gear.
I just had to step the brake pedal (as in any other automatic car) to start the engine while still in Auto.
And for kickdown it was the gaspedal not the brakepedal, so I suspect it's a misprint in the manual

 

[jazzster500]

If you took your test in a Corsa from a quick search there seems to be 2 types of auto gearbox fitted, standard auto and easytronic, the easytronic seems similar to the 500 dualogic box. The standard gearbox would of had P N D 3 2 1, the Easytronic would Have neutral auto reverse and + - .
Other autos one for example the honda jazz they came with CVT which has PNDS some models have L also. they did a IShift that was like the dualogic and the easytronic but only from about 2008 2011 the CVT works very similar as a normal auto but sounds a lot different. The Jazz I have is CVT I like it because it feels smoother than the fiat and it does not suffer the delay the fiat can get at junctions when the fiat cant make it mind up if it should go down to first or stay in second. Its got similar performance as the fiat, but does need more revs to get going that's because the engine torque is at higher revs than the fiat. but for most driving very rare you need lots of revs.
Personally I like the Fiat 500 dualogic most of the time had it from new did 6400 miles in 16months. I had a fault come up on gearbox it stuck in 3 and came to a standstill with the faulty gearbox lights. took 2 restarts to get it going again. After that i didnt trust it after reading problems people have had and here and decided part ex it at a great loss. OK it may never of gone wrong again but I didnt want that to happen again where i could be in a busy road. My girlfriend had a 60 plate one with 26000 miles on. Hers seems to be ok other than few times grinding gear to get in reverse, and sticking hatch button.

Hope thats some help.
If i were you i check what sort of auto gearbox you learned in then look for similar one in another car

 

[DavyP]

Hi, I've had 3 Dualogic equipped cars since 2005. They are absolutely the perfect gearbox when they are working correctly, but when they are not they are trouble with a capital T. The main problem appears to be that only the person who designed it ,knows how it works, and I rather much doubt if he could repair one. Certainly no Fiat agents seem to be able to fix them (please let me know if you know of one) . The first one I had ,had the gearbox changed ,and then the actuators changed and it still played up. ( Fiat's final word was - It's a characteristic of the system ! )
One of the present cars, a Panda, works beautifully when it's actually moving , it's the bit to get it moving that's the problem. moving in a slow moving stop-start queue is hell. Queries to Fiat are never answered so ,finally after over30 years of being a Fiat owner I've had enough . I think a Kia or Hyundai small conventional auto will be the next choice.

 

[jrkitching]

Does anyone know why Fiat didn't offer a standard auto box in Europe like they've done in the US?

Emissions and economy.

They'd never be able to get a standard auto box into a low road fund licence category.

arent modern dual clutch gearboxes more fuel efficient than manuals?

They're more fuel efficient than conventional automatics, perhaps by as much as 20% on a small car, hence the above comment.

I doubt very much they're any more economical in the real world than a conventional manual box (though in automatic mode they're probably more economical than someone regularly changing gear at 4000rpm+).

 

[Metalguru3]

Hi
ive had a dualogic since november last year, and despite my fears of ownership after reading all the threads on the site, it has been perfect. My wife needed an auto as she has had a left side stroke and cant press a clutch pedal, and she only wanted a 500, so i had no other option if i wanted to avoid a divorce!
it does need a slightly different approach to driving it compared with a traditional auto, but if you persist it becomes second nature
It is surprisingly quick in sport mode if driven flat out in manual mode and i quite enjoy driving it now.
if youre anywhere near Tamworth you are welcome to come over and i can show you what it does, and you wont have a salesman hassling you to buy it. Good luck with your driving career.

 

[zanes]

Emissions and economy.

They'd never be able to get a standard auto box into a low road fund licence category.



They're more fuel efficient than conventional automatics, perhaps by as much as 20% on a small car, hence the above comment.

I doubt very much they're any more economical in the real world than a conventional manual box (though in automatic mode they're probably more economical than someone regularly changing gear at 4000rpm+).

