Technical ESP off

[Gardin]

Hi...
I have a 100HP with ESP, and I'm trying to find out
if it can be turned off in any way. I know the obvious
answer, that it can't. But does anybody know, if
you can remove a fuse, from the fusebox without
interferring with the ABS and other systems? In early
ESP days you could do this, to test the car but now
it seems all systems are locked together. I don't want
to kill the ABS again, after trying that on my Seicento.

Now that the standard fitted Good Year Eagle F1 has
stopped production, what do you think would be a good
replacement? I'm thinking about Yokohama S-drive, but
there are not many to choose from...

 

[Dan Friel]

Suspect that it's all connected with the ABS and you can't isolate. Was thinking about it myself as planning on doing a hillclimb later in the summer. Disconnecting the ASR makes a big difference, try that if you haven't already.

Tyres. Running Vredestein Sportrac 3s at the moment, and rate them very highly. Never seen a bad review either.

 

[trackdayqueen]

I ran S-Drives for around 18 months. Good tyre, preferred them over the F1s as the sidewalls are a bit stiffer. They give better grip in the dry and similar in the wet to the F1's, I reckon they let go sooner but they are nicely progressive. I had a bit more fun in the wet.

I made sure I bought a car without ESP and all that stuff so I wouldn't have that problem, but to be fair the 100hp isn't a car that you can slide much and you can't steer it on the throttle, has more grip than power really. So I don't think you are missing that much.

 

[lewey]

If you want to disable abs/traction/esp all together for a short time, like a trackday or hill climb, just pull the big electrical plug out of the abs pump. You will have full power all the time. I don't know if you lose rrpm gauge with ESP models though. Speedo will not register.

You can't isolate the abs from the other assistance features though.

 

[lewey]

Further thoughts. You could eliminate the ESP and retain ABS functionality by unplugging the sensors that detects sideways and longitudinal movement for the ESP/ABS ECU. It stands to reason that the car won't be able to trigger events with a "broken" sensor. What effect this has on the driving experience in terms of power delivery, etc I don't know. It may only eliminate some of the ESP operation, but possibly all. According to a diagram I have, there is one sensor between the front seats (probably under console) and one on the floor behind the front left seat possibly under carpet.

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

I'm not sure if its the same on the Panda's, but with the Stilo, with a registered version for Fiat ECUscan you can re-configure the ABS system to what you want to function or not (turn ABS off, ESP on, and visa versa).

The other advantage of this also is as its a configuartion setup in the software you get no warning lamps

 

[Gardin]

Thanks for all your answers, I will look further into it. I have a Seicento with 82 Hp and on 14" inch Saxo Cup slicks on, it was still no problem getting it sideways on tracks. I want my Panda to handle the same way and I think the standard car is a much better starting point than a standard Seicento. When I'm familiar with the Panda the next step must be Nürburgring and I won't have ESP cutting in destroying all the fun. If I could, I would have bought it without ESP, but in Denmark that is just not possible unless I imported it myself.

 

[trackdayqueen]

I honestly found the Panda hard to get sideways, you really had to be brutal to do it. Even at higher speeds it's not a car that you can really balance on the throttle. I've no idea what a Sei' is like though as I've never driven one.

 

[Nathan126]

A sideways Sei? Mine would go in a straight line on corners

Whatever you did, i'd agree with TDQ.

 

[Gardin]

I you have a hard time getting sideways, you're not going fast enough. We're talking small FIAT's here, not Formula 1 cars, offcourse you can get it to loose grip... Look at my photos, then you see my cars and setup. I like the backend to be a little loose, so it helps the turn in with lift off and you then balance it on the throttle, but it's not everyones taste. I just can't stand understeer. The old Panda's understeer like nothing else, and take some serious hard work to get sideways without using the handbrake, but when it happens it's quite fun.

 

[trackdayqueen]

I know it can be done, I've done it. But, the 100hp loves understeer. Maybe if you pump up the rear tyres a fair bit that'd help, but it doesn't have the power or balance (if I'm honest) to steer the car on the throttle. I took mine round Anglesey a few months ago. Just to be honest, it was frankly rubbish. Unless you use the handbrake all it wanted to do was understeer. Lifting off had virtually no effect, trail braking is difficult because you lift an inside front wheel which activates the ABS.

I wasn't talking F1 cars either. So, sure you can get them sideways, but IMHO it just isn't worth the effort. I tried a few techniques (though didn't use the handbrake) going round Angers coastal circuit but it was only any good (when I say 'any good' I'm being kind) round Church which you could take flat out if you got the turn in right. Then it would do the pogo-ing on the loaded side, still no oversteer, but it felt kind of fun.

My conclusion having driven a lot of cars on track is that it's not worth the effort.

I've got a well setup AE86 now and that doesn't do understeer, it just does oversteer, lift off, power oversteer etc on command. You can drift it to your hearts content. So, in summary I'd say use a car that is actually any good in the first place and IMO the 100hp just isn't when it comes to trackwork.

 

[Gardin]

I have yet to own a car, I can't setup to drive to my liking. I started with Uno's and Ritmo's (Strada to you) and they all ended up tail happy little cars. The only difference here, is the electronics. Take a look at the tests of the 100HP and you'll see they slide nicely without ESP which is also the feeling I had since my first test drive. I'm going to use 14" semi slicks for trackdays by the way, what tires do you run for trackday use?

