Technical Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report

[David Bliss]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

We have finally decided that we cannot cope with the vagaries of our Panda any more. I have already purchased another car (not a Fiat!). It is only a few months old, driving it was such a pleasure after the experience of the last few months. Financially it has been a serious blow, even if our dealer accepts our rejection of the car. The main cause we have given is that the erratic throttle response makes driving hazardous and also makes a nonsense of the 'Learn how to drive it' line that Fiat keeps pushing.

Fiat should have been honest from the start and admitted that there is no fix for the engine, they need to completely redesign it. Given a engine transplant our car could have be a really good one. It was the best handling Fiat I have ever had, but this couldn't compensate for the dreadful engine.

I have been very disappointed at the number of posts on this matter that suggest 'fixes' which have no chance of being effective - just offering a placebo effect and wasting time.

I was also very disappointed that other owners took no notice of my request to complain to VOSA, which meant that my complaint had no chance of success.

 

[Officina red]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

If you don't mind saying , what car did you buy ?

 

[jan500]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

What car did u buy instead? The name of the dealer and location where they accepted the return? Did they pay full price back? With what mileage? Thanks.

 

[David Bliss]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Hi,

It is a 6 month old demonstrator Ford Fiesta Titanium. It is a completely different ball game, streets ahead. No flat spot, no clutch recognition but it will pull away in first gear without using the throttle. It will idle along at a bit less than 5mph at tick-over. You just touch the throttle and it is away with no hesitance. It is definitely quick, and it is such a relief to be driving something that works properly. It has put the fun back into driving for me. It has put a dent in the savings, but I really think its worth it. Just remember that when an engine has been designed properly it doesn't cost any more (in mass production) to produce than a duff one.

 

[auditt]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

I have not given up yet.I have asked Fiat UK to arrange an inspection of the car.When I get time I will be going back to the dealer.

 

[auditt]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

I have read that if the car is on finance that the finance firm has a responsibility to ensure the car is fit for purpose as they supplied it.

 

[jrkitching]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

I have read that if the car is on finance that the finance firm has a responsibility to ensure the car is fit for purpose as they supplied it.

Sadly I think the biggest difficulty you will have will be in proving that your car is not fit for purpose after you've driven more than 6,000 miles in it.

 

[zanes]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

We have finally decided that we cannot cope with the vagaries of our Panda any more. I have already purchased another car (not a Fiat!). It is only a few months old, driving it was such a pleasure after the experience of the last few months. Financially it has been a serious blow, even if our dealer accepts our rejection of the car. The main cause we have given is that the erratic throttle response makes driving hazardous and also makes a nonsense of the 'Learn how to drive it' line that Fiat keeps pushing.

Fiat should have been honest from the start and admitted that there is no fix for the engine, they need to completely redesign it. Given a engine transplant our car could have be a really good one. It was the best handling Fiat I have ever had, but this couldn't compensate for the dreadful engine.

Unfortunately I think rejection is pretty much the only solution whilst FIAT refuse to admit there is a problem. It's worth repeating the advice for new buyers: Insist on a test drive before collecting your new car, and reject on the spot if it has this issue.

My sneaking suspicion is that this whole issue has come about because the FIRE engine is well past it's time and can't really meet modern emission standards. Probably compounded by FIAT not having a particularly economical replacement suitable for base models.

I have been very disappointed at the number of posts on this matter that suggest 'fixes' which have no chance of being effective - just offering a placebo effect and wasting time.

I was also very disappointed that other owners took no notice of my request to complain to VOSA, which meant that my complaint had no chance of success.

I will not comment on this.

 

[Palma500s]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

I don't think rejection is an option full stop. Fiat insist that the cars are ok and that they have passed stringent tests in order to be on the market. It is up to the buyer to try and prove that the car isn't up to standard. An almost impossible task that would involve losing even more money. As I said before the only chance is to pressure the dealer in to accepting some responsibility. They won't give a complete refund but they could give an extra special discount on exchanging the car for another model to compensate.

