Technical Ducato X250 immobiliser light on and won't start

[NZGrahamO]

Hi

You seen to have gone done the rabbit hole with your problem ( It has an intermittent immobiliser issue where the Fiat Code (immobiliser) light comes on and it will not start )
I see you are using a clone ELM 327 interface with your Multiscan software. ????
Do not do this only use the real one sold with the Multiscan software.
Multiscan advise this because of the many problems people have.
Do not use any other type of scan software / scan tools
You need to get the e learn drawings and check / test all connections on the C lines.
Be though with pin connections into plugs.
Start with the info I posted ( Graham O )
Can line problems will show all sorts of faults up which for the most are red herrings.
I found that at the hard way.
Stay with your first fault ( It has an intermittent immobiliser issue where the Fiat Code (immobiliser) light comes on and it will not start )

Graham O

 

[ducatambo]

Hi

You seen to have gone done the rabbit hole with your problem ( It has an intermittent immobiliser issue where the Fiat Code (immobiliser) light comes on and it will not start )
I see you are using a clone ELM 327 interface with your Multiscan software. ????

it's a cheap generic one, yes.

Do not do this only use the real one sold with the Multiscan software.

Authorised MES distributors sell VGate VLinker FS highspeed interface. I guess that is the one you mean. Only marginally more expensive.

Multiscan advise this because of the many problems people have.
Do not use any other type of scan software / scan tools
You need to get the e learn drawings and check / test all connections on the C lines.
Be though with pin connections into plugs.

That makes sense. I spent several hours on e-learn yesterday getting all the diagrams I need.

Start with the info I posted ( Graham O )

The specific pinouts you posted don't apply to my vehicle. Euro 5 vehicles have different modules and correspondingly different pinouts, which vary further depending on the engine. But anyway thanks for posting because I had to go and figure that out!
A warning to anyone looking for pinouts on E-learn: when following links make sure you are linked to the page which is relevant to your model as I have been 'lead away' and had to get into the correct page from higher up the menu hierarchy!
This from e-learn (for Euro 5):

The key recognition dialogue and the code exchange between the Body Computer M001 and the engine management control unit M010 occur through the C-CAN, via pins 37 and 38 of connector D of the Body computer M001 and the engine management control unit M010 (pins 83 and 84 of connector B for the 3.0 JTD version, pins 70 and 69 of connector B for the 2.3 JTD version, pins 25 and 24 of connector B for the 2.0 JTD version).

The following nodes are connected to the Body Computer M001 via the C-CAN high speed network:

• the diagnostic socket R010
• the steering angle control unit M092 (only versions with ESP);
• the ABS/ESP braking system control unit M051;
• the engine management control unit M010.

In detail, the Body computer M001 is connected:

• from pins 28 and 29 of connector H with the diagnosis socket R010 (pins 6 and 14);
• for the versions with ESP, from pins 38 and 37 of connector D, with the steering angle control unit M092 (pins 4 and 2 of connector B);
• for the versions without ESP, from pins 38 and 37 of connector D, with the ABS/ESP braking system control unit M051 (pins 26 and 14).

For the versions with ESP, the steering angle control unit M092 is connected to pins 26 and 14 of the braking system control unit M051 through pins 3 and 1.


The ABS/ESP braking system control unit M051 is then connected, via pins 15 and 27, to the engine management control unit M010 (pins 83 and 84 of connector B for the 3.0 JTD version, pins 70 and 69 of connector B for the 2.3 JTD version, pin 25 and 24 of connector B for the 2.0 JTD version).

Additionally the base colour of the C-can lines is slightly different on the Euro 5's, dark blue as opposed to light blue on earlier models. Stripe colours are the same.

Can line problems will show all sorts of faults up which for the most are red herrings.
I found that at the hard way.

Stay with your first fault ( It has an intermittent immobiliser issue where the Fiat Code (immobiliser) light comes on and it will not start )


Graham O

 

[NZGrahamO]

it's a cheap generic one, yes.

Authorised MES distributors sell VGate VLinker FS highspeed interface. I guess that is the one you mean. Only marginally more expensive.



That makes sense. I spent several hours on e-learn yesterday getting all the diagrams I need.

The specific pinouts you posted don't apply to my vehicle. Euro 5 vehicles have different modules and correspondingly different pinouts, which vary further depending on the engine. But anyway thanks for posting because I had to go and figure that out!
A warning to anyone looking for pinouts on E-learn: when following links make sure you are linked to the page which is relevant to your model as I have been 'lead away' and had to get into the correct page from higher up the menu hierarchy!
This from e-learn (for Euro 5):


Additionally the base colour of the C-can lines is slightly different on the Euro 5's, dark blue as opposed to light blue on earlier models. Stripe colours are the same.

