E-cigs dangerous?

[PuntoHowTo]

Ecigs have only a few of the many proven dangerous chemicals in cigarettes go figure...

they still have dangerous chemicals, so your argument for ecigs doesn't stand the fact that many of these ecigs are made in uncontrolled and unregulated factories in china means that you although you might know whats in them today the batch you buy tomorrow could be completely different and use more dangerous chemicals higher doses etc indeed do you ever know whats in them just because it states some figures on the side of the box it doesn't mean they are true or accurate?

Are you serious??? The chemicals in the inhalers and some injections are the same as ecigs, just a different method of administration.

the problem with this is the assumption that medications are not dangerous in any way shape or form. its well known that inhalers have side effects and potential future health problems, but if you are a chronic asthmatic then you're not going to last very long without them, and again injections medications etc all contain elements which may be harmful over time but if you need them to live your life then its better to deal with the problems when they occur

All the people I know who have tried patches said it made them feel like death and the doses were way too strong. Once again, have you smoked? have you tried any of these devices, have you tried giving up.

This is just an ignorant comment from a typical smoker, the 'you don't know what its like' argument well..... in 2004 I first quit smoking, i was on about 20 a day and i managed to completely quit with in about 16 weeks using patches, i followed smoking cessation advice from my GP and at the 15 week point my partner at the time decided to start smoking again, she was quitting to using an inhalator (which i tried) and I soon started again unable to escape her smoking in the house.

in 2007 i split with that partner and started trying again to quit, I tried patches but by this time was smoking 30-ish a day and the patches were no longer strong enough. I tried gum, buccal tabs, nothing was really working so i went once again to see the GP's nurse lead smoking cessation service, i was prescribed varenicline (champix) which after about a week stopped me smoking and after a month stopped any hint of cravings.

so i can tell you
patches start to burn and irritate the skin after about 10 mins of being on and you get a bit on an initial hit but when you get a craving the good thing is you can rub the patch which causes them to release more nicotine, the down side being the skin irritation

inhalators taste pretty horrible and burn the throat

the gum is the most foul tasting stuff in the world the best way to describe the taste is white spirit mixed with mint

the tabs did absolutely nothing for me what so ever

the varenicline worked really well it stops the active components of nicotine reaching the receptors in the brain which create the cravings and addiction while at the same time lessoning the cravings ultimately they make you not bothered about smoking and they contain no nicotine replacement products. they do however give you pretty horrible stomach cramps if you take the tablets without food

so think before you make bold statements claiming that someone doesn't know something, I think I am far better qualified to talk about the effectiveness of nicotine replacement products than someone who has 'friends' who have tried them probably bought off the shelf without seeking any help or advice. ultimately all of these products are researched and extensively tested to enable them to be sold in the uk as medicines

I was born in the 80's and I hate eggs. Your website, your links so I guess all the news on it is old...

Like I said at the start that experiment is ancient.

whether an experiment is conducted last week or last century does it make it any less valid? in all honesty there are countless researchers working on e-cigerettes and there possible health problems simply because there isn't the research on them like there is on other products. in truth the article is based on research published this year and there are many other research papers published in the last 12 months that are published peer reviewed scientific studies that show using e-cigerettes increase respiratory resistance.

Interestingly recent research has shown that nicotine might not be the cause of cancers but where cells become malignant nicotine (on its own with no other chemicals) prevents the body from identifying and destroying these malignant cells before they can multiply and become a cancer. we all have these cells from time to time and our DNA is very well developed to destroy them, so smoking, e-cigs or patches you increase your risk of cancer considerably, the only thing about patches is no one uses them long term, they are quit smoking devices so once you quit and stop using them you'll seriously reduce your risk of cancer

 

[PuntoHowTo]

I was born in the 80's and I hate eggs. Your website, your links so I guess all the news on it is old...

and just to make a point here is an abstract from the lancet in 1976 about egg yokes. some times jounalists forget about research or just don't know (like your self) so they run stories when new research is published, the research is however still completely valid

