General Facelift Fiat Panda 319.

[TinyTurbo]

Another small detail from the italian site ... the new 4x4 is listed as having adjustable lumbar support in the driver's seat (google translate). This could be a big plus for those who've found the seats in the panda are uncomfortable on long trips. Someone on the 'seat' thread confirmed that the current 4x4 doesn't.

 

[The Pretender]

I'm not really convinced bij the restyle so far, as seen on the Italian site.
First there are very poor paint and fabric colour choices for the 2017 year and also model limited.
In the wheel department it is even worse, and the only new wheel so far is hideous IMHO.
Disappointing is the fact that there seems to be no real changes to the car, not even LED DRL's.
In the engine department there has not changed much either.
There is still not a more powerful engine like for example the 105 hp TwinAir in combination with a 6-speed manual gearbox and disc brakes al around.
Still no sign of a 1.2ltr FIRE engine replacement like the new 80 hp 3 cylinder GSE engine.
The only positive thing so far i have seen is the "Uconnect unit with DAB+"

 

[AB100]

I'm not really convinced bij the restyle so far, as seen on the Italian site.
First there are very poor paint and fabric colour choices for the 2017 year and also model limited.
In the wheel department it is even worse, and the only new wheel so far is hideous IMHO.
Disappointing is the fact that there seems to be no real changes to the car, not even LED DRL's.
In the engine department there has not changed much either.
There is still not a more powerful engine like for example the 105 hp TwinAir in combination with a 6-speed manual gearbox and disc brakes al around.
Still no sign of a 1.2ltr FIRE engine replacement like the new 80 hp 3 cylinder GSE engine.
The only positive thing so far i have seen is the "Uconnect unit with DAB+"

Perhaps all that Spy-shot masking was not to hide the changes but to hide the lack of them.


The new seat fabric looks better and the dash looks better but it's not exactly inspiring. They REALLY don't want to take sales away from the 500 do they?

 

[The Pretender]

Perhaps all that Spy-shot masking was not to hide the changes but to hide the lack of them.


The new seat fabric looks better and the dash looks better but it's not exactly inspiring. They REALLY don't want to take sales away from the 500 do they?

My preferred choice was the Panda Lounge in "Caffe Latte" colour with the Black/red interior, but that was only available in the first year, after that you could only get the beige/sand/black interior with the "Caffe Latte" colour.
Fiat Panda and 500 owners are very different people, i don't see the point of limiting the Panda choices.
I think Fiat would sell even more Panda's then they already do, if they would increase the choices to 500 level.
I even think that the lak of a 5-door 500 and the limited choices of the Panda will cost customers, that move els ware.
Me personally don't like the 500, that's why i have chosen the Panda, but i would not mind having the choice to be able to buy a Panda 105 TA Lounge or even a 120 hp T-Jet Panda Lounge.

 

[AB100]

My preferred choice was the Panda Lounge in "Caffe Latte" colour with the Black/red interior, but that was only available in the first year, after that you could only get the beige/sand/black interior with the "Caffe Latte" colour.
Fiat Panda and 500 owners are very different people, i don't see the point of limiting the Panda choices.
I think Fiat would sell even more Panda's then they already do, if they would increase the choices to 500 level.
I even think that the lak of a 5-door 500 and the limited choices of the Panda will cost customers, that move els ware.
Me personally don't like the 500, that's why i have chosen the Panda, but i would not mind having the choice to be able to buy a Panda 105 TA Lounge or even a 120 hp T-Jet Panda Lounge.

I'd be right behind you on a 105TA Lounge. So much so, I would probably even go for a boring colour.

 

[The Pretender]

I'd be right behind you on a 105TA Lounge. So much so, I would probably even go for a boring colour.

I really would not know what colour to choose if it would come to that.
And if you choose a colour it could not be available for the Lounge, because some colors are restricted to certain models.
I would have hoped for more inspiring colors like "Azzurro Italia" or still the "Verde Prato", that stand out from the masses.
White, Black, Silver Grey, Dark Drey, Dark Blue, i would die off colour boredom.

 

[The Pretender]

The cross looks identical aside from the ICE & steering wheel although it gets the additional safety kit to satisfy the 5* NCAP.

No 105bhp TA is a missed open goal IMHO

The 105 TA could come in play 2017, because that is the year the new 3 cilinder GSE-engine comes into production. (1.0ltr 80 hp)
At that time it could replace both the 1.2 FIRE and the 85 TA as the new base engine.
The 105 TA could then come into the Panda as the new top range engine.

