Technical Ducato without a mobiliser antenna

[bill2b]

Hi
Ongoing saga with my change of the coolant valve from another thread, pictures will follow on there, but.
Got it all together and the immobiliser lock light stays on and obviously it wouldnt start, turns over but nothing else.
I have a Sigma alarm system fitted and it all seems to work as required. I suspected that its something to do with the battery being disconnected while I had the dash out.
Today I had a really nice chap out from a local auto electricians and he hunted high and low for the reason without any luck.
It has the phase 2 immobiliser from the factory. The baffling thing is that there is no Immobiliser ring on on the ignition module and no "yellow or black" immobiliser box anywhere in sight.
Tried phoning the local Fiat dealers Stone"arse" to ask them where it was on my van but they were helpful as a non helpful thing and suggested I get it towed to Doncaster to get it looked at, of course you could not speak to an actual mechanic you only get a phone "technician" who does not know what a Ducato looks like. Their customer service stinks IMHO but whatever, so has anyone any ideas where the elusive immobiliser box is?

 

[Communicator]

Hi bill2b,
Please which version is your Ducato? I may have missed it, but I cannot see it mentioned on your heater matrix thread either.

 

[bill2b]

Its a 2.8 JTD type 244 registered 2006, I have not done anything on the matrix thread yet as I have not finished because of this problem, its in bits again lol.

 

[Communicator]

Its a 2.8 JTD type 244 registered 2006, I have not done anything on the matrix thread yet as I have not finished because of this problem, its in bits again lol.

My PVC is the same, build date early 2006.

The code receiver aerial is contained in the plastic moulding that surrounds the outer end of the ignition lock.

The code receiver itself is under the lower steering column cover.

I have had my starter battery disconnected several times when working on the vehicle, so do not think that disconnecting it would have caused your problem. However I think that a battery that has been allowed to go flat over a period of time may be an influence.

A code failure is one of my worst fears. I have suffered from one, which was OK at immediate second attempt. That was 10 months ago, and after a few hours running time. Several subsequent failures when testing at home, but gradually no more at present.

@Anthony489 has sufferd from a serious code failure problem on his x250, when away from home, and has advanced a plausible theory that the various components go out of tune over time. I am inclined to speculate that ambient temperature could also have an effect.

I am attaching a pdf copy of the code receiver diagram, and linking here to an online version of eLearn. Please note that this online version is incomplete in some areas, and some of the other diagrams are obscured,

 

[bill2b]

 

[bill2b]

Oops put the picture in but could not find where to write, sorry.
Anyway herein lies the problem, I know the bits you are talking about, I have seen many pictures of them during my online research trying to find something that looks like what I have but sadly mine does not have any of this, no plastic ring on the ignition, corresponding loom coming from said plastic ring and no yellow (or black) box on the steering column. Me and my auto electrician were hunting high and low yesterday, I even wondered if I was growing mad and had taken this all off when I was taking the heater box and dash off but "no" I am sure I'm not lol.
I wonder if mine is an Ambulance chassis because they don't have immobilisers? Its an Ecovip Laika.
I will try bypassing the shut off switch this morning to see if it makes any difference?
I also have fuse 18 in the box under the bonnet (ign) blowing so am trying to trace that back

Thanks for your replies, I will let you know.

 

[bill2b]

Ahh, just looking on the diagram you sent and F18 is code receiver??? The plot thickens, now where on earth is it lol

 

[bill2b]

Ignore my Ambulance comment, it appears thats not true, sorry

 

[Communicator]

Ahh, just looking on the diagram you sent and F18 is code receiver??? The plot thickens, now where on earth is it lol

Fuse 18 is also shown on eLearn as supplying the Main Injection Relay. Connection made via loop between ECU connector "A" pins 12 & 23. See attached diagram. For more wiring info use eLearn, online version will do. Select appropriate diagram, and then scroll down. If you click on the various compnent codes, it will give you the wiring for that compnent. There is a lot of info there, bit of a mine field with various versions to select from. Also has errors.

I appreciate that I may be preaching to the converted.

 

[bill2b]

No, your not preaching at all, many thanks for your assistance, I will print this off and show my elect man today

 

[Communicator]

Just thinking a bit more. I have read that with immobiliser problems, one fix is to remove the chip from the key, and stick it on or close to the aerial ring. (Security is of course impaired because the vehicle could then be started with a non chipped key or hot wiring.) The connection between the aerial ring and the code unit is only about 15cms long, but the wiring loom for the code unit is longer. If the aerial is bundled with the code receiver the pair could be moved to a position determined by the length of the loom. I am not sure that it applies in this case, but several of the harness loom sections leading to the steering column switches pass under the instrument binnacle. Is it worth looking under the binnacle, or has this area already been investigated?