Sorry my info re pin outs 47 /48 on plug D M001 a mis type . Should had read pin outs 37 / 38 on plug D M001.
You are using the same drawings as I did.
The ELM 327 interface that is recommended for your Multiscan software I got from Gerdan in the UK.
Beware of clone ELM 327.
As I found on the Can lines just a pin in a plug not making contact with the socket on the ECM will throw up heaps of different faults making you look for faults that are not there.
But the immobilizer fault comes from the area we have been talking about ( Loss of connection )
Also if you have a 2.3 ltr engine pins 70 / 79 plug B or 2.0 ltr engine pins 24 / 25 plug B on M010

 

[ducatambo]

an update:
after many rabbit holes and red herrings...
the van is running! hooray
it turned out to be an issue with the C-CAN wiring after all. the C-CAN on my model Ducato connects from the BCM to the ABS control unit and then to the ECU. Testing resistance first across the C-CAN on the various connectors and then on all the wires showed up an open circuit on one of the wires between BCM & ABS. The connector pins were making decent contact so I was able to rule that out. I decided to replace that section of the C-CAN twisted pair.

NB: the ELM OBD scanner was able to detect the C-CAN on the BCU side and show faults on the BCU, but it could not detect the ABS or ECU because the C-CAN itsself was at fault. I would contest the assertion that the cheap ELM interfaces are no good in general.

Disassembling and de-pinning connectors is tricky. I watched some youtube videos on the subject. I ordered a chinese-made de-pinning kit from ebay. Don't think of buying vendor-specific tools, they are silly money like £100 for a tool. I couldn't get hold of a crimp tool (to re-pin them with new pins) but managed fine with a pair of small pliers.
Finding out which specific connector pins I needed and where to order them took some researching. The only place I could find that sold the pins I needed was Mouser Electronics. iIended up paying about £23 altogether for a strip each of the pins for BCM and ABS respectively, including FedEx shipping fee.
The package shipped from Texas even though I ordered it from their UK site, but it arrived within a couple of days.
PDF diagram of the ABS connector is attached here.

I didn't bother unwrapping the wiring loom completely, just where it meets the connectors at either end. On the right-hand drive model both driver and passenger side headlights need to be removed to get to it. It seems the loom (or at least the main part of it) is shorter on left-hand drive models as it just has to come straight through the bulkhead from BCM to ABS & ECU whereas on right-hand vehicles it runs under the windscreen above the airbox. I was pleased to find the hole in the bulkhead could be reached without further disassembling the dashboard. I wrapped the new wire pair in insulating tape and secured it to the existing loom with zip ties.

Van now starts and runs. I haven't scanned again for faults yet and I have a full donor kit of BCM/ECU/key/instrument panel spare which I will probably sell on.
Thanks for the helpful suggestions.

 

[Communicator]

May I thank @ducatambo for taking the time, to put together an informative, and interesting post.

I also have struggled with removing connector pins, and sourcing replacements. On some occasions I have resorted to opening the insulation crimp with an engineering scriber, followed by needle nosed pliers, and then worrying off the remaining cable end. A new wire can then be soldered over the conductor crimp, with the insulation crimp reclosed, either with pliers, or a very basic crimping tool meant for uninsulated crimp terminals.

Rather than use insulating tape for small cable forms I have twisted individual wires together with the aid of a handbrace (drill) with the remote ends secured, Resulting cable then drawn into suitably sized PVC tubing. While my applications did not require it, twisted pairs should be used for the canbus.

 

[ducatambo]

just to clarify, I used twisted pair which I bought from twisted pair uk on eBay, nice wee niche business. the tape over it is just for additional protection. indeed one could make up one's own twisted pairs. i was just being a lazy consoomer in this instance. trust me, i've done plenty of improvisation and upcycling elsewhere on this camper project

 

[321tom]

Hi

I had the same problem with my 2016 Ducato with immobilizer not allowing the motor to start.
After checking just about everything using Multi ECU scan tool I found that the C Can signals between engine management control unit ( M010 ) and the body computer ( M001) at times was not working hence bringing up the immobilizer light and no engine start.
The problem was plug A on M010 pins 48 and 49 were not making contact at times bringing up the immobilizer light and no engine start.
I dismantled plug A and fitted new pins. Problem fixed.
Also check plug B pins 83 and 84 on ( M001 )
Also check wiring between both ECUs
M001 Plug A pins 48 / 49 connects to M010 plug B pins 83 / 84

Graham O

Are the pin numbers fuses. I have the same problem and im struggling.

 

[Communicator]

Are the pin numbers fuses. I have the same problem and im struggling.

No. The pin numbers reffered to are the body control unit (M001), and engine control unit (M010) pins. However the ecu pin numbers may depend on which Ducato model, and engine that you have.

 

[321tom]

No. The pin numbers reffered to are the body control unit (M001), and engine control unit (M010) pins. However the ecu pin numbers may depend on which Ducato model, and engine that you have.

I think ile need a Auto Electrician. I dont understand that.

My van is a 2017 Ducato ex Bt van. Its been fine until i took it to the mechanics to have an oil leak and manifold leak.
Now the padlock sign stays on and it wont fire up. It also says abs and hill assist not available. I saw one thread asking me to leave my key in the ignition for 30 min and then turn the ignition on and off a few times. That worked but has gone back to not working.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[321tom]

If anyone can help, would appreciate it.

