Technical Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report

[auditt]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Just tried the same but nothing happens when in neutral,but when I put it in first and lift the clutch the revs rise and you can drive off without pressing the throttle.I then did the same with my foot on the brake and it behaves the same as in neutral ie no rise in revs.

 

[muttleysdad]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

I can verify that I get the rev increase on my 1.2 panda when the clutch is let out. It jumps to approx. 1000 rpm while the car is stationary. If you're in gear and pulling off it rises higher to compensate for the load on the engine.

Interestingly I drove to work in my 08 plate 500 this morning, it had been sat in the garage for nearly 4 weeks so thought I'd better give it a run.

I found I was that used to Panda now I nearly stalled it several times because I wasn't giving enough throttle on pulling off. Funny how you get used to things.

Chris.

 

[Palma500s]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

I have had a very swift reply from Honest John. He has been in contact with Fiat regarding the software update and their reply was as follows:

"This update relates to cold starting and nothing more.
The characteristics of the current engine are directly
related to its EU6 homologation and they won't be altered
by this update. I would be curious to know if the owner
reports an improvement in engine response because the
normal engine programming hasn't changed at all."

Then, "but the Panda owner who had the update has reported
an improvement in overall running."

So at least we are getting some confirmation from Fiat that the problems we are experiencing are due to the changes they have made on the Eu6 engine.
My car is in for testing today with a specialist from Fiat so they have given me a courtesy car which is also a 500s 1.2 (Eu6) manual and it is as bad as mine so I as I mentioned before I believe this affects all Eu6 1.2 manuals.

 

[David Bliss]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

I have had an email from the Panda owner who had the latest ECU update and thinks that it has made a significant difference to the way the engine now responds. I rang the garage he uses (Chipping Sodbury Motor Company), who have kindly given me the update number. It is intended for improved performance between first and second gear, where there are problems. The number is 10-31-14.

No amount of software is going to improve the lack of low-down torque, which is needed for stop start city driving and for hills. This problem is due to changes in the engine itself in the attempt to reduce emissions. You can get the emission details (if you think to ask), but not anything that compares performance with that of earlier model. Whether they have achieved improved emissions in the real world looks doubtful to me, judging from our rolling road test.

Having had several Fiat cars, I never anticipated that the new Pandas would perform so differently, they certainly don't point out that the new car's performance is much lower compared to previous models of the same sized engine.

 

[muttleysdad]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

It's very interesting to note that they've now confirmed this, not sure if it helps though.

On another note, the small tweaks I've be doing to the panda, some posted here and some on the Panda forum, are continuing to ease the problem, And having just come back from an extended holiday in the Yorkshire dales (land of hill starts) I can confirm the car performed as well as my Punto and 500 when I've been up there in them.

1. take out the daylight bulbs and replace with led bulbs, This reduces the constant 100+watt load on the engine at Idle and smooth's out the tick over no end, not sure if this is possible on the 500, on my 08 plate 500 the daylights are the high beam with a big resistor chopped in across them to cut them to half power, makes the engine really chatter on tick over so I leave them permanently turned off. not sure about the newer ones.

2. Change the spark plugs, throw away the really cheap and nasty "one plug fits all" fiat things and replace with either NGK or champion. use the ones stated on the hand book then no warranty problems. The low down power increase is very noticeable.

3. Pull off the small air intake hose from the back of the air filter box, this is the idle running intake and is being severely stifled and possibly even stalls when the main throttle opens. I suspect the increase in revs when the clutch is dropped is controlled here and therefore the more consistent the airflow here the better. Block the spigot where on the air filter box where it was and fit a small hi flow air filter to it the end of the hose. (£4 ebay).

I'm not saying this is the cure, Its very obvious the problem is ECU related however having done this I can quite happily live with the car now.
The end of my drive is about a one in eight slope and I've fallen into the habit of driving the car out on tick over only. probably why I was driving the 500 like a leaner this morning

Interesting on the update number though, I'll ask at the dealer next time I'm there.

Any body in the Derby / Notts area is welcome to a test drive.

Chris

 

[zanes]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

No amount of software is going to improve the lack of low-down torque, which is needed for stop start city driving and for hills. This problem is due to changes in the engine itself in the attempt to reduce emissions.

Has there actually been confirmation that this is the case- i.e. major physical changes to the engine (cam profiles, manifolds etc.) that fundamentally change its characteristics?

I'm not talking about things like the suspected "clutch switch" issue which could be "mapped" around.

It certainly sounds like this new (last week, looking at that number) ECU update is well worth a try.

It is, in any case, laughable that this problem was ever allowed to manifest itself in this manner.

1. take out the daylight bulbs and replace with led bulbs, This reduces the constant 100+watt load on the engine at Idle and smooth's out the tick over no end, not sure if this is possible on the 500, on my 08 plate 500 the daylights are the high beam with a big resistor chopped in across them to cut them to half power, makes the engine really chatter on tick over so I leave them permanently turned off. not sure about the newer ones.

