Technical Engine Compression

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Technical Engine Compression

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Been working on a 1981 Turbo Spider (Turbo removed) barn find for a while. Did a compression test and got readings of 118, 115,110,95. Did the test with the engine cold , all plugs removed and held the accelerator to the floor. Plugs have been pretty oily and car runs rough at low rpm. I have changed a lot of external engine parts and I'm pretty sure I don't have any vacuum leaks. Car was sitting in storage for 15 years . I changed the fuel pump filter but I am about to change the fuel pump and another filter. My question is are the compression readings I got telling me the problem with lack of power is from an internal engine issue. Oh the engine does not smoke and has no leaks. Appreciate any help
 
I see that no one has responded, so far.
You have performed your compression test in exactly the correct manner.
I do not have exact figures in front of me, jiminnella, but I am going to guess that your #4 cylinder is leaking compression fairly significantly - I believe that all of your compression readings should be within 10 -15%. And, I know that my rebuilt 2 liter has about 140lb compression on each cylinder.
I believe that this engine has seen significant wear and probably needs rebuild.
I believe that you can add about a tablespoon of oil to a cylinder, and if the compression reading increases, then the valve seals are at fault. Otherwise it's the seal at the rings. Perhaps that will help you diagnose what you need to do next.
Best of luck with your Spider! I sure hope you can get it back to the little powerhouse that it can be!
One more piece of advice,...check out fiatspider.com forum, and mirafiori.com forums.
Todd.
 
I see that no one has responded, so far.
You have performed your compression test in exactly the correct manner.
I do not have exact figures in front of me, jiminnella, but I am going to guess that your #4 cylinder is leaking compression fairly significantly - I believe that all of your compression readings should be within 10 -15%. And, I know that my rebuilt 2 liter has about 140lb compression on each cylinder.
I believe that this engine has seen significant wear and probably needs rebuild.
I believe that you can add about a tablespoon of oil to a cylinder, and if the compression reading increases, then the valve seals are at fault. Otherwise it's the seal at the rings. Perhaps that will help you diagnose what you need to do next.
Best of luck with your Spider! I sure hope you can get it back to the little powerhouse that it can be!
One more piece of advice,...check out fiatspider.com forum, and mirafiori.com forums.
Todd.
Todd your exactly right. Its cylinder # 4 that is the lowest. I will try the oil in the cylinder suggestion and hope for the best. The car shows 64000 miles which I believe to be accurate. It was sitting for years prior to me finding it. Thanks for your reply.
 
Todd your exactly right. Its cylinder # 4 that is the lowest. I will try the oil in the cylinder suggestion and hope for the best. The car shows 64000 miles which I believe to be accurate. It was sitting for years prior to me finding it. Thanks for your reply.
Todd made a slight error.

Adding a little oil helps the piston rings seal better so if the compression increases to the near/required balance compression values of the other cylinders then it is the piston ring seals / bore that are responsible for the lower pressure. If the oil makes no difference then it is the valves. If the oil makes some but insufficient difference then it is both.

A teaspoon of oil is only 5ml. I would us at least 1cc / 10ml but no more than 2cc / 20ml.
 
Thanks, I was happy but it seems I am now a little confused. Added the oil and got the following compression readings _ 156, 160, 155 and 148. Based on the last post it sounds like it isn't the valve seals and more likely the piston rings?? I also noticed the spark plug hole for the cylinder with the lowest compression (nearest the fire wall) was only letting the plug to get 2/3 of the way down. Going to rethread so I can get it all the way in. Thinking that could be effecting the lack of low end power I'm getting. Really appreciate the responses. I think with one more bit of guidance I will know enought to make a plan.
Assuming I'm eventually looking at an engine rebuild does anyone know of a good shop to do our older Fiats near Winston Salem NC or North Carolina in general.
Thanks
 
Hi,

You said this car was laying up for 15 years but you haven't said how much running of the engine has been done since you got it started or whether it has been driven on the road? When an engine has been unused for a long time, various things can go wrong which may resolve themselves with a bit of use.
There used to be a term used 'Italian Engine Tune-Up', which essentially was a fast drive to 'blow away the cobwebs', this often worked but should be undertaken with caution and only after verifying that the engine is still in good condition i.e. good oil pressure, no coolant leaks etc.
Bear in mind, the car will have been taken out of use for some reason - there may have been some issue e.g. leaking head gasket/low oil pressure etc. and is unlikely to have been prepared for storage e.g. oil/filter/coolant changes, oil down cylinder bores (or 'fogging'/corrosion inhibition oil).

Your initial compression readings were low, your later readings (with some oil down the cyl. bores) were imho quite acceptable and unlikely to be improved much, even with a full engine rebuild. I've a lot of experience on the Fiat twin cam engines and always counsel against unnecessary rebuilds, preferring to try to work with what's there without incurring major work/expense.

Think about this - how much use will this car get in future? will it be a daily driver or only be used occasionally for short runs? If an engine is fully rebuilt/overhauled, it could take maybe 20,000 miles before it has freed up enough to give of it's best.