 

[trackdayqueen]

I have had a look at all the tests and I have never heard them being described as a car you can 'slide nicely' or even dream about steering on the throttle. and I've spent 2.5 years driving one. They don't slide at all really. The 100hp has a huge amount of grip, beyond that the limits of the chassis become apparent.

I think with 14" semi slicks (I am guessing you are thinking 888's etc) it'll slide even less if at all.

Last time I tracked my 100hp it was on S-Drives. For trackwork, depending upon wheel size, I do like Yoko Advan Neova LTS. I never use 888's because I don't like lots of grip, I like my cars to move around a bit. The 100hp was hands down the worse I've had for doing that!

On other cars I used to use A539s as they weren't all that grippy. But tbh I've tried a fair few different tyres in ten years of trackdays.

Maybe you've met your nemesis with this one!

 

[Gardin]

Nope, I'll prove you wrong. A standard Panda 1,2 without ESP can slide nicely so surely the 100HP will do the same if that damn ESP will stay out of it. About tires, I have 14" yokohama slicks at the moment and I'm thinking about several different semi slicks for it, but I have always liked yokohama so maybe 195/50-15 A048 or Avon makes the zzr in 195/45-15 and then the Toyo R888 also in 50 profile, but I don't really know if it's any good. But my first idea was to get rid of the 14" slicks and get 185/60-14 A048. I have 195/45-15 Yokohama A539 on my Superleggera's now and they are more for comfort than grip, but they have to go because they're old now. So I guess it's going to be the S-drive's that replaces them... I miss the A520 I had on the Seicento, because they gripped like no road tyre I ever tried... I have pictures on my com by the way, of some serious sliding 100HP's from Netherlands, Italy and Bulgaria...

 

[trackdayqueen]

Okay prove me wrong.

I know you can get them to slide, but the car never wants to. It's underpowered for the grip. With A048's I'm not sure it'll be possible to have any fun as it will just be a case of driving flat out everywhere.

A520 is a very old tyre (we are talking late 90's).

I just honestly (and I don't mean to put the 100hp down here) think that the 100hp is just no good for trackwork. I'd just get something else that will be lots more fun and do the job so much better.

Obviously you takes your choices and I hope you enjoy it. I've been lucky ehough to have driven lots of different cars on track. The 100hp is not one I'd choose for sure. I'm not being RWD bias here either, I had a DC2 and that was in another galaxy in respect of handling compared to the 100hp. Yes I know the 100hp is a cheap car, fair enough, but trackwork is all about handling and balance and the 100hp is lacking in that department when you start pushing it.

Give us a link to your site then, I CBA to work out it out for myself.

 

[Gardin]

I don't follow your views on power to grip ratio at all. A Cinquecento with 54 hp will slide on semi slicks no problem at all, surely it's not a matter of horsepower! I have raced my old Panda 750L on A048's and there could be a hint of what you're on about, since I took corners flat out instead of breaking, like I need to in my other cars. I won trophys in my Seicento and beaten cars like Lotus Esprit S3, Ford Escort Cosworth, BMW M3 E36, Delta Integrale's both 8 and 16v, Nissan 200SX tuned and many more. That said, it is on a very twisty track in Sweden called Sturup, and it was before they rebuild it for touring cars, so there was no real straight, just a hell of a lot of sharp to medium bends. I loose it all on the straights of course since i only have 82 hp for 840 kg, but the suspension setup makes all the difference. I everything goes as you say, which I seriously don't think, I'll run slicks at the front and street tires on the back, that worked on the Uno and made it oversteer just enough so it balanced nicely...

 

[trackdayqueen]

I've never been overly power hungry, for example my AE86 is probably around the 140bhp mark and weighs in at 970kg.

But I admit I wouldn't consider cars with much less because you do need some power to have fun. In the 100hp it had more grip than power and is set up to understeer. You can probably improve the situation by running narrower tyres, pumping up the rears and running parallel toe or toe out.

When you say 'raced' what exactly do you mean? Racing to me means racing in a series with other cars on the track at the same time.

I've done lots and lots of trackdays and I've gone past Lamborghinis', Ferrari's. You name it I've overtaken it, but it doesn't mean my car is good do does it really?

That you were on a tight twisty circuit driving flat out because you had so much grip will play into your hands. I wouldn't call that fun though.

Having fun is a lot about going sideways and playing with the angle at which you hold the car. Also steering on the throttle and being able to finely adjust the angle of the car in either a 4 wheel drift for speed or a bit more sideways for fun, is really IMO where all the fun is. The 100hp doesn't cut it in that respect.

If you really want to have fun and it has to FWD, just buy a DC2 is just perfect out of the box. Failing that buy something that is RWD and has an LSD and you can expect lots of fun.

 

[LeanMeanRacing]

When you say 'raced' what exactly do you mean? Racing to me means racing in a series with other cars on the track at the same time.

Have you never competed in sprint events?

 

[trackdayqueen]

Have you never competed in sprint events?

No. Only racing. Personally I don't see it as worth it in many ways, given the cost and time and layouts, trackdays represent better value IMO. Plus my fiance can enjoy it too.

 

[LeanMeanRacing]

I can see your point as you don't get a lot of circuit time during a sprint event. But it is a very pure form of motorsport - just you and your car against the clock with little margin for error.