Technical Fiat 500 (2012) chronic tracking issues

[cprobertson1]

Good afternoon ladies and gents!

I'm having problems with my Fiat 500 (2012): that's the second set of front tyres we've been through this year - and the third time we've had it at the garage to get the tracking sorted... only for us to hit a pothole at 20mph and knock the tracking out again on the way home from the garage!

What's happening is that the tracking seems to go way more than it should, particularly after hitting even small potholes - and it just doesn't seem right - it seems too fragile - and it seems to be going out by quite a bit to the point that it becomes unsafe to drive (steering wheel at 1 o'clock position just to drive straight).

It's just occurred to me that the latest misalignment may be the steering wheel being out of alignment - but in previous instances it was definitely the wheels (I haven't specifically checked alignment on the wheels yet) - will check that as well - but given that it seemed to go out after we hit a small pothole I'd be more inclined to blame the tracking =/

So - my question is in two parts:
1) Can anybody suggest a reason why the tracking keeps going out? I've never heard of any other 500 users having this problem (though, I didn't look particularly hard). The car is secondhand, but as far as I know, has never been involved in an accident. There is also an advisory for one of the shock absorbers (I don't know which one, will check later - if it's one of the front wheels then I'd call that a likely candidate!).

2) Is there anything stopping me from jacking the car up onto some stands and adjusting the tracking myself (there are tutorials online for adjusting the tracking, and I'm an engineer so I'm comfortable adjusting and aligning things within small tolerances) - if so, am I correct in thinking that the tracking is changed the same way in most cars (loosen off the lock nut, rotate the tie rod connecting the wheel to the steering mechanism, set the desired length, and then tighten the locking nut back on. When I say a locking nut, I mean a nut for locking - not a locknut btw! )

Many thanks - and sorry to be a nuisance!

 

[jrkitching]

Good afternoon ladies and gents!

Hello and welcome to the forum.

The 500 (and the Panda, which shares an almost identical chassis) is not the easiest car to work with when it comes to setting the wheel geometry.

The rear beam is a particular problem, as it needs to be both geometrically and dimensionally correct (and it's manufactured to some rather wide tolerances), and properly aligned with the centreline of the car. There's no easy way of adjusting the rear beam; what you get is down to the luck of the draw. As with any rear beam setup, it's vulnerable to being distorted/misaligned if the rear of the car is slid sideways into a kerb; with a secondhand car, you've no way of knowing how a previous owner has driven it.

There's nothing to stop you from adjusting the tracking yourself, but respectfully, some of what you've posted suggests the first thing you need to do is some research on the basic principles of 4 wheel alignment - there's plenty of information out there on the 'net. Note particularly that you can't track the car when it's jacked up; it must be done on a dead level surface with the weight of the car on its wheels.

If the rear beam isn't aligned with the car centreline, no amount of front wheel adjustment will ever get the car to run straight, or wear its tyres evenly.

Getting a full four wheel alignment (google "Hunter alignment") could be a good place to start, but what you get is somewhat down to the skill of the operator.

 

[John202020]

This might sound a bit extreme, but replace all of the front suspension(if you're keeping the car), by that I mean lower control arms, shocks, ideally springs, drop links, top mountings/bearing, top shock cups+covers, ideally bump stops, track rod ends.
Then have it fully tracked?
Parts are cheap and its a DIY job to replace all of the above with some tools

How were the tyres worn? inside, outside, same each side of car or only one side?
Might also be worth a look at the steering rack too, but my guess is suspension?

 

[jrkitching]

This might sound a bit extreme, but replace all of the front suspension(if you're keeping the car), by that I mean lower control arms, shocks, ideally springs, drop links, top mountings/bearing, top shock cups+covers, ideally bump stops, track rod ends.

It may sound extreme, but the reality is that you can't set the tracking properly if there is appreciable play in any of these parts.

Perhaps a less extreme suggestion might be to check all of these items and replace any which are excessively worn, and only then set the tracking.

 

[cprobertson1]

Hello and welcome to the forum.

The 500 (and the Panda, which shares an almost identical chassis) is not the easiest car to work with when it comes to setting the wheel geometry.