As an alternative, and only if the existing engine can't be made to run well while still in the car - these engines respond well to an 'engine refresh' i.e. deglaze bores, new piston rings, new crank bearings, lap in the valves and fit new valve stem oil seals but of course, the labor needed will be almost as much as on a full engine rebuild. However, given your engine has covered 64,000 miles, it might need more work, depends on amount of wear present.

My advice at this point in time would be to try to free up any sticking piston rings. Fiat used to use (I'm not sure if this applies to your engine) an unusual one piece oil-control ring which had slots for oil drainage and spaced 1/2 way vertical cuts alternating between top and bottom to give flexibility, this type used to become gummed up quite badly, but if cleaned up, worked just fine again.

I used to turn the crank until all pistons were midway up the cyl. bores and pour a couple of teaspoons of diesel/kerosene down the bores and leave to soak in for a few days, rocking the crank occasionally (this way will result in the oil ideally needing to be changed afterwards). Nowadays there are various more suitable substances to use to free-up gummed piston rings - in the U.S. I've heard of 'Marvel mystery oil' or 'Seafoam' being used, but I've no personal experience of these, so you'd have to search online for info and how best to use.

Obviously the spark plug thread issue needs to be sorted out to allow the spark plug to seal correctly, for reasons of good compression, heat transfer etc. No.4 plug thread is a tricky one to deal with not just because of access but also because it's angled towards the firewall. It's easy to do with the cyl. head off the car but not at all easy in situ. I prefer to utilise an old spark plug with a couple of saw grooves lengthways along the threads to try to clean up the threads - it's a lot gentler than using a thread cutting/restoring tap and easier to turn in the No.4 plug's location. Bear in mind that if the existing No.4 spark plug is only going in 2/3 of the way and is now tight, it may have been cross-threaded/gone in at an incorrect angle.
Should a thread insert be the only remaining solution, you'll probably have to remove the cylinder head because of the poor access. This might actually be a good move as it will allow you to renew the head gasket (at 64,000 mls it might nearing failure anyway), check on bore condition, lap-in the valves (if you wish after checking them for poor sealing e.g. using some kerosene in the combustion chambers with the head upside down - but I doubt there's much wrong with your valves given your compressions readings) and fit new valve stem oil seals (well worth doing any time the cyl. head is off).

Last piece of advice - as you haven't mentioned it - it would be a good idea to renew the timing belt, these engines are interference type, so if the belt breaks, valves will be damaged. Some people delay changing the belt until they have the engine running correctly, then take the car 'just for a short test drive' and the belt lets go :cry: .... Even if you just fit a new belt, it's good insurance - the new belt can be re-used e.g. if you have to remove the cyl. head in the near future. It's straightforward to renew, there's timing marks already present and no special tools are needed.

Hth,

Alan 🇮🇪
 
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Thats a lot of info but I really appreciate it. When I bought the car it had sat as the owner had past away years ago and the family just let it sit in storage.I own an 83 also which is in excellent condition. I often used that car as a template when working on the 81. I do believe the car was in good running condition when put away ( thats what the family remembered??). I didn't even know if the engine was seized when I towed it out of the barn. After a "typical"preperation for a car that has sat a long time it started right up. I have driven the car four or five times for about three to five miles each time. As I did most of the mechanical restoration already I think I'll drive it as suggested. Maybe the Italian tune up will help. Thanks again to all that replied.
 
Great advice being given by Alan above. His approach involving freeing off the rings on an engine which has sat for some time using diesel is excellent. I also like the "slitted" spark plug idea. I've used one for years and it's much less likely to cause damage where access is difficult compared to using a dedicated tap which can be cross threaded and cause more damage. Sat for 15 years? I'd have changed the belt before going anywhere near trying to start it! Finally, if you're doing more than just a one off and are likely to need to check engine condition from time to time on different vehicles then I can strongly recommend buying a cylinder leakdown tester, like this: https://www.onbuy.com/gb/uk-petrol-...BWQrTM_6csQ5-2q9WL6TZWHSVXL7v5TUaAg_pEALw_wcB They are commonly available for under £20 on ebay and, once you get into using one, it's a very handy tool indeed for diagnosing exactly the sort of thing we've got here.

Good luck with "reawakening" your car and do keep us informed of any interesting developments please?
 
^^ o_O
No disrespect and not trying to be a 'Smart Alan' but I think you'll find that 1cc = 1ml.

Alan 🇮🇪
Oops, indeed. Not sure how I got that one wrong. Think I was visualizing quantity in cc and then visualizing a small 1ml syringe and think more require :)

Thanks for correcting my error.
 