However, this sometimes almost sounds like the dictionary definition of "false economy"....

 

[44sunsets]

Actually, Alex, there is another point related to that which may be confusing for newly minted auto drivers - the lack of a 'P' (Park) setting. Just what is the best procedure for shutting down the DL? Do you select Neutral after switching off, or do you leave it in Auto and move the lever to Neutral and back to Auto (or Reverse of course) after start-up?

I leave it in gear after I switch off the engine, no need to put it into Neutral.

When the car starts up, the Dualogic system always automatically starts off in Neutral, so I push the gear select lever (gear up, or gear down) to put it into 1st gear. I believe if you have the steering wheel paddles you can use those as well.

It's second nature for me now.

I borrowed the Pop's Dualogic manual last night to refresh my memory as to things like that and came across the following concerning kick-down (highlighted) - Is this correct, you use the brake pedal to kick-down?

That sounds like a typo -- kick-down is when the Dualogic changes to a lower gear in order to provide more acceleration/torque, which typically happens when you're flooring the accelerator pedal (not the brake pedal).

Typical FIAT mistake

 

[Piccolo Nero e Bella]

I leave it in gear after I switch off the engine, no need to put it into Neutral.

When the car starts up, the Dualogic system always automatically starts off in Neutral, so I push the gear select lever (gear up, or gear down) to put it into 1st gear. I believe if you have the steering wheel paddles you can use those as well.

It's second nature for me now.

Just want to clarify Sunsets; do you mean you can just push the lever to + or - without going to Neutral first?

 

[Piccolo Nero e Bella]

That sounds like a typo -- kick-down is when the Dualogic changes to a lower gear in order to provide more acceleration/torque, which typically happens when you're flooring the accelerator pedal (not the brake pedal).

Typical FIAT mistake

That's what I thought but, knowing FIAT, I had lingering doubts.

If a newly licensed driver read that and tried to put it into practice at highway speeds the results could be... interesting.

 

[44sunsets]

Just want to clarify Sunsets; do you mean you can just push the lever to + or - without going to Neutral first?

Correct, I push it to + or -, and that puts the car into first gear.

 

[Millycupcake]

Hi again, thanks for all the replies since I last checked. A lot of food for thought!

I learnt in a Corsa that was a standard auto for anyone wondering.

My budget (not set in stone) is around £7000, but could stretch to £11000 ish if I relied on a finance deal, or pushed the boat out for a new car rather than a used one!

Can't remember who questioned it but as far as I'm aware the Toyota IQ did have a standard automatic option (although granted it is hard to find one). Also the newer smart cars 2014-Present have a standard auto gear box. My other half has been doing some research for me thankfully

Went to the renault dealership near me today and looked at the twingo (which was ideal, stylish, small and available in auto) however as the auto option is new, you cant get a used one, and its a 3-5 month waiting time if i bought a new one... and I don't want to wait anywhere near that long so its now off my list. Also because it was new, and an auto it was a little over my top end budget although with finance it may have been manageable.

Whilst I was there though I cam across a used Renault Zoe, electric car (therefor fully auto, like a go cart!) £7995, one previous owner, less than 2000 miles on the clock. Very pretty, top specs! Very tempting, will do more research but it does look like possibly one to go for. Sat in it, got a feel for it, it is just lovely. Will test drive if I end up serious about potentially buying it. Downside is the 100 mile range before it runs out of battery... however as I'm likely to be driving around 15 miles a day this shouldn't be an issue for me. I'm not one for adventuring, just want to do my daily commute! Its also a little bigger than I'd like, but its no bigger than the Corsa I learnt in. Its more of an electric super mini than the tiny city car I was initially looking for, Look at me learning the lingo eh!

Thanks for the recommendation of the i10, its not the most fashionable, but it certainly looks like a good option from a practicality point of view. I'm hopefully going to a Hyundai dealership and a Smart / Mercedes dealership tomorrow (if they are open)

I'll let you know how I get on

Thanks again everyone

 

[Piccolo Nero e Bella]

Correct, I push it to + or -, and that puts the car into first gear.