Eggs and cholesterol.
DATE 01 Nov 1976
AUTHOR Carnie, J. A.
Published Year 1976
Dep. of Biochem., Univ. of Manchester Inst. of Sci & Tech., Manchester 1QD, UK
Lancet 1 (7970) 1182
English
SN 0140-6736
ABSTRACT The recent recommendation of a Joint Working Party of the Royal College of Physicians of London and the British Cardiac Society [see Journal of the Royal College of Physicians (1976) 10, 213] that consumption of egg yolks should be reduced (especially in patients with hypercholesterolaemia) is critically discussed, with reference to the high food value of egg yolk, and the lack of experimental evidence that dietary cholesterol intake significantly influences serum cholesterol levels.

at the time lots of people claimed that eggs were good for you and that there was no evidence they could ever be bad etc etc, yet the years that followed especially around the very early 80's proved that egg yokes are really not good for you or your cholesterol levels. do you really want to wait 40 years to find out that e-cigs cause all the same problems as traditional cigarettes? or perhaps just quitting entirely now would stop you having to find out

 

[Honeymonster]

they still have dangerous chemicals, so your argument for ecigs doesn't stand the fact that many of these ecigs are made in uncontrolled and unregulated factories in china means that you although you might know what's in them today the batch you buy tomorrow could be completely different and use more dangerous chemicals higher doses etc indeed do you ever know what's in them just because it states some figures on the side of the box it doesn't mean they are true or accurate?

You can mix your own juice (like I do) with very high standard european products if you wish. I think the Chinese are actually taking this seriously though (for a change). The Ecig is their invention and they stand to make a lot of money from it. If the give themselves a bad reputation they will be shooting themselves in the foot. This is also absolutely true with anything, poisonous foods, cosmetics etc. ironically the Chinese are even known for making fake eggs... Unfortunately it's up to you as an individual to make sure you purchase products of a high standard. When you go to a butcher to buy some meat you could be buying something absolutely horrendous...
Yes they are supposed to be controlled but be realistic. I've seen the back of butchery places in supermarkets that would make you physically sick.
This is a valid point, but valid for a lot of things not just ecigs. The market needs to be regulated, more on that later.

the problem with this is the assumption that medications are not dangerous in any way shape or form. its well known that inhalers have side effects and potential future health problems, but if you are a chronic asthmatic then you're not going to last very long without them, and again injections medications etc all contain elements which may be harmful over time but if you need them to live your life then its better to deal with the problems when they occur

Once again where did I claim it was good for you? All I claim is it's a better alternative to smoking. So if someone smokes and wants a potentially safer option they have a choice. Even if they don't give up they will still be better off. So it's clearly a beneficial product even if it only reduces smoking related diseases. Many people are not looking to give up, this is likely a healthier alternative for those people.

This is just an ignorant comment from a typical smoker, the 'you don't know what its like' argument well..... in 2004 I first quit smoking, i was on about 20 a day and i managed to completely quit with in about 16 weeks using patches, i followed smoking cessation advice from my GP and at the 15 week point my partner at the time decided to start smoking again, she was quitting to using an inhalator (which i tried) and I soon started again unable to escape her smoking in the house.

in 2007 i split with that partner and started trying again to quit, I tried patches but by this time was smoking 30-ish a day and the patches were no longer strong enough. I tried gum, buccal tabs, nothing was really working so i went once again to see the GP's nurse lead smoking cessation service, i was prescribed varenicline (champix) which after about a week stopped me smoking and after a month stopped any hint of cravings.

