General Dash led and engine performance

[jug]

From that picture of the marea engine would you say all the injectors are there? Sorry i couldnt tell when i was there although the connector and wiring was hanging in there.

the fuel rail is still fitted to the head, and you cant reomve injectors without first remving the fuel rail, so i would be very surprised if all 4 injectors are not there. few people wouold bother refiting the fuel rail to a scrap car once they have removed the injectors (why waste your time?)

I'm now considering buying one new injector and just trying that out to start with. Would that make much difference going from two and a half to perhaps three and a half? Or is it a bad idea to mix new and old?

personally i would not mix new and old, it leads to uneven running. plus your injector with 9.7ohms is already causing a real problem and should completely fail very soon.

Ive slowly driven the car for a few miles as it is now. Could this further damage the engine in any way or it should be ok as long as i dont go over 30mph?

my first bravo was used daily for more thna a yewar with a dead inejctor. all it killed was the spark plug and HT lead on that cylinder, and the cat was burnt from unburnt fuel igniting inside it.

Also my mot is due later this month. Would this type of engine fault fail the mot or it would still be allowed to pass?

it will fail on emissions.


you need to widen your search, phone every scrapyard and breaker within 30 miles using yell.com. one of them will have a 1.6 bravo brava or marea. i'm pretty sure you can use 1.6 stilo injectors too, i havent tried it personally but its the same engine as yours so they should be the same.

 

[evo149]

Thanks for that info jug. I had a feeling it would probably fail if i tried the mot. I have to get it sorted first.

Ive been phoning round lots of scrappies today. Nearly 20 so far but no luck with an exact match yet. One place has an N reg Brava 1.6 ELX with the engine untouched. Very similar to mine but I think its the series 1 (pic below)



The other one ive found is a W reg Brava SX.



The engine is part dismantled and looks different to mine. But not sure if the injectors would work from either of them? I will keep searching.

 

[jug]

the mk1 injectors will work, take them all if they all test ok and fit them as a matching set.

the other engine isnt a 1.6

 

[evo149]

I went back to get the injectors out of that brava today. Checked with the meter first and the injectors averaged 14.5ohms. Are they also close to the end of their life?

This is engine that i was removing them from:


and this is how far i got:




After this stage i couldnt work out how to get the fuel rail out. I must need to remove the lower manifold section aswell? But it was getting late and started to rain so i left. The yard owner told me they will probably be crushing the car soon. So if i go back the car might not be there.

How close was i to removing the injectors? I removed the five torx bolts in the middle but the lower five i wouldnt be able to fit the torx socket on. How is this done? I'm guessing i was about half way there.

cheers

 

[bluejohn125]

Well I'm all for learning about your car, doing it yourself and saving money by using good salvaged parts from a scrapyard, but I can't help thinking you're wasting a lot of time and effort trying to scavenge what are basically the wrong components from an old car that has been junked by its previous owner. While your car has been limping around on 2 cylinders, wasting petrol and potentially wrecking the CAT, you could have got proper, new Marelli injectors from Shop4Parts for about £74 plus VAT, probably delivered in a couple of days. Since yours is a decent, late model car I would have thought that this option would make far more sense.

Hopefully you'll get there in the end, and maybe you'll find the correct Mk2 injectors another time....

 

[jug]

Are they also close to the end of their life?

no, 14.5ohms is ok. could easily last a few years.

After this stage i couldnt work out how to get the fuel rail out. I must need to remove the lower manifold section aswell?

no, you can leave the lower manifold fitted to the head. disconnect the 2 fuel lines (or chop them off on the scrap car to make it easier) and reomve the 3 torx head bolts holding the fuel rail to the ehad, then slide the rail to the right until it is free. you may need to move the battery out the way (i dont personally).

How close was i to removing the injectors?

90% of the way there

I removed the five torx bolts in the middle but the lower five i wouldnt be able to fit the torx socket on. How is this done?

no need to reomve those bolts.

I'm guessing i was about half way there.

nah, you were very nearly finished.