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

My sneaking suspicion is that this whole issue has come about because the FIRE engine is well past it's time and can't really meet modern emission standards.

I'm sorry, but this really is a load of cobblers. The FIRE engine is a solid and bullet proof engine, hence why it's still used to date. If there is an issue it'll be with the engine control side of things, and most probably ECU mapping, and not the block itself.

 

[David Bliss]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

I agree with Most Easterly Pandas that there is nothing wrong with the original fire engine. It could outperform a lot of others in low rpm torque. The problem is that they have added a long induction manifold which, basically, turns the engine into a fixed speed one that is only good in a limited revs band ie between 3000 and 6500, below this you get air bounce in the manifold. Honda used a long induction manifold to improve top end performance but this has a valve that could shorten the length below a certain rpm for normal, small throttle openings, it also had two inlet valves meaning that it was possible to keep the air speed up as it went through into the cylinders, which improves breathing. It is not possible to do this on an eight valve head, however, unless you are blowing the air/fuel mixture in. Whoever made the alteration to the Fire engine completely messed things up. As far as I can tell the new engine seems to be slightly over-fueling. When I put my car over the rolling road it showed that it had a low air/fuel ratio across the entire range. Is this really green? The engine on my daughter's 09 Panda is streets ahead in this respect.

 

[jrkitching]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

The FIRE engine is a solid and bullet proof engine

Not any more it isn't - a simple cambelt failure on the Euro 5 & Euro 6 variants will likely wreck the engine.

If there is an issue it'll be with the engine control side of things, and most probably ECU mapping, and not the block itself.

If it were that simple, Fiat would likely have fixed it by now.

My sneaking suspicion is that this whole issue has come about because the FIRE engine is well past it's time and can't really meet modern emission standards.

I'd agree.

This engine was at its best in 60HP Euro4 form.

The need to meet Euro 5 emissions standards drove Fiat to make significant hardware changes, most notably increasing the compression ratio & introducing vvt. This had the unwanted effect of moving the power band higher up the rev range, reducing torque, power and flexibility below 3000 rpm. They got a headline power increase from 60 to 69 BHP, but the newer engine actually produces less power where it matters most.

We still don't know what effect this will have on long term reliability, because there are very few Euro5 engines with >100000 miles yet. Certainly the Euro 5 in my 500, with about half the mileage of the Euro 4 in the Panda, sounds like a bag of bolts in comparison.

I still don't know what's been changed on the Euro 6 engine, but I doubt the issues some folks are reporting here can be solved in software.

We're not going to turn the clock back on emissions; IMO Fiat needs a new modern eco engine to take over from the FIRE.

And if you're fortunate enough to have a Euro 4 Panda, look after it; IMO it's one of the best cars Fiat ever made.

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Not any more it isn't - a simple cambelt failure on the Euro 5 & Euro 6 variants will likely wreck the engine.

But that doesn't mean its not bullet proof and well built. How many timing belts fail prematurely? Not many, so if it fails due to lack of scheduled maintenance and takes the engine out then its not the fault of anyone other than the owner / user.

Saying that its no longer any good because its an interference engine is poor

 

[JTD_Liam]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

I've got so tired of seeing this thread still rumbling on that I've sent the following email to Fiat UK:


Dear Sir/Madam

Please see link below and formulate a suitable response to your increasing number of Fiat 500 and Panda customers experiencing problems with this engine:

https://www.fiatforum.com/500/339820-new-1-2-500-throttle-response.html

It is clear there's an issue with at least some of the 1.2 engines used in the 500 & Panda since early 2014 and people are now selling their cars and moving to other brands because of Fiat's woeful response regarding the issue.

The link here http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/fiat/500-2007/?section=good says Fiat have issued a software update to fix the issues on EU6 1.2 engines, but people are being told by dealers that they don't know anything about an update. Why is this?

You're currently selling thousands of 500's in the UK every month if the registration figures are anything to go on, with most of these sales being cars fitted with this engine. Do you expect people to return to Fiat if the engines fitted to their cars are no good and when they query it with Fiat they get the shambolic response being issued thus far, suggesting people need to drive their cars differently?!

