Technical Ducato 2.3 MJ, turns over, won't start but will start with easy start

[RC3]

Hi,

I have a DUCATO 2.3 DIESEL 2007 (89k miles horsebox conversion) normally starts first time every time (battery isolator fitted). It was last used on the 9th December for an hour round trip with no issues.
With the cold weather in the UK (-8c) I went to start it on the 13th and it would turn over but not fire, left until the 14th and attempted to jump start in case issue was the battery, did the same thing turned over but wouldn't fire. Tried to get it going with easy start, after 3 attempts it came on and ran perfectly for 45 minutes, we switched it off and it restarted no problem.
Tried to start on the 15th and 16th but wouldn't come on without easy start, ran for an hour on both days after we got it on, would then start again after we switched it off but after 24 hours back to the same issue.
Left until the 19th with warmer temperatures of 12 degrees and it's still no better.
There are no issues with how its running we just can't seem to get it on under it's own steam.

Any suggestions on things we would need to check/where to start to identify the problem would be highly appreciated!

 

[bugsymike]

Hi,

I have a DUCATO 2.3 DIESEL 2007 (89k miles horsebox conversion) normally starts first time every time (battery isolator fitted). It was last used on the 9th December for an hour round trip with no issues.
With the cold weather in the UK (-8c) I went to start it on the 13th and it would turn over but not fire, left until the 14th and attempted to jump start in case issue was the battery, did the same thing turned over but wouldn't fire. Tried to get it going with easy start, after 3 attempts it came on and ran perfectly for 45 minutes, we switched it off and it restarted no problem.
Tried to start on the 15th and 16th but wouldn't come on without easy start, ran for an hour on both days after we got it on, would then start again after we switched it off but after 24 hours back to the same issue.
Left until the 19th with warmer temperatures of 12 degrees and it's still no better.
There are no issues with how its running we just can't seem to get it on under it's own steam.

Any suggestions on things we would need to check/where to start to identify the problem would be highly appreciated!

Start off with checking the heater plugs and circuits/feed to them. Assuming battery is 100% and engine spinning over fast as it should.

 

[Anthony489]

Hi

I would second bugsymike

Even if the battery is 100%, the connections to and from (earth) the starter motor all need to be in tip-top condition or the engine won't crank fast enough to fire up in cold weather. Merely turning over isn't enough, the diesel/air mixture has to get hot enough to self-ignite. If the cranking is too slow the heat is frittered away to the cold cylinder walls and never gets high enough. The earth connection includes the gearbox to body earth strap which is notorious for looking OK but corrodes inside and gradually develops a high resistance. By high I mean any more than about 0.002 ohms, i.e. not something you can check with an ordinary meter.

I am always deeply suspicious of battery isolator switches as I have come across too many of the "Red Key" type that are poorly made. Maybe OK at 200 Amps in a passenger car but pull 500 Amps through them trying to start a big cold diesel and they can lose several volts, leaving the starter with much less than 12 and slowing it down. The "Green Wheel" design is usually better if made from solid brass as they don't rely on spring pressure. Try taking the isolator out of circuit and see if cranking is faster. If you must have a Key type isolator get a heavy duty one from a marine chandler (250 Amp continuous, 2500 Amp peak) and expect to pay at least £50.

Earsy start is OK if you really must get started, but don't use it too often as it solvent washes all the oil off the bores which isn't good for engine wear.

 

[varesecrazy]

Any progress..?

There is probably a maxi.fuse protecting the glowplugs.. no power if thats blown

 

[varesecrazy]

@RC3

Did you get to the bottom of this?

Im wondering if it was better as the weather warmed..and it back now..??

 

[RC3]

Sorry for the delay in my response. Sadly no improvement with the warmer weather. We’ve replaced cam and crank shaft sensors, battery is in good health and I have a specialist changing my glow plugs. Hoping the glow plugs fix the problem!

 

[bugsymike]

Sorry for the delay in my response. Sadly no improvement with the warmer weather. We’ve replaced cam and crank shaft sensors, battery is in good health and I have a specialist changing my glow plugs. Hoping the glow plugs fix the problem!

Were they tested for power to them and continuity or are they just changing them anyway?

 

[RC3]

Sorry for the delay in my response. Sadly no improvement with the warmer weather. We’ve replaced cam and crank shaft sensors, battery is in good health and I have a specialist changing my glow plugs. Hoping the glow plugs fix the problem

Were they tested for power to them and continuity or are they just changing them anyway?

The idea was to test first then replace if necessary but sadly as soon as the wire came off the first one it snapped so we are getting that one drilled out and the rest will probably go the same way so it’s forced our hand to change them anyway

 

[RC3]

Still having no luck. We have a fully charged battery, brand new glow plugs, new crank and cam shaft sensors and new glow plug control unit. Fired in warm weather and fires by passing the glow plug control unit. Any suggestions on where we go next?

 

[varesecrazy]

Still having no luck.

fires by passing the glow plug control unit. Any suggestions on where we go next?

You 'bypass' the control unit..??


You give it direct power..and it then warms the plugs...??

Or something else??

 

[RC3]

You 'bypass' the control unit..??


You give it direct power..and it then warms the plugs...??

Or something else??

Which is okay for a temporary solution but ideally we’d like to figure out what’s causing the issue so it can be fixed

 

[varesecrazy]

Which is okay for a temporary solution but ideally we’d like to figure out what’s causing the issue so it can be fixed

I was asking if thats what you are doing to coax it into life..

Do you have a Maxi fuse near the battery.. that might be blown.. I have needed to repair one for Glowplugs in the past

Just put a meter probe either side to see if it passes 12 volts

 

[RC3]

I was asking if thats what you are doing to coax it into life..

Do you have a Maxi fuse near the battery.. that might be blown.. I have needed to repair one for Glowplugs in the past

Just put a meter probe either side to see if it passes 12 volts
View attachment 418304

Sorry my misunderstanding of your previous comment. We’ve checked every single fuse and all working as they should be! We are stumped!

 

[varesecrazy]

Sorry my misunderstanding of your previous comment. We’ve checked every single fuse and all working as they should be! We are stumped!

No problem


So.. do the glow plugs actually get 12 volts..?

Mine were not .. a failed glowplug had blown that Big @70 Amp fuse

Household fusewire did the job

 

[RC3]

Hi All,

Wanted to post an update as we have finally fixed the van.
After changing all the things listed above we still weren't getting anywhere so it went into a local garage. Garage confirmed due to water intake into the engine bay this had frozen round my timing belt tensioner and when I turned the van over in December during the very cold weather it cracked the tensioner and my timing belt jumped. We've now had a replacement timing belt, water pump and fuel pump (why not when it's all apart!) and they replaced a seal on the fuel system where we had a small leak.

If anyone happens to know where I can get a fiat ducato engine cover to prevent water accumulation that would be great!

 

[varesecrazy]

Water on the pulleys is not unusual..

Often causes engine damage.. :-(

 

[Ocwobio]

Water on the pulleys is not unusual..

Often causes engine damage.. :-(

I suspect DIY will be needed. There are likely to be many ideas on here, just have search. Either way, some good anti seize compound on the plug bodies and threads, will help, and the sooner you can get a shield on, the better.