so i can tell you
patches start to burn and irritate the skin after about 10 mins of being on and you get a bit on an initial hit but when you get a craving the good thing is you can rub the patch which causes them to release more nicotine, the down side being the skin irritation

inhalators taste pretty horrible and burn the throat

the gum is the most foul tasting stuff in the world the best way to describe the taste is white spirit mixed with mint

the tabs did absolutely nothing for me what so ever

the varenicline worked really well it stops the active components of nicotine reaching the receptors in the brain which create the cravings and addiction while at the same time lessoning the cravings ultimately they make you not bothered about smoking and they contain no nicotine replacement products. they do however give you pretty horrible stomach cramps if you take the tablets without food

so think before you make bold statements claiming that someone doesn't know something, I think I am far better qualified to talk about the effectiveness of nicotine replacement products than someone who has 'friends' who have tried them probably bought off the shelf without seeking any help or advice. ultimately all of these products are researched and extensively tested to enable them to be sold in the uk as medicines

So you haven't tried an ecig? You only have an opinion on all those other products which sound pretty nasty. Thanks for that info though it's nice to see the comparissons. In my case I stopped smoking tobacco completely after a week and have no cravings for it now whatsoever (smoked 20+ a day Silk Cut Red). I have an item called a Clearomiser which is just a fancy name for a wicking ecig with a little tank of juice. I have been using it less and less and less. No side effects except the occasional dry mouth. Give it six months I might have stopped using it all together, although I doubt it because I quite enjoy having the odd puff. I wouldn't have even bothered to try giving up smoking without this device. No will power and no interest I kind of stumbled across it accidently due to interest in the technology. That's right I gave up smoking tobacco without even trying, find me another product that can do that. Technically I haven't given up, just moved my habit and reduced my consumption. But if all smokers did this wouldn't that be great... Not as good as giving up all together but clearly a step in the right direction.

whether an experiment is conducted last week or last century does it make it any less valid? in all honesty there are countless researchers working on e-cigerettes and there possible health problems simply because there isn't the research on them like there is on other products. in truth the article is based on research published this year and there are many other research papers published in the last 12 months that are published peer reviewed scientific studies that show using e-cigerettes increase respiratory resistance.

These devices have been around for over four years and no one has found out anything particularly scary about them yet. Like I say the general feeling on that experiment was it was caused due to the volunteers not being used to the vapour. A temporary effect like when you smoke your first cigarette. I certainly have only noticed improved breathing and health in general myself, no idea what happened in the first 10 minutes...
Also my sinus problems (which I've had several operations for) have improved dramatically. I'm sure they would have improved if I gave up smoking too, but I had no intention of giving up...

Interestingly recent research has shown that nicotine might not be the cause of cancers but where cells become malignant nicotine (on its own with no other chemicals) prevents the body from identifying and destroying these malignant cells before they can multiply and become a cancer. we all have these cells from time to time and our DNA is very well developed to destroy them, so smoking, e-cigs or patches you increase your risk of cancer considerably, the only thing about patches is no one uses them long term, they are quit smoking devices so once you quit and stop using them you'll seriously reduce your risk of cancer

Like I have said how many times... giving up is clearly the best option how ever it's done. Same with other drugs alcohol etc. but strangely loads of people and still do all these things fully aware of the dangers. So if you going to do it why not do it without coating your lungs in tar. We all do many things that are bad for us I'm sure, I know I certainly do (runs of to grab a dangerous toffee crisp).

Also I don't condone people using these devices to get over smoking bans or in combination with tobacco cigarettes. There are also people (like with anything) that abuse these devices adding ridiculous amounts of power and massive batteries, this clearly isn't going to be good for you.

My whole point is and has been from the start. Some one who smokes already can potentially switch to this all most over night. The benefits are ten fold to themselves and other people around them. So although there are negatives with these products, when compared to tobacco this is in my opinion a good option. This is especially a good option for people who have no intention of giving up smoking and this is what makes this product special. You can give up smoking without giving up smoking while benefitting yourself (compared to tobacco) and others around you (passive smoke etc.).

My final point though is the industry of course needs better regulation. It's in its infancy and it's very much up to the user to make sure they get quality merchandise at this point in time. Hopefully they won't tax it as a tobacco product to try and fill the gapping whole this could potentially leave if everyone stops smoking tobacco cigarettes.