The rear beam is a particular problem, as it needs to be both geometrically and dimensionally correct (and it's manufactured to some rather wide tolerances), and properly aligned with the centreline of the car. There's no easy way of adjusting the rear beam; what you get is down to the luck of the draw. As with any rear beam setup, it's vulnerable to being distorted/misaligned if the rear of the car is slid sideways into a kerb; with a secondhand car, you've no way of knowing how a previous owner has driven it.

There's nothing to stop you from adjusting the tracking yourself, but respectfully, some of what you've posted suggests the first thing you need to do is some research on the basic principles of 4 wheel alignment - there's plenty of information out there on the 'net. Note particularly that you can't track the car when it's jacked up; it must be done on a dead level surface with the weight of the car on its wheels.

If the rear beam isn't aligned with the car centreline, no amount of front wheel adjustment will ever get the car to run straight, or wear its tyres evenly.

Getting a full four wheel alignment (google "Hunter alignment") could be a good place to start, but what you get is somewhat down to the skill of the operator.

Dang - I was hoping it'd be a simpler job that that - oh well, I guess that's why they call it "wishful thinking"!

I've only had a cursory glance so far about adjusting the tracking rather than looking at specifics: but all the guides I've seen so far (again, I haven't looked in-depth yet - only scratched the surface) involved jacking the front up and making the adjustments (the adjustments seemed to be based for the most part on using strings and plumblines as a reference and measuring the displacement of the wheel and then adjusting it from there - I didn't pay attention to the specifics - rather I just put it in the category of "some maths and measurement I'll have to deal with" and put it aside for the time being, at least until it comes time to do a deeper search!

Thanks for the starting points on the searches though - if I decide to bite the bullet and go for it I'll definitely be re-reading this post and then committing myself to some deep-reading!

This might sound a bit extreme, but replace all of the front suspension(if you're keeping the car), by that I mean lower control arms, shocks, ideally springs, drop links, top mountings/bearing, top shock cups+covers, ideally bump stops, track rod ends.
Then have it fully tracked?
Parts are cheap and its a DIY job to replace all of the above with some tools

How were the tyres worn? inside, outside, same each side of car or only one side?
Might also be worth a look at the steering rack too, but my guess is suspension?

Aye, suspension may be a good call actually - I shall have a good look in the near future.

That seems like a lot of work - while I don't doubt I could manage to get the parts in the right place - I would be paranoid about the quality of the repair afterwards!

As for tire wear... if I recall correctly, rear tires are wearing nominally, front right is heavily worn right across it, and the front left is bald on the inside, and like-new on the outside... As I said, one of the shocks is due replacement - but, I can't remember which one! I have a suspicion it was one of the rear wheels, but I can't say for certain.

It may sound extreme, but the reality is that you can't set the tracking properly if there is appreciable play in any of these parts.

Perhaps a less extreme suggestion might be to check all of these items and replace any which are excessively worn, and only then set the tracking.

That is probably a good call - a nice middle-ground between replacing everything and just tuning it. Either way, it looks like I've got quite a job ahead of me!



Thanks for all the advice so far! It's very much appreciated! I'll report back here before actually doing anything just to make sure I'm on the right track.

PS - I should have mentioned... I'm an engineer - NOT a mechanic! Dunning Kruger effect is in full-force! I build bits for oilrigs, NOT cars - anything I think I know may be wrong, so don't hesitate to nudge me and say "Naw. Dosnae work like that, mate " - I won't mind

 

[Ralf S.]

If it was me... I'd get the beast onto a 4-wheel alignment gig so that you have a readout of each wheel's tracking and camber. The front wheels are the only ones you can really adjust (and tracking only, at that) but the 4-wheel read-out will tell you what's happening across the car.

If your rear tyres are lasting forever, then 90% chance there is nothing amiss there. The rear beam alignment or the swing arm bushes or fading damper bushes (if it clonks... almost considered a 500 consumable) could be throwing out some strange geometry though, that might be affecting the front, so it's worth knowing what's going on.. but I think most of the action is going to be at the front.

Check the readout the 4-Wheel is going to give you. Forget tracking for the moment; the main thing to look at is the wheel camber. Too much positive camber is only caused by worn lower suspension wishbone arms... (occasionally, worn upper suspension) or inperfect accident repairs.

If you arm bushes look remotely old, dry or cracked (if they have the Fiat parts logo on them then they're likely to be the originals .. and 7 years isn't a bad innings) then it's worth fitting a new arm, bearing in mind they're quite cheap. In your case, if they're both the same/age, I'd fit a pair since you have a chronic problem to sort out and fixing one side might highlight the other side is not much better.

