General Engine will not start after 2 weeks standing.

[blu73]

should be ok... and yeah i see where you are coming form with the relay. Electric has never been my strong point, I openly admit that, just not had one of them relays fail in so many cars, but i guess they are only getting older so its possible particularly if there is a hole for moisture.

TDC wise, it should be transferable from a mk2 i think, certainly i know that a cinq or sei or any mk1 apart from gt and 1.6 sporting works and the mk2 pretty much is same engine when it comes to bottom end.

 

[Pauljoanss]

Update:
Did not get very far with my plan to link relay contacts. Took note of all wires on relay socket but could make no sense of any of it. Some wires missing on what I thought were key terminals and some very thin wires on what I thought were power terminals, in short I just could not make sense of it so not sure what terminals to links.
However I did have some sort of breakthrough! There had always been lots of talk about the blue fuse holder and I remembered that last time I checked this for voltage it was low, around 6V. Played around a bit and suddenly the live fuse terminal showed voltage of 12V, I then replaced the fuse and simultaneously heard a loud click from the relay. I then checked coil voltage and it showed 12v (previously 0v). With great excitement I went to turn the ignition key but it was in that state that it had to be turned off before starting, no joy. Went back to check voltage on fuse and it was down again to around 4v which I assume was due to it being turned off before starting was attempted. Light fading so had to stop, unfortunately I cannot recall the exact sequence of events before the 12 V was present at the fuse. Tomorrow with play about a bit more and try to recreate the circumstances which gave 12V, it may have been a chance good switching of a dodgy relay or some dodgy wiring which made good contact when I moved it around, whatever it was then I should be able to repeat the event.
Hope this is not too boring, but you do not have to read it all.

 

[Pauljoanss]

Important finding:
I have now found that when ignition first turned on, the relay clicks and the full 12 v can be found at both the blue fuse and at the coils. After approx 2 sec the relay clicks again and the blue fuse goes back to 4.6v while the coil voltage goes to zero.
I suspect the system is going thro a check period, it finds a fault, so turns off. Any ideas what sort of faults it could be detecting.:idea:

 

[hf turbo]

Crank sensor will sense where the engine is. If it's not in position I.e sensor not working you'll never get it to run no matter how much fuel you've got. Find out why you have no spark first

Is your code light on in the dash?

 

[Pauljoanss]

Code light is not on, assuming bulb ok. Injection red symbol warning light always on when ignition on.
I do not believe the crank sensor is playing any part in the problem since I have no voltage on the coils, hence no spark can be created, whatever the crank sensor is up to.
Still waiting for white ignition relay, due Monday and have also ordered cables for scanning ECU, need to sort software but understand free.

 

[hf turbo]

When you get you diagnostic equipment check for a signal to the rpm sensor if you got nothing then it's crank sensor

If the ecu is not sensing where the engine is it won't send power to the coil pack as there is no point firing in the middle of the wrong cycle

 

[blu73]

the 'injection symbol' is just the engine management light, it should come on and then go out when you turn ignition on. If it stays one the ecu can see an active fault - will be a code stored..
Worth having the stuff to read and clear codes tbh, only a few quid for cables and can get IAW-Scan2 for free, google search will find. If you are anywhere near the Forest-of-Dean you can borrow my cables.

 

[Pauljoanss]

If the ecu is not sensing where the engine is it won't send power to the coil pack as there is no point firing in the middle of the wrong cycle

Sorry to disagree with your statement but my understanding is that there should be continuos power to the coil pack when engine is stationary, regardless of crank sensor and engine position. Rotation of the engine produces pulses from the crank sensor which in turn are feed to the coils as Earth pulses creating correctly timed sparks. If I am wrong then I welcome correction.

 

[Pauljoanss]

the 'injection symbol' is just the engine management light, it should come on and then go out when you turn ignition on. If it stays one the ecu can see an active fault - will be a code stored..
Worth having the stuff to read and clear codes tbh, only a few quid for cables and can get IAW-Scan2 for free, google search will find. If you are anywhere near the Forest-of-Dean you can borrow my cables.

Many thanks I have ordered them on eBay, only £8 but from US so delivery could be couple of weeks. This gives me time to source a laptop and the software.

 

[blu73]

here you go fella

http://iaw-scan2.sourceforge.net/

 

[Pauljoanss]

Update: received new (used) White relay, fitted and tested with no improvement. Clicks noises and timings exactly the same as old one so fairly confident it was working. Will properly test when Punto up and running then can resell on EBay as fully tested.
Now waiting on cables for diagnostics, away soon so no action for a couple of weeks but I WILL post results.

 

[blu73]

still think it will just be the crank sensor tbh - need to check for fuel properly by either the looking down the throttle body technique or just turning it over for a while and then whipping out a plug to see if its dry.