 

[bill2b]

Just thinking a bit more. I have read that with immobiliser problems, one fix is to remove the chip from the key, and stick it on or close to the aerial ring. (Security is of course impaired because the vehicle could then be started with a non chipped key or hot wiring.) The connection between the aerial ring and the code unit is only about 15cms long, but the wiring loom for the code unit is longer. If the aerial is bundled with the code receiver the pair could be moved to a position determined by the length of the loom. I am not sure that it applies in this case, but several of the harness loom sections leading to the steering column switches pass under the instrument binnacle. Is it worth looking under the binnacle, or has this area already been investigated?

I have looked everywhere, all the lower dash is off again, there is definitely no ring round the ign switch, no loom or box to be seen. I have the chap who originally fitted our Sigma coming out on Wed, he cant remember exactly bet even he said about the plastic aerial ring. I did dismantle one key and the chip is there, the case continues lol.

 

[bill2b]

Well what an interesting thing. Went out today for a quick play, found the main ign relay (drivers right foot area) took it out all looked ok put it back in, then I decided to put the engine bay fuse box back together 5 plugs and live feed, then I was going to put fuse 18 in with the Ign relay out to see if it still blew, it didnt and I had not taken the relay off yet???? OK ign key on, no lock light, blow me down it started. Only problem was the fan for the cab radiator was on so I tried switching it off, no luck, unplugged the switch again no luck. Turned off the engine, then we had a cunning plan. got the spare key that I had taken the immobiliser chip out of, hid the chip and the main key away in the house and tried the now empty key, it started??? We do not have a Fiat Immobiliser, tbh I am pretty pleased about that given our experience with Fiat customer service and the fact I could not find any of it. I then tried the Sigma plipper and it beeped, then the fuse blew. Aha said the blind man. At least it runs lol. All I did fan wise was extend the 3 wires so I could position the coolant selector actuator in a different place under the bonnet when I make a place for the new all metal valve, so why the fan is running continuous is work for another day lol.

 

[Communicator]

Thank you for the updete, which is an interesting read. However your post poses another question.

The padlock symbol light, is normally driven from pin A2 of missing code receiver, so what now is switching it on? I do think that it will be the least of your concerns.

 

[bill2b]

Thank you for the updete, which is an interesting read. However your post poses another question.

The padlock symbol light, is normally driven from pin A2 of missing code receiver, so what now is switching it on? I do think that it will be the least of your concerns.

Yes your right, that is not the biggest worry now lol. I suspect / hope that the guy who fitted our Sigma system all them years ago will shed some light on it on Wednesday. Could the sigma be controlling the padlock light now? Will let you know
Edit, just been out to look and there is 2 add on wires into the Black Instrument connector, one is the cruise control, not sure where the other goes but its certainly an add on.

 

[Anthony489]

Hi bill2b

Glad to see that Communicator is helping you. My data on the X244 is limited, as I have never managed to get the elearn data (available via this site) unzipped and mounted to my PC despite a couple of attempts.

Without wishing to muscle in, as far as I can see Fuse F18 only supplies relay coils, which draw a fraction of an amp each. If it blows, that indicates a substantial current overload e.g. a wiring short circuit. Another possibility is that the aftermarket alarm/immobiliser has been "piggy backed" onto F18 and is somehow pulling a lot of current (at least for a short time) when activated.

Incidentally, Fiat schematics are drawn in a rather misleading way as they tend to only show one function at a time. Where you have one fuse supplying several loads, the other loads are not shown or even hinted at, e.g. by showing a little stub in the wiring. If you just look at one diagram you get the misleading impression that a fuse only supplies one thing. When faultfinding in this situation I have sometimes had to resort to temporarily supplying all the loads with individual lower rated fuses, so that when one of them blows you can narrow down where the trouble lies.

I am a bit puzzled by your reference to the fan for the cab radiator, as the rest of your post is talking about coolant. Do you mean the fans in the engine bay behind the main radiator ?

It does sound as though your vehicle was either not fitted with a factory immobiliser, or someone has removed it which is rather unconventional. My own vehicle has a factory immobiliser and an aftermarket alarm/immobiliser which happily coexist. It also sounds as though the dashboard "padlock" light has been re-purposed, possibly by the fitter of the aftermarket alarm/immobiliser.

A typical alarm/immobiliser will protect two circuits as part of its immobiliser function. It's up to the installer to decide what these two circuits are, but the favourite would be the main injection relay and the low pressure fuel pump. If you have trouble with either of these, the immobiliser should be included in any faultfinding !

 

[Communicator]

This is a forum. All constructive suggestions, and factual corrections should be welcome.

Anthony's mention of the failure of eLearn diagrams to indicate multiple connections, echoes my own thoughts. The somewhat infamous F11 being an exception. In the past I have worked with drawing systems that used a trident like symbol to denote a common point.

One remote possibility to be aware of is the substitution of non OEM relays. Fiat seem to have ignored the Bosch convention of making coil terminal 86 +ve, and 85 -ve. If the replacement relay has an internal supression diode, then you have a fuse blowing situation.

