Technical Ducato 1.9td starting procedure following replacement engine fit

[Rodney 2000]

Hi all,
I could do with some help again please. I have recently fitted a replacement engine in my 2000 fiat Ducato motor home….bent Conrod in the last engine made replacing it a quicker option. Engine has gone in well…all plumbed and wired in. Replacement engine has only 20000 in the clock and is exactly the same as removed one however the engine turns over but will not fire…I am aware I may well have air in the fuel lines etc but am really struggling to remove it. I’ve cracked injectors when turning over but am not getting any fuel, I’m aware that there may be other faults such as immobiliser interference etc but I’m stuck as to what to do next. Is there a way of bleeding the fuel system….some forum post mention bleed screws and hand pumps (I have not been able to find these). Is there a way to check the fuel pump is working etc? Hoping you guys can help me with next steps…..thanks in advance, (picture of fuel pump type attached)

 

[bugsymike]

Is it the original injector pump or the one on the replacement engine?
Have you got fuel up to the injector pump?
Does the pump fitted have a security cover over the end of the pump where the pipes to the injectors come out?
If you used your original pump not the one on the new engine, then the immobiliser side should be as before when engine ran.
If you don't want to fit the original pump and can remove the security cover without damaging what's behind it, you should find several wires coming into a circuit board but the part that needs power to work is the fuel shut off solenoid if you can access it.
Generally if power can reach that it will open the solenoid valve allowing fuel through the high pressure pump, there may be a bleeder on yours, but I can't recall off hand , however if power to the solenoid and all injector unions slackened, usually after a bit of cranking fuel should get to the injectors and if someone else is working the key, as you see each injector squirting clean fluid and tighten the pipe union it should come to life, assuming everything else is correct.
If new cambelt fitted is timing correct both valve and injector pump?

 

[varesecrazy]

Have you tried a whiff of aerosol fuel... ?

(Enough to get a little movement and heat.. Is all you want..)

If it dies instantly you are 95% looking at a fuel supply issue

Be it immobilised.. Or a basic blockage (like air)

One question..
@bugsymike , @Communicator

These immobilised Mechanical pumps... Does the tank lift pump still run

Or does it kill the lot?

Could be a useful diagnostic aid..

 

[bugsymike]

These immobilised Mechanical pumps... Does the tank lift pump still run

Or does it kill the lot?

Could be a useful diagnostic aid..

Regarding the 1.9td my knowledge (for what it is worth) was the the engine in Peugeot's 205,305,405s which generally had hand primers, so purely guessing the injector pump would draw fuel up as if fuel filter leaked under the bonnet then air would get into the system causing a start up followed by shortly dying.
What is the fuel filter arrangement, if like Peugeot it could have a button primer on the top of filter or a squeezy type like out board motor fuel tanks?

 

[Communicator]

Have you tried a whiff of aerosol fuel... ?

(Enough to get a little movement and heat.. Is all you want..)

If it dies instantly you are 95% looking at a fuel supply issue

Be it immobilised.. Or a basic blockage (like air)

One question..
@bugsymike , @Communicator

These immobilised Mechanical pumps... Does the tank lift pump still run

Or does it kill the lot?

Could be a useful diagnostic aid..

After some research, and interesting reading it seems that the injection pump mounted immobiliser does not inhibit a submersible fuel lift pump. My reasoning is that there are too few wires to do this (IGN+, key code receiver, and earth). Post #29, by @Mudplugger, on this thread is worth looking at.

Regarding the 1.9td my knowledge (for what it is worth) was the the engine in Peugeot's 205,305,405s which generally had hand primers, so purely guessing the injector pump would draw fuel up as if fuel filter leaked under the bonnet then air would get into the system causing a start up followed by shortly dying.
What is the fuel filter arrangement, if like Peugeot it could have a button primer on the top of filter or a squeezy type like out board motor fuel tanks?

I had the button style primer on my 1990 Talbot Express. In about 2004 after the engine cut out a couple of times, on first journey after the system had been reprimed, I was advised that the diaphragms on older pumps, could develop pinhole leaks. No problems after priming pump changed.

 

[Rodney 2000]

Is it the original injector pump or the one on the replacement engine?
Have you got fuel up to the injector pump?
Does the pump fitted have a security cover over the end of the pump where the pipes to the injectors come out?
If you used your original pump not the one on the new engine, then the immobiliser side should be as before when engine ran.
If you don't want to fit the original pump and can remove the security cover without damaging what's behind it, you should find several wires coming into a circuit board but the part that needs power to work is the fuel shut off solenoid if you can access it.
Generally if power can reach that it will open the solenoid valve allowing fuel through the high pressure pump, there may be a bleeder on yours, but I can't recall off hand , however if power to the solenoid and all injector unions slackened, usually after a bit of cranking fuel should get to the injectors and if someone else is working the key, as you see each injector squirting clean fluid and tighten the pipe union it should come to life, assuming everything else is correct.
If new cambelt fitted is timing correct both valve and injector pump?