 

[Pauljoanss]

Thanks Blue73 for your continued interest.
First ref the TDC sensor, my original shows a resistance of 1.28 K ohms between the Center pin and one of the outside pins, no connection with either of these two pins and the third outside one.
I have also tried another TDC from scrap yard taken from a MK 2, someone here said they are the same. This shows 1.18 K ohms between same pins. From this info I feel the TDC sensor has been eliminated. Is this good enough or do I need to try a brand new sensor?

Ref fuel, there is fuel being pumped to TB but hard for me to see any on cranking because on my own. No sign of any on spark plug after cranking, also no response at all from spraying Easy Start directly into TB.

To recap, no spark at plug and no voltage on coils after the first 2 sec of turning ignition on, full 12v on coils for first couple of seconds before click from relay. Tried new (used) relay and clicking pattern exactly the same.

My analysis is that the ECU is detecting a fault and then "closing down" the complete system, so no fuel and no spark may not be the root cause but the consequence of the ECU "closing down". I therefore feel the logical way forward is to obtain cables to enable interrogation of the ECU.
I very much welcome any comment on this logic.

 

[blu73]

well as far as i know the only thing that would prevent the ecu to fire both plugs and injector is a failed crank sensor (or crank sensor wiring) unless its multiple problems..

I have used the junk yard sensor technique to test this myself but you can't guarantee they are going to work so I have always grabbed several at once.

 

[Pauljoanss]

Ok, I give in, have ordered new TDC Sensor on EBay. Only Mk2s available at Breakers so thought best to be sure.
So many times I have been told it is most likely to be the TDC sensor that I would look very stupid if that was how it turned out.
Risk is small because I can always resell if not required. Not expected to arrive before I go away so will be couple of weeks before any progress, should have both cables and Sensor when I get back.

 

[blu73]

watch me have to eat my words now lol... but really if it doesn't fix it i would just put it away somewhere safe - you will need it eventually lol.

 

[Pauljoanss]

New TDC sensor arrived quicker than expected, definitely the correct part, in box with part number and part number also moulded into casing. Checked pins very similar as before with 1.09 K ohms between center and outer pin, no connection with the other outer pin.
Fitted and tested, no result. Measuring voltage at coils, same as before, 12v for about 2 secs then click from relay and then zero voltage. Also noted that hum from pump also stopped at the same time as click from relay (cause or effect?).
Now waiting on cable for scan of ECU but starting to feel a bit dispondent and already planning next move as not sure if I will ever get to the bottom of this.:bang:
Plan B, ring AA and get taken to Fiat garage where I would have pre negotiated a cost for basic analysis (of course assuming AA cannot fix). Have not called AA before because 2 years ago thought it would save money on Home Start to use my address for the AA, so when it broke down at its real home, 1 mile away, we could claim it was away from home. Will have to tow back before calling AA.

 

[guacamole]

This must be driving you mad. Here's a thought!
Have you got a spare ignition key........if so try it. It just could be that the key you are using to try to start is faulty. The immobiliser cuts the fuel after a second if the chip in the key isn't recognised. The engine will turn over but will not fire. If the dash has a padlock symbol orange light, check it goes out after turning the key. If it doesn't there may be your problem. It happened to me and many others. The spare ignition key often works fine. I don't want to introduce a new problem. But, its well worth checking this theory out. All too often the chip in the key just stops working. Result....dead car. Unless you have a spare key. Godddddddddd luck anyway.

 

[blu73]

Well thats a ballache, was pretty convinced it would be that.. hey-ho, as i said before, you have a spare now.

The pump primes then stops, just builds pressure and then sits and waits for the to start before running again so more likely nothing wrong there..

If it was immobilizer issue then the code light would come on and stay on, so unless thats happening then its not that either.. Code comes on and then goes out when you switch ignition on.

Chin up dude, the wires will arrive and then you will have a way to see what the ecu thinks is wrong, really is best starting point if the light is staying on. Don't give in, you can fix this! When you get them (any idea of how long til they arrive?) plug it in and note any codes.. But i suggest you then clear all active and stored codes and disconnect and reconnect the program as some codes maybe old and confusing matters - bit of luck you will get one definitive code returned.

Whereabouts do you hail from anyway, perhaps there is a local member with cables you can borrow to save waiting.

 

[varesecrazy]

New TDC sensor arrived quicker than expected, definitely the correct part, in box with part number and part number also moulded into casing. Checked pins very similar as before with 1.09 K ohms between center and outer pin, no connection with the other outer pin.
Fitted and tested, no result. Measuring voltage at coils, same as before, 12v for about 2 secs then click from relay and then zero voltage. Also noted that hum from pump also stopped at the same time as click from relay (cause or effect?).
Now waiting on cable for scan of ECU but starting to feel a bit dispondent and already planning next move as not sure if I will ever get to the bottom of this.:bang:
Plan B, ring AA and get taken to Fiat garage where I would have pre negotiated a cost for basic analysis (of course assuming AA cannot fix). Have not called AA before because 2 years ago thought it would save money on Home Start to use my address for the AA, so when it broke down at its real home, 1 mile away, we could claim it was away from home. Will have to tow back before calling AA.

where are you / the car based..??,
Charlie - Oxford