You're talking about saving less than 0.1% of the 1.2's peak power output here. I know that's made at however many thousand rpm but the point still stands. I also don't think the DRLs are anywhere near 50 watt bulbs. Nowhere near.

2. Change the spark plugs, throw away the really cheap and nasty "one plug fits all" fiat things and replace with either NGK or champion. use the ones stated on the hand book then no warranty problems. The low down power increase is very noticeable.

This is good

3. Pull off the small air intake hose from the back of the air filter box, this is the idle running intake and is being severely stifled and possibly even stalls when the main throttle opens. I suspect the increase in revs when the clutch is dropped is controlled here and therefore the more consistent the airflow here the better. Block the spigot where on the air filter box where it was and fit a small hi flow air filter to it the end of the hose. (£4 ebay).

I don't know enough about the setup here to comment. If it doesn't throw an MIL you're probably good to go, although this might prove to be unnecessary with the new update.

 

[Super Uwe]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

I have had an email from the Panda owner who had the latest ECU update and thinks that it has made a significant difference to the way the engine now responds. I rang the garage he uses (Chipping Sodbury Motor Company), who have kindly given me the update number. It is intended for improved performance between first and second gear, where there are problems. The number is 10-31-14.

No amount of software is going to improve the lack of low-down torque, which is needed for stop start city driving and for hills. This problem is due to changes in the engine itself in the attempt to reduce emissions. You can get the emission details (if you think to ask), but not anything that compares performance with that of earlier model. Whether they have achieved improved emissions in the real world looks doubtful to me, judging from our rolling road test.

Having had several Fiat cars, I never anticipated that the new Pandas would perform so differently, they certainly don't point out that the new car's performance is much lower compared to previous models of the same sized engine.

Thanks for finding out the information regarding the update number.

At least you have got somewhere to start now. IMO the best thing for now is to just get the update done and see where it gets you.

Another "quick win" if you like might be to try a few tanks of super unleaded. Now I don't want to start a massive debate on the pros/cons, but from my honest experience in both our old 59 plate 500 1.2 Pop and our 12 plate Panda 1.2 Easy, both cars really did feel spritely pulling away and accelerating up to around 40mph. So it might help here.

The one other thing that I find really odd here are the comments regarding the lack of power on hills. It was a real effort trying to get our old 12 plate Panda to reverse up the drive in our old house, but our old 500 never had this problem at all. So the symptoms sound almost identical. However, I never had any other general problems in the Panda with a lack of torque; it was just on hills. The only way I can describe it is that it never quite felt as though the clutch was engaging properly, does that sound about right?

 

[Ulpian]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

I hope Fiat cures this soon, because dull gutless engines are the anthesis of Fiat motoring.

 

[jrkitching]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

This problem is due to changes in the engine itself in the attempt to reduce emissions.

Having had several Fiat cars, I never anticipated that the new Pandas would perform so differently, they certainly don't point out that the new car's performance is much lower compared to previous models of the same sized engine.

This issue will be more noticeable for folks coming from the Euro4 Panda than for folks coming from the Euro5 500/Panda, simply because the Euro5 engine used in the 500 & late model Mk3 Pandas is already less flexible than the Euro4 FIRE it replaced.

Fiat appear to have used smoke & mirrors to fudge the numbers - the 60HP Euro4 engine actually produces more power where it matters than the newer 69HP Euro5 one.

We still don't know what is physically different with the Euro6 setup, but I'd say the overwhelming balance of probability is that something has changed, even if it is only an additional sensor on the clutch.

If this latest Euro 6 incarnation is the best Fiat can do, then perhaps the time has come to retire the FIRE and design or buy in a new, low emissions eco engine from
scratch.

 

[ahmett]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

This issue will be more noticeable for folks coming from the Euro4 Panda than for folks coming from the Euro5 500/Panda, simply because the Euro5 engine used in the 500 & late model Mk3 Pandas is already less flexible than the Euro4 FIRE it replaced.

Fiat appear to have used smoke & mirrors to fudge the numbers - the 60HP Euro4 engine actually produces more power where it matters than the newer 69HP Euro5 one.

We still don't know what is physically different with the Euro6 setup, but I'd say the overwhelming balance of probability is that something has changed, even if it is only an additional sensor on the clutch.

If this latest Euro 6 incarnation is the best Fiat can do, then perhaps the time has come to retire the FIRE and design or buy in a new, low emissions eco engine from
scratch.

problem is jrkitching to match the new Euro emissions, the engines basically have to be turbocharged = )

 

[jrkitching]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

problem is jrkitching to match the new Euro emissions, the engines basically have to be turbocharged = )

Have you got anything to back this up (specifically for small petrol engines), Ahmett?