Buy quality items (TRW or Fiat) and get a garage to fit them. There's nothing very tricky or unusual about 500 arms, so it won't cost much.

Once you have new arms, get the camber re-checked and see whether that's made a difference. Your car isn't the oldest one out there, so I'm assuming the suspension top mounts will be okay.. but if/when the geezers are fitting your new arms, get them to have a nose about the damper top-mounts and the damper (leaks?) and the springs (bits of coil missing) though these are usually problems for later in a car's life. If your car is silent and rides bumps "reasonably" then chances are it's okay up top.

If the camber looks good, then get the garage to adjust the tracking. As you summise, it's the regular system of track-rod and lock-nut. Get the steering wheel pointing forwards, release a lock nut and screw in/out the track rod until the wheel is "straight" (to settings). Then do the other wheel. Robert is your mother's brother.

I dunno how wheels go out of alignment from hitting bumps (since the tracking is controlled by a track-rod/ball joint that is not particularly soft or easy to bend... but that's just an aside. The steering wheel should be pointing straight ahead to keep the car straight though. If you have to tug it one way or another, that's not good, so it's worth it (cost of the tyres) to get it corrected as soon as you think it's "off".


Ralf S.

 

[cprobertson1]

If it was me... I'd get the beast onto a 4-wheel alignment gig so that you have a readout of each wheel's tracking and camber. The front wheels are the only ones you can really adjust (and tracking only, at that) but the 4-wheel read-out will tell you what's happening across the car.

If your rear tyres are lasting forever, then 90% chance there is nothing amiss there. The rear beam alignment or the swing arm bushes or fading damper bushes (if it clonks... almost considered a 500 consumable) could be throwing out some strange geometry though, that might be affecting the front, so it's worth knowing what's going on.. but I think most of the action is going to be at the front.

Check the readout the 4-Wheel is going to give you. Forget tracking for the moment; the main thing to look at is the wheel camber. Too much positive camber is only caused by worn lower suspension wishbone arms... (occasionally, worn upper suspension) or inperfect accident repairs.

If you arm bushes look remotely old, dry or cracked (if they have the Fiat parts logo on them then they're likely to be the originals .. and 7 years isn't a bad innings) then it's worth fitting a new arm, bearing in mind they're quite cheap. In your case, if they're both the same/age, I'd fit a pair since you have a chronic problem to sort out and fixing one side might highlight the other side is not much better.

Buy quality items (TRW or Fiat) and get a garage to fit them. There's nothing very tricky or unusual about 500 arms, so it won't cost much.

Once you have new arms, get the camber re-checked and see whether that's made a difference. Your car isn't the oldest one out there, so I'm assuming the suspension top mounts will be okay.. but if/when the geezers are fitting your new arms, get them to have a nose about the damper top-mounts and the damper (leaks?) and the springs (bits of coil missing) though these are usually problems for later in a car's life. If your car is silent and rides bumps "reasonably" then chances are it's okay up top.

If the camber looks good, then get the garage to adjust the tracking. As you summise, it's the regular system of track-rod and lock-nut. Get the steering wheel pointing forwards, release a lock nut and screw in/out the track rod until the wheel is "straight" (to settings). Then do the other wheel. Robert is your mother's brother.

I dunno how wheels go out of alignment from hitting bumps (since the tracking is controlled by a track-rod/ball joint that is not particularly soft or easy to bend... but that's just an aside. The wheel should be pointing straight ahead to keep the car straight though. If you have to tug it one way or another, that's not good, so it's worth it (cost of the tyres) to get it corrected as soon as you think it's "off".


Ralf S.

That sounds like good advise. I'll have a look around to see where I can get the tracking quantified - am I right in thinking it's "hunter alignment" I should be searching for (as jrkitching suggested)?

 

[Ralf S.]

Yes.. Hunter is a manufacturer of the 4-wheel alignment kit you're most likely to find out there, hence the name. I dunno if there are other manufacturers who offer similar equipment.


Ralf S.

 

[cprobertson1]

Awesome. There are a few garages near me that do it so I will hopefully get that done this weekend assuming they can fit me in!

-EDIT-
Booked in at 1400 on Saturday at a wheel specialist rather than a regular garage. Will report back on the results!