Thanks for the response..... The pump came fitted to the replacement engine, which had had a cambelt and water pump replaced two thousand miles ago (8 months). I'm not sure if I have fuel to the injector pump....is there a way I can tell? The pump is untouched. all the secrity bolts, covers and wires and intact.

 

[Rodney 2000]

After some research, and interesting reading it seems that the injection pump mounted immobiliser does not inhibit a submersible fuel lift pump. My reasoning is that there are too few wires to do this (IGN+, key code receiver, and earth). Post #29, by @Mudplugger, on this thread is worth looking at.


I had the button style primer on my 1990 Talbot Express. In about 2004 after the engine cut out a couple of times, on first journey after the system had been reprimed, I was advised that the diaphragms on older pumps, could develop pinhole leaks. No problems after priming pump changed.

Thanks for getting back to me...can you tell me more about the fuel lift pump...is this a separate unit?. I am assuming that as the key and antenna etc have not been changed the immobilisers control unit should tell the solenoid in the diesel pump that the right key is being used?

 

[Rodney 2000]

After some research, and interesting reading it seems that the injection pump mounted immobiliser does not inhibit a submersible fuel lift pump. My reasoning is that there are too few wires to do this (IGN+, key code receiver, and earth). Post #29, by @Mudplugger, on this thread is worth looking at.


I had the button style primer on my 1990 Talbot Express. In about 2004 after the engine cut out a couple of times, on first journey after the system had been reprimed, I was advised that the diaphragms on older pumps, could develop pinhole leaks. No problems after priming pump changed.

I did try a bit of spray...it made a little bit of difference to turnover speed but did not fire. I'm cautious not to over use it as I think the pump should have fuel to lubricate it?

 

[Communicator]

Thanks for getting back to me...can you tell me more about the fuel lift pump...is this a separate unit?. I am assuming that as the key and antenna etc have not been changed the immobilisers control unit should tell the solenoid in the diesel pump that the right key is being used?

If I am understanding correctly, you have built a hybrid system with the original key code receiver, and a replacement pump mounted immobiliser. I am almost certain that this will not work, as I believe that the units are paired, but it would perhaps be better for you if I am wrong. On common rail engines, the code receiver verifies the key code against a stored list, and exchanges coded messages with the ECU.

 

[Communicator]

Thanks for getting back to me...can you tell me more about the fuel lift pump...is this a separate unit?. I am assuming that as the key and antenna etc have not been changed the immobilisers control unit should tell the solenoid in the diesel pump that the right key is being used?

In the early sixties my diesel Landrover had an engine mounted camshaft driven diapragm fuel lift pump. The CAV injection pump contained a transfer pump, followed by the actual injection segment. I have read of some engines not having a fuel lift pump, presumably they rely on the transfer pump to charge the injection section, or is it even simpler?
More modern diesel vehicles use a either a submersible or tank mounted lift pump. I think that Fiat only use the submersible option, but again I am willing to learn otherwise.

 

[Rodney 2000]

If I am understanding correctly, you have built a hybrid system with the original key code receiver, and a replacement pump mounted immobiliser. I am almost certain that this will not work, as I believe that the units are paired, but it would perhaps be better for you if I am wrong. On common rail engines, the code receiver verifies the key code against a stored list, and exchanges coded messages with the ECU.

that's not news I wanted to hear but it makes sense I suppose....so I am going to need to swap fuel pumps? or disable the pumps ability to immobilise itself?

 

[bugsymike]

In the early sixties my diesel Landrover had an engine mounted camshaft driven diapragm fuel lift pump. The CAV injection pump contained a transfer pump, followed by the actual injection segment. I have read of some engines not having a fuel lift pump, presumably they rely on the transfer pump to charge the injection section, or is it even simpler?
More modern diesel vehicles use a either a submersible or tank mounted lift pump. I think that Fiat only use the submersible option, but again I am willing to learn otherwise.

The Peugeot 1.9 TD engine in 206 model etc. has a primer at the fuel filter and once fuel is there then the Bosch injector pump draws up the fuel it's self from the tank.
So I would check what arrangement you have at the fuel filter for priming first, perhaps you could show us a photo of your fuel filter assembly.
If primed manually then either at the inlet to the injector pump or a bleeder on it you should see fuel coming up.
However if as I and @Communicator suspect you have a immobiliser mismatch then the choices are either to fit the original injector pump that matches your keys etc. or remove the security cover and bypass the immobilser on the pump already fitted.