 

[The Beard]

Maybe they're still working on the 150hp, supercharged, 600cc single

I'd heard it was to have a 750 9 valve triple cam single putting out 175 hp. But that might just be rumour. ?

 

[TheR]

I guess Fiat is following the old if it aint broke don't try to fix it principal.
I believe they pretty well know who there Panda customers are and they probably aren't waiting for more thrills, toys or power just nice motoring at an affordable price.
The twinairs used to be interesting because of tax advantages in some countries but I think the four cilinder models are getting more popular now that the tax advantages have gotten less.
For those who long for 105bhp just get it tuned for 500 euro's and if you want better handling get stickier tyres and maybe some lowering springs.
I'm glad they changed so little

 

[TinyTurbo]

I guess Fiat is following the old if it aint broke don't try to fix it principal.
I believe they pretty well know who there Panda customers are and they probably aren't waiting for more thrills, toys or power just nice motoring at an affordable price.
The twinairs used to be interesting because of tax advantages in some countries but I think the four cilinder models are getting more popular now that the tax advantages have gotten less.
For those who long for 105bhp just get it tuned for 500 euro's and if you want better handling get stickier tyres and maybe some lowering springs.
I'm glad they changed so little

Good post, although I'm not sure I agree about the twin-air advantages declining compared with a 4. Since the Twin-Air and Fords 1.0 ecoboost, nearly all manufacturers are following the small capacity turbo engines route, although they've all copied ford's 3-cyl rather than fiats 2.

105's Torque output is no higher than the 85 and not from quite so low engine speed - the tuning route you suggest boosts that too, more useful.

 

[TheR]

Good post, although I'm not sure I agree about the twin-air advantages declining compared with a 4. Since the Twin-Air and Fords 1.0 ecoboost, nearly all manufacturers are following the small capacity turbo engines route, although they've all copied ford's 3-cyl rather than fiats 2.

105's Torque output is no higher than the 85 and not from quite so low engine speed - the tuning route you suggest boosts that too, more useful.

I was just talking about the economical advantages tax wise and that may be something that only aplies in some European countries like the Netherlands. When the Panda was launched you had to pay no road tax or a special tax(bpm) that is added to cars on top of what the English call VAT(both are adding up to about 40% of taxes on a normal car). All has to do with emisions and if emission was low enough the bpm was very low and the car much cheaper. Now that these advantages have more or less gone the 4 cilinder models gained popularity (before they where hardly on offer over here). And I think for people that are looking for a cheap runnabout a 4 cilinder without turbo makes a lot of sense economicaly.Both for fuell economy, running cost and reliability.

For most other cars the downsize turbo trend makes a lot of sense all though I believe a simple four cilinder will always be more reliabal in the long run and Mazda still holds on to there normally aspirated engines wich in my opinion also makes a lot of sense. The lease crowd doesn't care about the tiny turbo engines in there Mondeo and Passats etc. but I think for people that are looking for a car that will last 10 years without to much problems or extra costs the normally aspirated cars will be a smarter option.
Lots of things have changed in car land and some trends I realy don't understand.
People buying/leasing Mercedes CLA's with 109bhp and Audi's with 82bhp for premium prices. I think that kind of performance at these prices are rather silly but this trend is something that also has to do a lot with tax rules over here.
Worst thing is that all these rules and resulting modern engine and downsize crap doesn't help the environment half as much as what we are made to believe.

 

[The Pretender]

Good post, although I'm not sure I agree about the twin-air advantages declining compared with a 4. Since the Twin-Air and Fords 1.0 ecoboost, nearly all manufacturers are following the small capacity turbo engines route, although they've all copied ford's 3-cyl rather than fiats 2.

105's Torque output is no higher than the 85 and not from quite so low engine speed - the tuning route you suggest boosts that too, more useful.

The interesting thing about the 85 TA and 105 TA is, that they both have 145 Nm of torque according to Fiat.
After remapping them both, the 85 TA wel end up around 102 hp where the 105 TA will end up around 120 hp.
But the most interesting thing is that both engines top-out at 172 Nm of torque.

For general information, some tuners also fiddle a little with safety sensors to get a slightly higher hp and torque. (up to 105 hp and 190 Nm)

 

[gar074]

I believe a simple four cilinder will always be more reliabal in the long run and Mazda still holds on to there normally aspirated engines wich in my opinion also makes a lot of sense. The lease crowd doesn't care about the tiny turbo engines in there Mondeo and Passats etc. but I think for people that are looking for a car that will last 10 years without to much problems or extra costs the normally aspirated cars will be a smarter option.
Lots of things have changed in car land and some trends I realy don't understand.
People buying/leasing Mercedes CLA's with 109bhp and Audi's with 82bhp for premium prices. I think that kind of performance at these prices are rather silly but this trend is something that also has to do a lot with tax rules over here.
Worst thing is that all these rules and resulting modern engine and downsize crap doesn't help the environment half as much as what we are made to believe.