That said, I'd agree it's the drive to meet ever more stringent emissions standards that's behind the changes Fiat have made to the FIRE. There's certainly no other justification for putting VVT on this engine.

 

[ahmett]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Have you got anything to back this up (specifically for small petrol engines), Ahmett?

basically from seeing the market that small turbo engines have very low emissions and we hardly see anymore NA engines on the market nowdays except ridiculously small ones like the 3 cylinder 1.0 engines. Fiat already removed the 1.4 Fire engine from its lineup, it only has the 1.2 as an NA engine. BMW, VW, Merc have basically no naturally aspirated engines at all!

 

[David Bliss]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

As far as I know, I am the only owner of an afflicted car to take it to a performance expert to get it tested and get an informed opinion as to whether the torque can be improved. The answer was 'No'. It could be useful to have this data from a number of affected cars.

The engine itself has had significant changes to the camshaft and induction manifold.

There is an awful lot of smoke being generated that is clouding the issue, we need to pull together on this. Fiat do not think there are sufficient complaints being made to drive them to sorting the problem. In my opinion the only cure is an engine transplant, I would rather go back to the engine in my 09 Panda, pay the Road Tax, have lower fuel consumption, and (judging by the rolling road test) have lower emissions.

 

[jrkitching]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

BMW, VW, Merc have basically no naturally aspirated engines at all!

But these are all larger engines. The EA211 engine used in the Up! is a normally aspirated unit.

 

[ahmett]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

But these are all larger engines. The EA211 engine used in the Up! is a normally aspirated unit.

yeah exactly a 1.0 3 cylinder! you call that an engine? haha

 

[jrkitching]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

The engine itself has had significant changes to the camshaft and induction manifold.

But when were these changes made? AFAIK the camshaft & induction changes were made at the time VVT was introduced on the 1.2 Euro5 FIRE; it is only since the change to Euro6 that folks have started complaining about this 'flat spot' issue.

I'd agree with you that the older 60HP unit produces more torque where it matters and is more driveable as a result, but the Euro5 69HP 500 has those camshaft/manifold/compression ratio changes & doesn't have the issue that's being discussed here.

 

[Melanabb]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

With the engine warmed up, hand brake on and in neutral the engine idles at about 850 rpm.
If you depress the clutch and release it slowly the revs increase to 1000rpm. All of this is without touching the accelerator. If you depress and release the clutch quickly then the idling speed remains constant.
As has been mentioned on this forum previously you can actually pull away in first gear (on level ground) just by releasing the clutch without touching the accelerator and the car won't stall.

Just tried the same but nothing happens when in neutral,but when I put it in first and lift the clutch the revs rise and you can drive off without pressing the throttle.I then did the same with my foot on the brake and it behaves the same as in neutral ie no rise in revs.

I can verify that I get the rev increase on my 1.2 panda when the clutch is let out. It jumps to approx. 1000 rpm while the car is stationary. If you're in gear and pulling off it rises higher to compensate for the load on the engine.


Chris.

I have a different engine (1.4 6 speed turbo in Grande Punto Abarth '10 plate) and had always had this behaviour. Idle at around 850RPM (inc. neutral), first gear - it will increase to 1000RPM and pull away by itself (without me touching accelerator). I do not have problem with hill starts but that can be explained by hill holder. I don't know how relevant this is to the owners of affected 500 but I thought to mention it...

 

[zanes]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

I'm still standing by my "go and get the ECU update done" comment.

 

[jrkitching]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

I'm still standing by my "go and get the ECU update done" comment.

Yup.

Install the latest drivers before trying to troubleshoot the hardware.

 

[jrkitching]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

From the honestjohn site:

Only four complaints? Sounds low.

Well, that's a joke - there are already more independent posts from folks complaining on this site alone.

Idle at around 850RPM (inc. neutral), first gear - it will increase to 1000RPM and pull away by itself (without me touching accelerator).

Thanks Mel, that's given me a better way of trying to explain what I think is going on here.

Any modern car should be able to do this - the ECU will increase the fuelling to compensate for the increased load on the engine as you release the clutch when in gear - with care, I can get my old 1.2 all the way into 3rd gear without touching the go pedal.

What is different here is that the idle rpm is increasing with the car in neutral as the clutch pedal is slowly released. This implies that the ECU is increasing the fuelling as a direct consequence of lifting the clutch pedal, as opposed to sensing an increase in engine load.

The elephant in the room is that there appears to be a new interaction between the clutch & the ECU, which is only present on the Euro 6 cars. Now I've absolutely no evidence for this, but I'm wondering if the actual position of the clutch biting point (which obviously will be slightly different from car to car and will change as the clutch wears) may make the issue more noticeable on some cars than others.

Despite 300 posts on the topic in this thread alone, we still don't have any confirmation of what hardware & software changes were made with the introduction of the Euro 6 engine. Judging by the posts we're getting about dealer responses, I'd say Fiat know more about this than is currently being made public.