Can anyone think of anything else worthwhile that I should ask him to take a quick look at while he's got it jacked up?

 

[Ralf S.]

Once the beast is in the air, it's easier to spot any issues with the springs or the damper top mounts... so ask him to have a look in there as well, and give it a thorough prodding.

With no weight on the car it's easier to see what the wishbone bushes look like and whether there is any play in the damper top mounts and the steering rack (unlikely... but it could be the tracking is fine when static but the rack has slop in it, which would make the wheel move about, even when the steering wheel is not moving).

The wheel specialists would have seen a lot of different causes of bad tracking though, so they'll probably know where to look.


Ralf S.

 

[cprobertson1]

Once the beast is in the air, it's easier to spot any issues with the springs or the damper top mounts... so ask him to have a look in there as well, and give it a thorough prodding.

With no weight on the car it's easier to see what the wishbone bushes look like and whether there is any play in the damper top mounts and the steering rack (unlikely... but it could be the tracking is fine when static but the rack has slop in it, which would make the wheel move about, even when the steering wheel is not moving).

The wheel specialists would have seen a lot of different causes of bad tracking though, so they'll probably know where to look.


Ralf S.

Happy Monday folks! Hope you all had a good weekend.

The missus got her car down and immediately told me "the tracking fixed itself" so I stroked my chin for a little and then suggested we take it down to the alignment centre anyway - I don't trust Murphy to fix cars (as in Murphy's law - I still haven't figured out whether that's a common phrase in the UK or not... I think we prefer "sod's law" but I haven't actually spoken to enough people to find out!)

We didn't see anything immediately obvious, though he did highlight that the rear-right shock absorber and spring look a bit past-it: the shock in particular has a neat line of rust down one side making em think that there's been a trickle of water over it.

So, bearing in mind I've not done any research on it yet (not even a cursory glance) - how difficult is it to replace the rear spings/shock absorbers? Is it just a case of jacking it up bolting/unbolting things in the correct order? Is there any/a lot of tuning that needs done after replacement?*

In other words, is it user-replaceable for a moderate car-newbie?

*--EDIT--
Seems to be a few youtube vids on it, so at a very quick glance, it would seem to be doable/not too difficult ("not-too-difficult" is not the same as "easy" btw )

 

[Ralf S.]

Yes.. pretty much you jack up the car, undo the damper bottom mount, undo the damper top mount and the damper comes out.

The spring may or may not try to escape while there's no weight on it and the damper isn't preventing it from fully elongating.. but if you support the car on an axle stand under the body or axle, you can use your trolley jack under the swing arm to lift it slightly to get the new damper aligned with the mounts. It's probably too heavy (and it has a spring) to manhandle it by hand.


Ralf S.

 

[cprobertson1]

Yes.. pretty much you jack up the car, undo the damper bottom mount, undo the damper top mount and the damper comes out.

The spring may or may not try to escape while there's no weight on it and the damper isn't preventing it from fully elongating.. but if you support the car on an axle stand under the body or axle, you can use your trolley jack under the swing arm to lift it slightly to get the new damper aligned with the mounts. It's probably too heavy (and it has a spring) to manhandle it by hand.


Ralf S.

Finally done!

The missus had her car down at the weekend and I finally hard the parts to hand.

That's it now running smoothly again, even got it past it's M.O.T.!

Jacked it up on the stands and got to work - it seems the rear-right shock was definitely not a happy camper - crack in the upper cam (hadn't given way yet) and it was leaky.

All running well now - got it put in for tracking alignment and put it in for an MOT -- passed with only an advisory on a hole in the exhaust flexi-section - hopefully another cheap do-it-at-home fix; though I've not looked into it yet!

Anyway! Thanks for the help folks - couldn't have done it without your help!

 

[John202020]

Finally done!

The missus had her car down at the weekend and I finally hard the parts to hand.

That's it now running smoothly again, even got it past it's M.O.T.!

Jacked it up on the stands and got to work - it seems the rear-right shock was definitely not a happy camper - crack in the upper cam (hadn't given way yet) and it was leaky.

All running well now - got it put in for tracking alignment and put it in for an MOT -- passed with only an advisory on a hole in the exhaust flexi-section - hopefully another cheap do-it-at-home fix; though I've not looked into it yet!

Anyway! Thanks for the help folks - couldn't have done it without your help!

Complete new system £81 if you need it? See flexi pipe hole post for link