 

[Googlebot]

Do you have a copy of Multi ECU scan and the leads to have a look?

Without that, it’s a bit of a stab in the dark.

It sounds like a canbus has been broken or left unplugged somewhere.

 

[321tom]

Thanks for the reply mate. I was under the van cleaning it with brake cleaner, here there and everywere. Not sure if ive knocked something. Are the canbusses under the van mate?

Also, would you take the van to fiat or a auto electrician?

Do you have a copy of Multi ECU scan and the leads to have a look?

Without that, it’s a bit of a stab in the dark.

It sounds like a canbus has been broken or left unplugged somewhere.

 

[Googlebot]

Canbus are the connections between the different computer modules.

I would use an auto electrician, probably a lot cheaper than Fiat.

 

[Communicator]

@Googlebot , @321tom ,

If I understand correctly from his comments in post #29, 321tom is not proficient with modern vehicle electronics. In this case he may well be best advised to seek the services of an auto electrician, as he himself suggests. Fiat labour charges are reputed to empty your wallet at high speed.

From reading various diagrams, the engine would still crank, even if the engine computer unit (ECU) completely disconnected. Also I note that work has recently been done around the engine. With the aim of saving cash there are perhaps two items that he could check.
1. Is the ECU firmly plugged in? It is normally a flat cast metal box with a black cover, and attached to to the LHS inner wing near the air filter.
2. As the vehicle will be high mileage, for elimination check for the "rusty junction" problem. This occurs below the LHS headlamp, which would need to be removed. A wiring harness can rub against a tubular frame member rust sets in and wires can be worn away. Attached photo originally posted by member Reg65.
If not happy to proceed do not try.

 

[321tom]

@Googlebot , @321tom ,

If I understand correctly from his comments in post #29, 321tom is not proficient with modern vehicle electronics. In this case he may well be best advised to seek the services of an auto electrician, as he himself suggests. Fiat labour charges are reputed to empty your wallet at high speed.

From reading various diagrams, the engine would still crank, even if the engine computer unit (ECU) completely disconnected. Also I note that work has recently been done around the engine. With the aim of saving cash there are perhaps two items that he could check.
1. Is the ECU firmly plugged in? It is normally a flat cast metal box with a black cover, and attached to to the LHS inner wing near the air filter.
2. As the vehicle will be high mileage, for elimination check for the "rusty junction" problem. This occurs below the LHS headlamp, which would need to be removed. A wiring harness can rub against a tubular frame member rust sets in and wires can be worn away. Attached photo originally posted by member Reg65.
If not happy to proceed do not try.

Thank you very much mate. The mileage is 38k but the van was from scotland so more chance of rust. Thanks

 

[321tom]

@Googlebot , @321tom ,

If I understand correctly from his comments in post #29, 321tom is not proficient with modern vehicle electronics. In this case he may well be best advised to seek the services of an auto electrician, as he himself suggests. Fiat labour charges are reputed to empty your wallet at high speed.

From reading various diagrams, the engine would still crank, even if the engine computer unit (ECU) completely disconnected. Also I note that work has recently been done around the engine. With the aim of saving cash there are perhaps two items that he could check.
1. Is the ECU firmly plugged in? It is normally a flat cast metal box with a black cover, and attached to to the LHS inner wing near the air filter.
2. As the vehicle will be high mileage, for elimination check for the "rusty junction" problem. This occurs below the LHS headlamp, which would need to be removed. A wiring harness can rub against a tubular frame member rust sets in and wires can be worn away. Attached photo originally posted by member Reg65.
If not happy to proceed do not try.

Thanks for the help. Is that the passenger headlight. Is it under the fuse box.

 

[Communicator]

Thanks for the help. Is that the passenger headlight. Is it under the fuse box.

The LHS headlamp is passenger side on a RHS drive vehicle. I am sorry but I do not have any more applicable photos.

 

[321tom]

The LHS headlamp is passenger side on a RHS drive vehicle. I am sorry but I do not have any more applicable photos.

X

The LHS headlamp is passenger side on a RHS drive vehicle. I am sorry but I do not have any more applicable photos.

Thanks again. Ile have a poke around tomorrow and if i have no luck. Ile get a recovery truck to take it to the Auto Electricians next week. Ile post on here how i get on.

 

[Googlebot]

X

Thanks again. Ile have a poke around tomorrow and if i have no luck. Ile get a recovery truck to take it to the Auto Electricians next week. Ile post on here how i get on.

Thanks for posting back. It really helps others when problems are solved and everyone knows how.

 

[321tom]

Thanks for posting back. It really helps others when problems are solved and everyone knows how.

Ive noticed a slight tear towards the end of the earth strap were it bolts down. Im debating weather to buy a new strap from halfords or put some jump leads on it.

Ile buy some contact wd40 contact cleaner and check the plugs around the Ecu.

In the past i had a problem with a fuse box that moisture had got in. I had to buy a new fuse box and put a new earth wire in the loom as that had melted. I havnt got any burning smell this time so dont think it will be the fuse box.

Tom.