But then the tax part is a whole new discussion isn't it, one that will effect the health service and the government....

 

[PuntoHowTo]

Like I have said how many times... giving up is clearly the best option how ever it's done.

With the original point of this thread being that e-Cigs are not good for you, and despite all your arguing to the contrary you are essentially saying that e-cigs are not good for you and the only real way to avoid smoking related illness is to quit entirely

which is all i was getting at in the first place

 

[Honeymonster]

With the original point of this thread being thate-Cigs are not good for you, and despite all your arguing to the contrary youare essentially saying that e-cigs are not good for you and the only real wayto avoid smoking related illness is to quit entirely

which is all I was getting at in the first place

The truth is, as I believe you stated earlier in the thread we still don't know.

The point is they are very likely way better than tobacco so putting people off by touting about them being dangerous could do more harm than good. It might mean someone sticks with tobacco instead of making any change whatsoever.

Myself I would still be puffing away on tobacco filling my lungs with tar if it wasn't for these products.

I don't think anyone is genuinely going to believe a product like this is good for you. Whether or not I'd call it dangerous is another matter (certainly with the information we currently have available). I don't see many people describing eggs as being dangerous either.

However we know for sure tobacco IS dangerous and all the nasty tar and chemicals do this:



So we are not in disagreement or ever were about the best option being to give up.

My point is this, people who aren't going to give up should give this a try. It might just add a considerable amount of illness free time to their life.

Everyone is aware of the dangers of tobacco, many still choose not to give it up. Even with the crazy prices, health risks, staining, bad smell, etc.

Some people just enjoy smoking...

 

[PuntoHowTo]

The truth is, as I believe you stated earlier in the thread we still don't know.
The point is they are very likely way better than tobacco so putting people off by touting about them being dangerous could do more harm than good. It might mean someone sticks with tobacco instead of making any change whatsoever.

How are you able to say with any real conviction that they are "way better" as you clearly state, we don't know yet in the short few years since they appeared the evidence is pointing more and more towards them being bad for you, not in comparison to normal cigarettes, no but come back in 70 years when you have a generation who have using them their whole life then you can analyze the data

Myself I would still be puffing away on tobacco filling my lungs with tar if it wasn't for these products.

you are still puffing away please don't try to convince people that to use these things they are giving up smoking, your chances of cancers is still extremely high if not as high as smoking regular cigarettes, and the chemicals in the vapor is still lining your lungs how else do you think the nicotine is getting into your blood stream.

I don't think anyone is genuinely going to believe a product like this is good for you. Whether or not I'd call it dangerous is another matter (certainly with the information we currently have available). I don't see many people describing eggs as being dangerous either.

OK so YOU don't think its dangerous in the face of evidence to the contrary, an opinion you spread freely yet you criticize my thread because it you say that current smokers will be put off from trying eCigs, apparently your opinion is that e-cigs are the answer and some how much better an alternative than someone seeking professional help from smoking cessation services, I would call the suggestion to experiment uneducated with ecigs considerably more dangerous especially if like you they continue to use these devices long term at least with smoking cessation the objective is to quit completely!
As a direct comparison what you're saying is that a crack user would be much better off instead off seeking professional help, shooting up with heroin as at least it doesn't contain cocaine, when the alternative would be to seek help from drug services where they can get methadone which is at least free from all the nasty contaminants of something produced without regulation or standards ok methadone isnt good for you but at least its produced to a very high standard in a controlled environment and is regulated and authorized

And eggs well if you have high cholesterol or have suffered a heart attack the usual treatment is with a dietician who will tell you to avoid or minimize your consumption of eggs and other foods high in cholesterol and usually switch to benicol and take statins so uh-huh people will tell you eggs are bad.

My point is this, people who aren't going to give up should give this a try. It might just add a considerable amount of illness free time to their life.

based on what? 5-10 years from now we could find that people are receiving higher doses from these devices, leading to a much higher rate head neck and lung cancers, blood disorders, liver problems vascular problems and dementia similar to that associated with alcohol abuse, the fact of the matter is that if science doesn't have the answers, why do you think you do?