OK - tried that today. Moving the lever into + works but - doesn't, premusably because there's nothing below 1st which is already set.

Also tested the kickdown. With the strictly local driving I do in the Pop there isn't much call for kickdown so I'd never even wondered if it worked - now I know. After booting the throttle there's a subjectively endless hiatus then, just as you think nothing's going to happen, everything does. When you back off again it takes the box a little while to sort itself then it trundles along as if nothing happened.

 

[gazz_bee]

Hi again, thanks for all the replies since I last checked. A lot of food for thought!


Whilst I was there though I cam across a used Renault Zoe, electric car (therefor fully auto, like a go cart!) £7995, one previous owner, less than 2000 miles on the clock. Very pretty, top specs! Very tempting, will do more research but it does look like possibly one to go for. Sat in it, got a feel for it, it is just lovely. Will test drive if I end up serious about potentially buying it. Downside is the 100 mile range before it runs out of battery... however as I'm likely to be driving around 15 miles a day this shouldn't be an issue for me. I'm not one for adventuring, just want to do my daily commute! Its also a little bigger than I'd like, but its no bigger than the Corsa I learnt in. Its more of an electric super mini than the tiny city car I was initially looking for, Look at me learning the lingo eh!


Thanks again everyone

In my experience, the Zoe's 100 mile range is optimistic. 75 miles is more realistic and maybe 55-60 miles in the depths of winter. The monthly battery hire needs to be added to the purchase cost of the car though so the financing might not be quite as you expect. Also, I've had some connection problems between car and charging station that have prevented me from charging our Zoe pool cars. Saying that, it is a fun car to drive with masses of torque from a standing start and (should) have lower maintenance costs.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

Whilst I was there though I cam across a used Renault Zoe, electric car (therefor fully auto, like a go cart!) £7995, one previous owner, less than 2000 miles on the clock. Very pretty, top specs! Very tempting, will do more research but it does look like possibly one to go for.

Be aware of any Renault electric cars, yes they seem cheap but you don't own the battery then on top of any monthly finance repayment you have to pay quite a lot as a rental fee for the battery, they don't like to tell you about that though

 

[alexGS]

OK - tried that today. Moving the lever into + works but - doesn't, premusably because there's nothing below 1st which is already set.

Also tested the kickdown. With the strictly local driving I do in the Pop there isn't much call for kickdown so I'd never even wondered if it worked - now I know. After booting the throttle there's a subjectively endless hiatus then, just as you think nothing's going to happen, everything does. When you back off again it takes the box a little while to sort itself then it trundles along as if nothing happened.

Hello - sorry I didn't reply to your earlier question - it got covered off by 44sunsets, I think. Always just leave the lever in the middle when switching off, so that it's parked in whichever gear was being used (1 or R).

Then when starting up with the brake pressed, a quick push of the lever and it's ready to go.

I only ever move the lever to neutral if I get out of the car with the engine running (letterbox, etc.) to save the annoying DING DING DING that you get when it shifts itself into N after opening the driver's door. If the lever is already in N, there's no sound.

Low-speed manoeuvring from 1 to R and back again seems to be much quicker in some particular cars than in others. In my 2010 Dualogic 500, it would frequently refuse to do what I wanted and gave a flurry of dings unless the brake pedal was pressed with time to spare.

In my 2008 model, it seems far more tolerant when the brake pedal is released just before selecting a gear, etc. Some of this may be down to brake switch adjustment, as I have been careful to adjust the brake switch correctly on the 2008 car. Remove the switch, pull out the plunger with pliers, refit, and it self-adjusts. I've put this here for completeness only, in case anyone has problems relating to selecting gears from rest (somewhat related to your question )

It's interesting to hear your report of the kickdown implementation. I suspect it is a lot more eager in the Sport mode which the 1.2 doesn't have. I don't think I have ever relied on the kickdown - I prefer instead to drop it down a gear manually before overtaking or a steep hill. That's probably smoother as well. I think this is another example of when it really deserves to be driven manually.

-Alex