I find Anthony's final paragraph instructive, as it is 30 plus years since I last installed an alarm system, and that only offered single circuit immobiliser function.

My apologies to all, as some of the above is slightly off topic.

 

[bill2b]

Hi bill2b

Glad to see that Communicator is helping you. My data on the X244 is limited, as I have never managed to get the elearn data (available via this site) unzipped and mounted to my PC despite a couple of attempts.

Without wishing to muscle in, as far as I can see Fuse F18 only supplies relay coils, which draw a fraction of an amp each. If it blows, that indicates a substantial current overload e.g. a wiring short circuit. Another possibility is that the aftermarket alarm/immobiliser has been "piggy backed" onto F18 and is somehow pulling a lot of current (at least for a short time) when activated.

Incidentally, Fiat schematics are drawn in a rather misleading way as they tend to only show one function at a time. Where you have one fuse supplying several loads, the other loads are not shown or even hinted at, e.g. by showing a little stub in the wiring. If you just look at one diagram you get the misleading impression that a fuse only supplies one thing. When faultfinding in this situation I have sometimes had to resort to temporarily supplying all the loads with individual lower rated fuses, so that when one of them blows you can narrow down where the trouble lies.

I am a bit puzzled by your reference to the fan for the cab radiator, as the rest of your post is talking about coolant. Do you mean the fans in the engine bay behind the main radiator ?

It does sound as though your vehicle was either not fitted with a factory immobiliser, or someone has removed it which is rather unconventional. My own vehicle has a factory immobiliser and an aftermarket alarm/immobiliser which happily coexist. It also sounds as though the dashboard "padlock" light has been re-purposed, possibly by the fitter of the aftermarket alarm/immobiliser.

A typical alarm/immobiliser will protect two circuits as part of its immobiliser function. It's up to the installer to decide what these two circuits are, but the favourite would be the main injection relay and the low pressure fuel pump. If you have trouble with either of these, the immobiliser should be included in any faultfinding !

 

[bill2b]

Hi Anthony
The whole reason for this saga is that we had a water leak in the passenger footwell, we were away so bypassed the internal water system. When I got home I removed the heater unit. Sadly that a bloody big lump which in the end necessitated taking the whole dash out. I took loads of pictures so I coud do a report on here elsewhere. Anyway, in the end it was the coolant selector vale which diverted hot water to a matrix in the main cabin that was leaking, I ordered a new one it arrived broken. I decided to modify it and put a no standard one under the bonnet instead. Anyway put the heater unit back in and along with the corresponding plugs, but sadly it went downhill from there, I spent a loooooong time trying to locate my factory Immobiliser but it would seem I ain't got one? I am only a basic auto electrician type, I can do all the usual stuff but struggle if it goes pear shaped. These random "faults" i do struggle with.
The auto engineer that came out and I spent ages trying to find this immobiliser, he went home and found a diagram of my exact vehicle but it still showed the standard type fiat immobiliser. His diagram showed that this box was at the right knee area of the driver so he thought it may be on the back of the fuse box, I took the fuse box off and its just a fuse box. Today though I decided to put it back and there is a black block of earths that was attached to the chassis, and it has current flowing through it lol.
The randomness of these faults drive me barmy, every day I go out with different ideas and its all changed lol. I am sure it will be something pretty simple and the bloke coming round on Wed will sort it out for me (he fitted the sigma)
I will keep you informed and thanks for all the responses

 

[bugsymike]

This may be irrelevant but I had a similar issue with ex Highways 2001 Iveco Daily pickup some years ago and they use the same Italian SOFIM 2.8 common rail engine as the Ducato though RWD. I drove it home no problem and as it was filthy I steam cleaned inside the cab and everywhere, afterwards it wouldn't start, long story short their drivers were always snapping the expensive chipped keys so the common practice was to tape the chip to the key antenae and jam it behind the speaker cover. My steam cleaning had blown the chip away with the rest of the dirt. Dealers wanted a £1000 if I towed it to them, in the end I posted the Bosch ECU to a guy in Bradford (no longer there) he disabled the immobiliser and told me before reconnecting the battery to remove the plugs to the antenae ring and the immobilser ECU which talks to the main ECU, I did all this and it was fine, total cost including return postage £130.
Subsequently on another Iveco Daily I asked a local ECU "specialist" to do the same on the same model Bosch ECU and he told me it was not possible to do. I pointed out a guy in a small business in Bradford had managed to do it several years before him, but he was unhelpful!
Another possible answer people do on some other makes of vehicle is to buy from a scrap yard for a similar model the ECU, chipped keys , antenae ring and any other immobiliser related electrical bits as a kit, it used to be around £100. You could keep your original keys as long as you changed the chip to your key from the one supplied, that way the steering lock could remain the same along with the doors.
Hope some of this is helpful to some out there, Communicator suggested it as I had not been following your string.