Agree 100%. I'm ancient enough to remember when Renault bucked the trend and put a relatively large, unstressed motor in the 5GTL, which gave significantly better fuel economy than the smaller motors, which owners needed to rev the nuts off in order to get from A to B at more than a snail's pace.

I simply can't get my head around something the size of a Mondeo or an Octavia with a 1.0 engine. Call me old-fashioned.

 

[The Pretender]

Agree 100%. I'm ancient enough to remember when Renault bucked the trend and put a relatively large, unstressed motor in the 5GTL, which gave significantly better fuel economy than the smaller motors, which owners needed to rev the nuts off in order to get from A to B at more than a snail's pace.

I simply can't get my head around something the size of a Mondeo or an Octavia with a 1.0 engine. Call me old-fashioned.

Nothing beats the combination of a small car with a big engine.

 

[The Pretender]

Also, the less cylinders you have the less torque you have.
a 1ltr 4 cylinder engine will have more torque then a 1ltr 3 cylinder engine.
No matter both are turbocharged or not.

 

[R1NGA]

Worst thing is that all these rules and resulting modern engine and downsize crap doesn't help the environment half as much as what we are made to believe.

And what really scares me is how development and technology are almost entirely driven by legislation, which is drawn up in the main by idiot politicians and bureaucrats with more drive for their own self-importance and personal financial gain than the good of the planet as a whole. Don't get me wrong, I love my TA engine, but it is fundamentally less planet-saving than the older designs - and I bought it knowing that, regardless.

Look what the EU did when approving CATs as the way forward instead of Lean-Burn technology that was so well thought out and developed by Toyota in the early 90's - inferior tech and MUCH more impact on the earth's natural resources to mine the platinum and other precious metals required to make so many CATs. Very short-sighted, but too many EU bigwigs had vested interests in it and were pushed over by lobbying manufactures.

If someone would please pass the step ladder, I'll get off my high horse now.....!

 

[The Pretender]

Because i'm disappointed in the technical engine upgrades for the 2017 Panda, i created my own preferred fictive "Fiat Panda Lounge S - 120 hp T-Jet".

Fictive upgrades:

# 120 hp 1.4ltr T-Jet engine.
# 6-speed Manual Gearbox.
# disc Brakes all-around.
# lowered sport suspension.
# 5x98 PCD wheel pattern.
# 7Jx16" LM wheels.
# 215/40R16" tires.

And the visual result.

 

[TheR]

Also, the less cylinders you have the less torque you have.
a 1ltr 4 cylinder engine will have more torque then a 1ltr 3 cylinder engine.
No matter both are turbocharged or not.

I don't think that's correct. Engines with bigger bore / longer stroke and less cilinders tend to have more torque. Look at 1 and 2 cilinder motorcycles for example and tractors. I might be wrong though ir maybe I don't understand you correctly.

 

[TheR]

And what really scares me is how development and technology are almost entirely driven by legislation, which is drawn up in the main by idiot politicians and bureaucrats with more drive for their own self-importance and personal financial gain than the good of the planet as a whole. Don't get me wrong, I love my TA engine, but it is fundamentally less planet-saving than the older designs - and I bought it knowing that, regardless.

Look what the EU did when approving CATs as the way forward instead of Lean-Burn technology that was so well thought out and developed by Toyota in the early 90's - inferior tech and MUCH more impact on the earth's natural resources to mine the platinum and other precious metals required to make so many CATs. Very short-sighted, but too many EU bigwigs had vested interests in it and were pushed over by lobbying manufactures.

If someone would please pass the step ladder, I'll get off my high horse now.....!

That's exactly how I think about it
Still do love the TwinAir and the only thing better would be an even stronger TwinAir that would pull a little harder at higher rpm's.
That little engine is the most fun engine in a car I ever had the pleasure of driving along with the 2,5 litre V5 TDI by VW.

 

[gar074]

That little engine is the most fun engine in a car I ever had the pleasure of driving...

It certainly is characterful.

Does everyone else's TA pop and bang (like a short, sharp fart) when you step off the gas when caning it through the gears? Mine turns heads...