 

[ChrisUK]

I love some of the debates we have on the Fiatforum... Awesome .

 

[Honeymonster]

Funny, you have just tried to put a load of words in my mouth that I didn't say.

I have already answered all these questions and have said very few of the things you imply I have said in your last post. A quick read of the thread reveals this.

I have already made the point this is not a device to give up. If you want to give up try something else/seek proffesional advice.

You are clearly more experienced than everone else that has written on this subject though so they must be completely wrong. I think your comparisons with heroin and coke are a little extreme to put it mildly.

You are entitled to your opinion. I have no intention of continuing this argument I have said what I wanted to say now we are just wasting time.

I'm not trying to protect my pride here just have a proper discussion about my experiences and some of the immediate obvious effects this product has had for me and many others.

You on the other hand seem to think this is some kind of competition.

I'm sure you will write something again under this probably to try and make yourself look superior so I'll just leave you to it.

Edit:

I'll let you ponder on these too. There are two sides to every story:

http://www.cspnet.com/news/tobacco/...ggests-e-cigs-less-harmful-tobacco-cigarettes

http://www.cspnet.com/news/tobacco/...ash-over-potential-harm-electronic-cigarettes

 

[PuntoHowTo]

I have already made the point this is not a device to give up. If you want to give up try something else/seek professional advice.

you implied numerous times that you've have been successfully using this device to get off tobacco and reduce the amount of nicotine you're consuming. all in all you're trying to tell everyone who reads this that E-cigs are an alternative to seeking professional help

You are clearly more experienced than everyone else that has written on this subject though so they must be completely wrong.

I think anyone who defends smoking is either seriously disillusioned or plain stupid I hope you fall into the former category.

no amount of pictures of black lungs can even remotely compare to losing a family member to lung cancer or worse still watching them die slowly and painfully from COPD gasping for breath day in day out, suffering a stroke or in your case a father suffering a serious heart attack. Stents are a nice repair patch but without serious life style changes they won't last long.

your comparisons with heroin and coke are a little extreme to put it mildly.

extreme maybe.... true? well you've not disputed that?

I can cope with a little extreme if it gets the message across

You are entitled to your opinion. I have no intention of continuing this argument I have said what I wanted to say now we are just wasting time.

good because your ill informed and un-substantiated claims about these devices is simply dangerous if anyone is worried about the health effects of cigarettes, then the first port of call should be their GP of local smoking services, not to buy some dodgy device off eBay on the recommendation of someone who hasn't ever so much as tried to quit and is clearly militant about their own habit

I'm not trying to protect my pride here just have a proper discussion about my experiences and some of the immediate obvious effects this product has had for me and many others.

if by proper discussion about your experiences you really mean "justify your nicotine habit and encourage others in the pursuit of their own habit instead of seeking the correct help, then that is exactly what you've been doing.

You on the other hand seem to think this is some kind of competition.

not really its just important to rebuke your incredibly bad advice

I'm sure you will write something again under this probably to try and make yourself look superior so I'll just leave you to it.

of course i am going to respond to this I would be a fool not to.

you've smoked and used an e-cig but that is the full extent of your experience, you've never tried to quit, you spoke to a 'mate' who tried a patch and didn't like it etc etc yet you still want to perpetuate the idea that smoking isn't an addiction or habit its something people only do because they enjoy it which ignoring the simple fact that this is the effect of nicotine on your brain thats how addiction works

 

[Freebo]

this is bacon:

Discuss

 

[ChrisUK]

Yum .

Although overcooked.

 

[Eklipze3k]

Only slightly overcooked, and now I'm really hungry!

 

[Freebo]

Yea its a little overcooked for me as well, I prefer mine 'dingy'

 

[PuntoHowTo]

this is bacon:

Discuss

It's missing the martini

 

[Numptey]

So I am a little confused, should I stop smoking or get a disco machine to suck on?