Oops, indeed. Not sure how I got that one wrong. Think I was visualizing quantity in cc and then visualizing a small 1ml syringe and think more require :)

Thanks for correcting my error.
I'm back. still working on the restoration. Its going pretty well. One last follow up question regarding my engine compression. I did the test again after putting the oil in the cylinders. I did the compression test cold with the accelerator to the floor and the numbers in all four cylinders jumped up to between 145 and 155. I thought that meant the valve guide seals might be bad, or maybe the piston rings, but a local mechanic told me I fixed the issue by lubricating the cylinder walls which increased the compression. I know I should do another test without adding oil to the cylinders but I guess I am afraid the numbers will drop back down and I'm back to an engine build. Anyone out there have a "for sure" explanation of what I am dealing with. As always, really appreciate all your help and advise.
 
It could have been that the bores were dirty / light rust and the piston rings / oil scraper ring were dry and not sitting correctly. The rings are designed to float and rotate so if they are seized then this can affect compression but not always.

If the engine runs (safely) then I would put some more oil in the cylinders, plugs back and then run the engine at idle till the radiator fan cuts in. I would then take the plugs out and do a HOT compression test (NO oil). Then let the engine cool to cold. The do a COLD compression test (NO OIL) and then COLD again with some oil.

Tedious pain to do but at least you will have all the data/results you need.

There is a school of thought that as with all classic cars 100% perfection/performance with engine vitality is not a major concern. What some people go by is does it drive OK for my purposes, does it burn too much oil and depending on age does it pass MOT HC (hydrocarbon) levels.

On the MOT side then your 1981 Spider may be MOT exempt but I would not advise anybody who is not competent or does not have their vehicle maintained and checked by a professional VAT registered mechanic to go down this route.
 
jiminnella, I can empathize with your anxiety over this as I, like you I suspect, like things to be "perfect". However I think you're never going to know about this one unless you strip the engine? On the other hand, from what you are saying, it seems to be running quite nicely? No knocking bearings or signs of a "limp" tickover such as would result from an excessively low compression on that cylinder? As people have implied already in this thread, notably Alan 124BC1, engines will often not respond well to enforced periods of idleness so I think taking it for a nice long drive, couple of hours perhaps of mixed conditions, but with at least one good run on the open road, and then see how a hot compression test comes out. A bit of wear on rings, compression rings especially, can often have more influence on cold pressures because the ring gap will close up somewhat at running temperature. If I see good results from a hot test I wouldn't be worrying too much about the cold figure - as long as they are not "silly" of course. I'm a big fan of leak down testers for this sort of thing, but in the absence of one, doing the "oil test" works pretty well.

For those reading who don't know what this is:- Remove all spark plugs and introduce a wee bit of oil through the spark plug hole, this needs to be enough to properly "wet" around the top lands of the piston and down the sides. With ignition disabled, a brief spin over of the engine with a rag over the SP hole to distribute the oil and eject excess. This helps with a lot of modern engines where the piston has a concave piston top so the oil may lie in this depression and not dribble under gravity to the outside of the piston crown. Then install the compression tester, hold the throttle butterfly fully open and spin the engine over until no increase in pressure is seen on the tester dial. This is critical and is where many people make problems for themselves. There needs to be no restriction to air entering the cylinder - like a closed throttle butterfly or seriously clogged air filter - and watch the way the pressure builds as you can sometimes learn something from this. Typically it'll be a big jump on the first stroke, maybe around a third or more of the max achieved on the first pulse with subsequent pulses giving steadily decreasing jumps until it pretty much stabilizes at a max reading. Once the pressure effectively stops increasing that's the pressure for that cylinder, don't bother trying to get the very last pound to register by cranking on and on and on. You are looking for, more than anything else, all cylinders to have a largely equal pressure although you'll never achieve this so a small difference (10% maybe?) between the min and max is not unusual. As to max pressure? This varies from engine to engine but can be found in the manufacturer's info. So without that what would be reasonable to expect? I've found that when there's a problem it's not unusual to find maybe 3 cylinders (assuming it's a 4 cylinder engine) giving all similar readings - 120, 115, 125 maybe? - then one with 75 maybe. That's when the oil in the hole test helps, (If pressure increases after adding the oil then it's a piston/ring problem) but a leak test is more definitive. As to an engine showing general excessive wear, I've seen engines running very happily with compressions not too far over the 100 psi but all pretty even cylinder to cylinder. What you have to remember is that doing a compression test is rotating the engine quite slowly so gives the air plenty of time to leak out anywhere it can find, especially through the piston rings or past a bad valve seat. When the engine is running it's rotating much faster so the time available for compression to leak down is much reduced. One reason why an engine with piston ring/bore wear will often start with a tow (especially diesels) when it won't start "on the button".

I'm enjoying following this thread. Please post some pictures if you can?
Kindest wishes
Jock
 
Thanks Guys As always very helpful and I will be following all of the suggestions. Attached a couple of pictures. The white one is my 1983 Pinnafarina. Owned it for seven years. Very original with 44000 miles and in super nice condition (my baby). The brown one is the 81 Turbo (no Turbo installed), I am restoring. Zero rust on both! Thanks again for the help! Oh I'm located in North Carolina so no MOT issues here.
 

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