Technical do you think heavy loads ruin the doblo flywheel faster ?

[crinklebender]

Im now about to fit my second DMF after just 10,000 miles since it was changed. .. the judders got worse when I had periods of using it is a van with pretty heavy loads.

the first lasted 30,000 and I had constant medium load as a campervan up till then, so it might have gone 60,000 (if its load dependent problem)

It does seem clear enough then, load a doblo up like a van and it wont last, but drive it like a car, and be smooth with your left foot of course.. and you can get 60-90,000 out of one.

What do you think... the DMF is a long standing problem, but loads are obviously going to play a role in the stress on the internal springs.

 

[ban1111]

something seriously wrong somewhere,DMFs shouldn't go wrong after 30k and shouldn't then go wrong with a replacement fitted for just 10k. there are millions upon millions of cars fitted with DMFs ,which run regular to 100k plus miles
As for payload playing a part well yes and no as long as you stuck to the legal payload limit it should have been fine. no logical reason why you have had two go in such low mileage....

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

What type of driving are you doing? Lots of stop start town driving?

 

[crinklebender]

What type of driving are you doing? Lots of stop start town driving?

yes, a lot.. I had been using it on multi-drop also. So much stop start I have to clear out the EGR gunk from inlet every year.

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

Probably the driving style killing it by the sounds of it

Not really that there is anything you're doing wrong per say.

 

[crinklebender]

something seriously wrong somewhere,DMFs shouldn't go wrong after 30k and shouldn't then go wrong with a replacement fitted for just 10k. there are millions upon millions of cars fitted with DMFs ,which run regular to 100k plus miles
As for payload playing a part well yes and no as long as you stuck to the legal payload limit it should have been fine. no logical reason why you have had two go in such low mileage....

there are long standing problems with dobbies and flywheel, just search this site. At first everybody thought it was clutch friction plate, but latterly bad flywheel setup.

I also exceed payload, sometimes or at least its on the limit.. the rear springs are re-enforced. Its a camper doblo, but it gets some heavier duty work. Still no different from what a workhorse small van should be made for. DMF and EGR are the primary problems with the 1.9JTD setup, even on others which use it like alfa have same problems.

My conclusion is as a van structure its good, but with the DMF springs are not up for commercial work and has weakened the 1.9JTD so it only has the driving core of a car, load wise and for stop start..

Anyway its currently not hard to source cheap DMF, at a low price that came of dobbies which had an easy life.

light leisure duty only for dobby in future, or i may sell it on when its sorted.

 

[ban1111]

there are long standing problems with dobbies and flywheel, just search this site. At first everybody thought it was clutch friction plate, but latterly bad flywheel setup.

I also exceed payload, sometimes or at least its on the limit.. the rear springs are re-enforced. Its a camper doblo, but it gets some heavier duty work. Still no different from what a workhorse small van should be made for. DMF and EGR are the primary problems with the 1.9JTD setup, even on others which use it like alfa have same problems.

My conclusion is as a van structure its good, but with the DMF springs are not up for commercial work and has weakened the 1.9JTD so it only has the driving core of a car, load wise and for stop start..

Anyway its currently not hard to source cheap DMF, at a low price that came of dobbies which had an easy life.

light leisure duty only for dobby in future, or i may sell it on when its sorted.

Had you had said it was a 1.3 engined job then in my mind big vehicle small engine mentality harsh use too much revs ect ect, the arc springs in the DMF could well have burned out their protective grease.
But its a 1.9 jtd! and 30k is ridiculously low 10K on a second DMF! either means poor fitting or worse scorned second-hand. Only a mug would fit a secondhand DMF as very few garages nevermind scrapeyards have a prper LUK tool for testing them.
Now as for the well known problem! i keep getting told this on numerous threads!
So how well known is it? i mean the doblo's been selling for over a decade frankly its not that big of a well known problem! if they were burning out their DMFs at a rate of 30k something would have been done.Fiat would be broke.it seems "well known" means it hapens but no idea how common it is.
What is well know though is that Fiat have never used extortionately high torque figurers in their range of vehicles going back a decade and a half and the introduction of Common rail engines offering high torque. as a result of that they tended to suffer less Dmf Failures than their rivals.
And as the 1.9 is the longest longevity of any Fiat Diesel one would not expect its lowest power rating with its lowest torque output to be as problematic as its more powerful offerings....
PS please don't fit a second-hand DMF..