 

[Communicator]

The Peugeot 1.9 TD engine in 206 model etc. has a primer at the fuel filter and once fuel is there then the Bosch injector pump draws up the fuel it's self from the tank.
So I would check what arrangement you have at the fuel filter for priming first, perhaps you could show us a photo of your fuel filter assembly.
If primed manually then either at the inlet to the injector pump or a bleeder on it you should see fuel coming up.
However if as I and @Communicator suspect you have a immobiliser mismatch then the choices are either to fit the original injector pump that matches your keys etc. or remove the security cover and bypass the immobilser on the pump already fitted.

Perhaps another possibility would be to very carefully remove both immobilisers and refit the old one so as to create a matched pair. Careful assessment would be required, and possibly not worth the hassle as against swapping pumps and retiming. New anti-tamper screws would be required, but not before testing.

 

[bugsymike]

Perhaps another possibility would be to very carefully remove both immobilisers and refit the old one so as to create a matched pair. Careful assessment would be required, and possibly not worth the hassle as against swapping pumps and retiming. New anti-tamper screws would be required, but not before testing.

As @Communicator says possibly not worth the hassle and easy to damage.
I have done it on a 1998 Ducato 2.8 Sofim engine Bosch pump that was going into my boat, but the engine and pump were all apart whilst being rebuilt.
So at the end I just had a simple solenoid to power up for engine starting as didn't want immobiliser issues eight miles out to sea.

 

[Rodney 2000]

If I am understanding correctly, you have built a hybrid system with the original key code receiver, and a replacement pump mounted immobiliser. I am almost certain that this will not work, as I believe that the units are paired, but it would perhaps be better for you if I am wrong. On common rail engines, the code receiver verifies the key code against a stored list, and exchanges coded messages with the ECU.

I’ve been thinking more about this issue. If I had had a fuel pump which had failed and therefore needed replacement, I assume there must be a way to recode the immobiliser system to recognise the new pump? Do you think this is something a fiat dealer could do via the ecu etc?

 

[varesecrazy]

I’ve been thinking more about this issue. If I had had a fuel pump which had failed and therefore needed replacement, I assume there must be a way to recode the immobiliser system to recognise the new pump? Do you think this is something a fiat dealer could do via the ecu etc?

As it stands.. I think you have lots of new parts.. Untested as it doesn't run

Yes.. There Must be a method for the main dealer to fit a new pump and get it Coded in to the system

However.. You've got a cost to get it there.. And the cost of the Coding.. Allied to the fact you may have a Secondary issue and it's now stuck at the Dealers

Personally I would be trying to get it running at your premises

 

[bugsymike]

It would be a license to print money I suspect as given the age of the vehicle few of the people working there would be familiar with it and parts from Fiat stores would be non existent in my opinion.

 

[Communicator]

I’ve been thinking more about this issue. If I had had a fuel pump which had failed and therefore needed replacement, I assume there must be a way to recode the immobiliser system to recognise the new pump? Do you think this is something a fiat dealer could do via the ecu etc?

The engine is a 1.9TD which is not a common rail engine, so no ECU, and no ports to connect to. As has already been suggested, given the age of the vehicle, it is unlikely that the necessary expertise will be available via dealers.

Link see post #5, but that was a long time ago. @moodrater has not posted for many years.

Before embarking on any transfers, or removal, is it possible to take the old injection pump, and connect it to the vehicle wiring, while resting in the engine bay? If it is then possible to detect the solenoid operation when turning the key, that would confirm that a working system could be built. How long would it survive? You are in a grey area, if you assume a design life for the electronics of 20 years......

The possible alternatives seem to be:
1. Swap the pumps, with the need to work on the cambelt, and confirm the precise pump timing.
2. Swap the immobilisers, which requires two immobilisers to be removed from the pumps, and one to be refitted on the replacement engine.
3. Remove the immobiliser.

 

[Rodney 2000]

The engine is a 1.9TD which is not a common rail engine, so no ECU, and no ports to connect to. As has already been suggested, given the age of the vehicle, it is unlikely that the necessary expertise will be available via dealers.

Link see post #5, but that was a long time ago. @moodrater has not posted for many years.

Before embarking on any transfers, or removal, is it possible to take the old injection pump, and connect it to the vehicle wiring, while resting in the engine bay? If it is then possible to detect the solenoid operation when turning the key, that would confirm that a working system could be built. How long would it survive? You are in a grey area, if you assume a design life for the electronics of 20 years......

The possible alternatives seem to be:
1. Swap the pumps, with the need to work on the cambelt, and confirm the precise pump timing.
2. Swap the immobilisers, which requires two immobilisers to be removed from the pumps, and one to be refitted on the replacement engine.
3. Remove the immobiliser.

Thanks again