Perhaps a statement on the thread above on Fiat Forum would be beneficial?

As a member of a family who've purchased 4 Fiat's and 2 Alfa Romeos, including a brand new 500 and MiTo (thankfully TwinAir not 1.2) I had hoped Fiat were getting better at managing things like this, but the online thread mentioned appears to show otherwise.

Regards


What good it'll do remains to be seen, but Fiat do seem to work in mysterious ways so you never know.

 

[MrDerv]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

I've got so tired of seeing this thread still rumbling on that I've sent the following email to Fiat UK:


Dear Sir/Madam

Please see link below and formulate a suitable response to your increasing number of Fiat 500 and Panda customers experiencing problems with this engine:

https://www.fiatforum.com/500/339820-new-1-2-500-throttle-response.html

It is clear there's an issue with at least some of the 1.2 engines used in the 500 & Panda since early 2014 and people are now selling their cars and moving to other brands because of Fiat's woeful response regarding the issue.

The link here http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/fiat/500-2007/?section=good says Fiat have issued a software update to fix the issues on EU6 1.2 engines, but people are being told by dealers that they don't know anything about an update. Why is this?

You're currently selling thousands of 500's in the UK every month if the registration figures are anything to go on, with most of these sales being cars fitted with this engine. Do you expect people to return to Fiat if the engines fitted to their cars are no good and when they query it with Fiat they get the shambolic response being issued thus far, suggesting people need to drive their cars differently?!

Perhaps a statement on the thread above on Fiat Forum would be beneficial?

As a member of a family who've purchased 4 Fiat's and 2 Alfa Romeos, including a brand new 500 and MiTo (thankfully TwinAir not 1.2) I had hoped Fiat were getting better at managing things like this, but the online thread mentioned appears to show otherwise.

Regards


What good it'll do remains to be seen, but Fiat do seem to work in mysterious ways so you never know.

Worth sending it to Watchdog too. Via a TV audience, there will be more people contacting Fiat (i'm talking people who don't use forums, or indeed the internet).

Power by numbers

 

[zanes]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

I'm sorry, but this really is a load of cobblers. The FIRE engine is a solid and bullet proof engine, hence why it's still used to date. If there is an issue it'll be with the engine control side of things, and most probably ECU mapping, and not the block itself.

Given what other manufacturers are doing to meet the newer standards and maintain drivability (which is rather more than FIATs apparent "mess around with the ECU mapping to some degree") I stand by my argument, which was (emphasis added):

My sneaking suspicion is that this whole issue has come about because the FIRE engine is well past it's time and can't really meet modern emission standards.

What I was saying here is that from an emissions legislation perspective the FIRE engine is old hat. I agree both that the FIRE engine is mechanically sound and well proven and that this probably is a mapping problem (given that no one has any knowledge of significant hardware differences between the EU5 and EU6 1242s), but I suspect that this current problem is an unavoidable result of taking an ancient engine design and trying to meet the new standards.

Put simply, Old engine design+euro 6 compliance=problems. Or, Old engine design + not euro 6 compliant = OK.

Given the lack of progress from FIAT, I suspect they know this is not solvable. Presumably the Twinair unit is too expensive to produce for base models (and doesn't give the needed economy by all accounts- did the N/A version ever make it?) and FIAT haven't investigated some sort of licencing deal for someone else's engine.

What you seem to have taken from it is that I said the FIRE engine is an unreliable pig. I agree my wording could perhaps have been clearer in saying that the FIRE engine can't meet the new emission standards properly (without starting to demonstrate substantial drivability issues as we have here).

For comparison, Suzuki have recently released a new version of their K12 engine as an option on the current swift (the suspicion there is that it's an early "user test" of the new engine which will be fitted to the next gen swifts, much like FIAT did with the early S+S 500s).