 

[crinklebender]

Had you had said it was a 1.3 engined job then in my mind big vehicle small engine mentality harsh use too much revs ect ect, the arc springs in the DMF could well have burned out their protective grease.
But its a 1.9 jtd! and 30k is ridiculously low 10K on a second DMF! either means poor fitting or worse scorned second-hand. Only a mug would fit a secondhand DMF as very few garages nevermind scrapeyards have a prper LUK tool for testing them.
Now as for the well known problem! i keep getting told this on numerous threads!
So how well known is it? i mean the doblo's been selling for over a decade frankly its not that big of a well known problem! if they were burning out their DMFs at a rate of 30k something would have been done.Fiat would be broke.it seems "well known" means it hapens but no idea how common it is.
What is well know though is that Fiat have never used extortionately high torque figurers in their range of vehicles going back a decade and a half and the introduction of Common rail engines offering high torque. as a result of that they tended to suffer less Dmf Failures than their rivals.
And as the 1.9 is the longest longevity of any Fiat Diesel one would not expect its lowest power rating with its lowest torque output to be as problematic as its more powerful offerings....
PS please don't fit a second-hand DMF..

this is a known industry wide problem from the flywheels of a decade ago... google "honest john dual mass flywheel failure", there are many news trade news stories also. Even the motor factors that sell OEM admit they are useless, and you notice the newer designs are different now.

So Of course I am going to fit a second hand one. They are 350 a go new and dont last. thats just a fact. There is only the valeo OEM. the LUK is the same unit with a rebadge. I dont even want to say how cheap i can get a s/h unit for, but lets just say this bill will be 300 total including the clutch vs 800 the last time.

the sellers of the S/h units check the tension recoil, and play, if its no good it can go back, so no big deal. I will look into the valeo tool and see specifically what its going to detect that the manual methods cannot find. But it seems clear enough how to check them. they arent that complicated.

That last one fitted was an original valeo unit and after 6 months with a small PA being lugged around, the judder re-started... Now with another heavy week of loads Its getting annoying to drive, the judder will be wearing the clutch out, so it has about 6 months left if the driving is light.

 

[crinklebender]

maybe the smaller engines have less of a problem because they arent trying to cope with over 100HP of torque.

 

[crinklebender]

there we go...



At the end all the data is available.. I dont think we need that tool, with the LUK data we can tell if the replacement unit is done by measuring the free gap play, feel the tension vs a done unit, and if the end bearing comes out or not. Also check the up and down movement...there are youtube videos showing it.

As we can see from inside the unit its not complicated.

Better than forking out near the value of the entire vehicle for a part that will be done in no time.

 

[Niall_G]

Amazed at the above.

Mrs_Gs Doblo is on it's third clutch but still the original DMF.

 

[ban1111]

Luk brought out a testing tool for a reason.. Bmw.Audi Fiat you name them were sending back DMFs that when Luk checked them found 50% were still Ok.and therefore clearly somebody didn't find it easy to check the Dmf's
Warranty direct who source all there info properly afterall there in it to make money, well they cover the Dmf upto 100k or 10 year old cars . Never come across an exception because a make of car had known Dmf problems outside the fact they do wear out eventually mainly after 100k. infact in the indistry they say a new Dmf every second clutch.
One day I hope somebody will explain to me what "its well known" means where part failures are concerned as back in 2009 one so called me expert analysis had early Dmf failure as less then 1 per 250 cars! Wish I could remember where I saw that. Would you still consider it a well known problem if that was the rate of failure?

 

[crinklebender]

Luk brought out a testing tool for a reason.. Bmw.Audi Fiat you name them were sending back DMFs that when Luk checked them found 50% were still Ok.and therefore clearly somebody didn't find it easy to check the Dmf's
Warranty direct who source all there info properly afterall there in it to make money, well they cover the Dmf upto 100k or 10 year old cars . Never come across an exception because a make of car had known Dmf problems outside the fact they do wear out eventually mainly after 100k. infact in the indistry they say a new Dmf every second clutch.
One day I hope somebody will explain to me what "its well known" means where part failures are concerned as back in 2009 one so called me expert analysis had early Dmf failure as less then 1 per 250 cars! Wish I could remember where I saw that. Would you still consider it a well known problem if that was the rate of failure?