The K12 was a brand new engine for the current model swifts (ie. natively Euro 5 compliant, unlike the 1242 FIRE engine which as JR above mentioned had significant changes to become Euro 5 compliant) and this new version (the "dual jet") has significant hardware changes to the cooling system, injection system (two injectors per cylinder and higher injection pressures) and lubrication systems. Presumably this has been done with a view to future proofing the engine/model, as it gives relatively small gains (even on the test cycle) on fuel economy and CO2.

Note that the EU5 K12 makes 94hp, the EU5 FIRE makes 69 whilst being broadly equivalent in economy and emissions.

Clearly Suzuki (and every other manufacturer that has recently launched or announced substantially new small petrol engines and dropped older engines- that's Ford, Vauxhall and Renault off the top of my head) are missing a trick here if all that's needed to produce future proof engines are a few ECU tweaks. Even those that haven't produced "all new" engines are starting with substantially newer "bare" engines than the 1242 FIRE.

TL;DR: Either FIAT is right, or virtually every other car manufacturer is wrong.

 

[zanes]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

I'm sorry, but this really is a load of cobblers. The FIRE engine is a solid and bullet proof engine, hence why it's still used to date. If there is an issue it'll be with the engine control side of things, and most probably ECU mapping, and not the block itself.

But that doesn't mean its not bullet proof and well built. How many timing belts fail prematurely? Not many, so if it fails due to lack of scheduled maintenance and takes the engine out then its not the fault of anyone other than the owner / user.

Saying that its no longer any good because its an interference engine is poor

MEP, with respect, you're totally missing the point here.

No one is saying any of these changes/new standards have made the FIRE engine unreliable. In fact, reliability hasn't come into this thread until you mentioned it.

What JR and myself are saying is that the FIRE engine is past it because, and only because, as this whole sorry farce demonstrates, it apparently can no longer meet modern emission standards whilst maintaining acceptable performance.

In terms of being a simple, easy to maintain, economical (at the pumps) with few known weak points (and no catastrophic ones) it's still, IMHO, up there.

 

[jrkitching]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

But that doesn't mean its not bullet proof and well built. How many timing belts fail prematurely? Not many, so if it fails due to lack of scheduled maintenance and takes the engine out then its not the fault of anyone other than the owner / user.

Saying that its no longer any good because its an interference engine is poor

I'm not saying it's no longer any good (at least not in Euro5 form; I've no personal experience of the latest Euro6; plenty of other folks are saying that's not any good).

But it's no longer as robust as it used to be; and will need to be serviced regularly to make it to the end of its design life.

I wouldn't describe ANY interference engine as bulletproof; the whole point of a bullet proof engine is that, even if neglected, it'll keep running with minimal maintenance. If the original FIRE had coolant & some sort of oil up to the minimum mark on the dipstick, it was essentially indestructible. Not any more - although that doesn't in itself make it a bad engine, and I'm not condoning skimping on maintenance.

What JR and myself are saying is that the FIRE engine is past it because, and only because, as this whole sorry farce demonstrates, it apparently can no longer meet modern emission standards whilst maintaining acceptable performance.

Yes, exactly that.

Another example of a basically solid small engine which went on for too long is the Ford Kent - still used up to (IIRC) about 2004 in the Ka. Bolting electronics, fuel injection & a cat onto the old pushrod design kept it alive, but at a huge cost in economy & emissions - my '79 escort did better than my '02 Ka.

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Out of interest are Ford still using the 1.2 FIRE in the current KA's they're churning out? Have any of these with euro 6 compliance had issues do we know?

 

[jrkitching]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Out of interest are Ford still using the 1.2 FIRE in the current KA's they're churning out? Have any of these with euro 6 compliance had issues do we know?

That's an excellent bit of lateral thinking .

Here is an advert for a current model Ka which (if you scroll down & click through to the technical info/emissions tab) clearly shows it as having a Euro 6 1242 cc 69HP engine.

Interestingly (though off topic), the servicing schedule is completely different. 12500 miles/12 months; cambelt replacement 62500 miles/5 yrs.