Overall rate of failure is not enough, we need more specific data on nature of commercial vehicle use, and whether they are being replaced out of warranty with very low miles.

Sure I know thats its the standard line "replace the DMF with the clutch", but this is not the problem here on the doblo. Just search this doblo forum for flywheel, clutch. A lot of us who give the vehicle heavier use were having the same problems. In particular taxi drivers were going through them every 30,000 or less also. They are not up to lots of stop start driving 50 times a day, or heavy loads. Also when you start the engine up thats when most torque goes through the DMF.

Maybe some of those DMF returned are OK, or maybe they test OK but dont actually work when implemented in the vehicle for commercial conditions. That is what a lot this fuss is about (and note the redesign of the DMF). nobody ever wants to admit liability in these matters, ever...unless its a recall for dangerous stuff. what you tend to see with poor design is dealers, manufacturers denying problems...then strangely as if by magic several years later the offending parts are re-designed and the problems suddenly dissapear ! The ford transit from 2003 had the same DMF problem as the dobby flywheel, and as a result there were solid flywheel replacements for those.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/caradvice/honestjohn/6417776/Dual-mass-flywheel-appeal.html

 

[Niall_G]

Mentioned this thread to the guy that services Mrs_G's Doblo - he confirmed we are still on the original DMF and offered the following:

In his experience failed DMFs have been caused by the engine not running correctly- suppose 1 cylinder in a 4 cylinder engine is down on power, the DMF will be getting uneven torque pulses and be subject to excessive movement and then simply wearing out quicker.

It might pay dividends to get your Doblo down to a diesel specialist and have them check out the injectors etc.

I hope you get the Doblo sorted.

ps. I can't view your blog - says I have to be invited.

 

[crinklebender]

Mentioned this thread to the guy that services Mrs_G's Doblo - he confirmed we are still on the original DMF and offered the following:

In his experience failed DMFs have been caused by the engine not running correctly- suppose 1 cylinder in a 4 cylinder engine is down on power, the DMF will be getting uneven torque pulses and be subject to excessive movement and then simply wearing out quicker.

It might pay dividends to get your Doblo down to a diesel specialist and have them check out the injectors etc.

I hope you get the Doblo sorted.

ps. I can't view your blog - says I have to be invited.

interesting, I need to check that out. However the DMF getting worse does correlate with times where the van had heavy load, but maybe different problems interact.

There is nothing on the blog now. need to remove that link. My camper conversion isnt the best design for general use anyway.. it suited me tho, as there is near full loading space left.

 

[SteveinTurkey]

I seem to remember a thread about the DMF somewhere on this site that said that the damage was caused by dynamic vibration of the engine between about 750 - 950 rpm.
These conditions are only seen during the following conditions:
1. on starting the engine,
2. during driving very slowly in too high a gear,
3. using insufficient revs on take off.

So, it seems that DMF damage could be due to driving style?

 

[crinklebender]

I seem to remember a thread about the DMF somewhere on this site that said that the damage was caused by dynamic vibration of the engine between about 750 - 950 rpm.
These conditions are only seen during the following conditions:
1. on starting the engine,
2. during driving very slowly in too high a gear,
3. using insufficient revs on take off.

So, it seems that DMF damage could be due to driving style?

doesnt fit with my pattern I know how to use the engine and box well enough.

It started to go after 6 months, after I had carried a heavy load of PA equipment... so even all the stop starts I do are not enough, unless stop starting 40 times in a day is worse than 40 times a month. I just dont think the unit good enough to commercial use. Its for sure worsened by heavy loads.

There was also taxi fleet owner here who had bought half a dozen dobbies, many of them developed this problem in 30,000 miles.

 

[ban1111]

Maybe its the area you live in as the taxi's around there also developed the same problems much earlier than one should expect. although being taxi's they would be lucky as no doubt fixed under warranty.. have found two Fiat forums in italian as yet not dugg up much, my italian not being brilliant and the tranlater being worse. But thought it would bw interesting to use as a comparison given the far larger market share FIAT have at home