I can't help thinking you're wasting a lot of time and effort trying to scavenge what are basically the wrong components from an old car that has been junked by its previous owner.

i appreciate your concerns however i have personally removed dozens of 1.6 injectors from scrapyard cars and sold them with no problems, and used them on my own car with no problems.

£74+VAT is a fortune when you can get a set of 4 for £20 at a scrapyard, saving you £320 (about a third of the car's value!). if the owner had that kind of money to throw away they wouldn't be driving an old fiat in the first place.

 

[evo149]

you could have got proper, new Marelli injectors from Shop4Parts for about £74 plus VAT, probably delivered in a couple of days. Since yours is a decent, late model car I would have thought that this option would make far more sense.

Too many bills to pay :yuck: But i agree in a way and thanks for the link. But i need to buy 2 of them. Add on the vat and delivery it would be around £180. Then fitting them myself with no removal practice to fall back on. The yard owner said he will do them for £10 a piece. Cheaper and learn more. But i understand there is a small risk.

no, you can leave the lower manifold fitted to the head. disconnect the 2 fuel lines (or chop them off on the scrap car to make it easier) and reomve the 3 torx head bolts holding the fuel rail to the ehad, then slide the rail to the right until it is free. you may need to move the battery out the way (i dont personally).

So close and yet so far. Thanks for the tip. Cant remember seeing those 3 bolts for the rail. I will need to check more carefully next time. I hope they havent crushed the car when i get a chance to go back later this week.

 

[evo149]

Good news. Yesterday i found another car at a yard my friend told me about. It was a T reg Brava HSX 100 16v. Engine looks exactly like mine and it must be a mk2. So ive taken a bit of a gamble and bought the set of injectors with the fuel rail. They all tested at around 14.5ohms. A bit lucky to have found that car.

Not too difficult taking them out this time. Very tight squeeze getting the rail out though and the fuel line nut is too tight to open while the rail is fitted. Couple of pics below:




Today had a go at taking my own out, just random pics:






Now i'm thinking should i use the fuel rail that i took out of the other car or use my own rail with the salvage injector set? They are both exactly the same Weber fuel rails from what i can tell.

Just a few other queries if anyone could answer please:
1. After undoing those metal hose clips, how do i clip them back on? They seem very tight.
2. If any debris or dust were to fall into the part where the injectors sit in the engine, would this be bad? i cant tell for sure but it was very dusty and lots of grit and dirt around that area.
3. One of the injectors didnt have a locking clip on the bottom, the other three did. Does this matter or they should all have locking clips when refitting?
4. This is the pipe going from the oil filler tube that was removed. But all that gooy stuff in there is it bad?



I will try and repost an update soon.
cheers

 

[jug]

They all tested at around 14.5ohms. A bit lucky to have found that car.

yep, a nice bit of luck

Not too difficult taking them out this time.

that's the benefit of prior experience.

Now i'm thinking should i use the fuel rail that i took out of the other car or use my own rail with the salvage injector set? They are both exactly the same Weber fuel rails from what i can tell.

it makes no difference. they are the same. if the new injectors are still fited to the new fuel rail then why waste time swapping the injectors over, just fit the entire fuel rail complete with injectors.

make sure each injector still has its rubber sealing ring attached to ensure a fuel tight fit against the head.

Just a few other queries if anyone could answer please:
1. After undoing those metal hose clips, how do i clip them back on? They seem very tight.
2. If any debris or dust were to fall into the part where the injectors sit in the engine, would this be bad? i cant tell for sure but it was very dusty and lots of grit and dirt around that area.
3. One of the injectors didnt have a locking clip on the bottom, the other three did. Does this matter or they should all have locking clips when refitting?
4. This is the pipe going from the oil filler tube that was removed. But all that gooy stuff in there is it bad?

1. you can get hose clip pliers, which are designed for the job. alternatively you can use some normal pliers to clip them shut. its more fiddly that way, but you can do it.

2. before you remove your injectors blast air to clear as much debris as possible. i use my compressor with an air jet gun for this job. a good DIY alternative is a long straw and your own blowing power. allowing debris to enter the clyinders can lead to it scoring the clyinder and damaging the piston rings, causing a loss of compression, and hence performance and fuel economy.

3. they should all have locking clips, although in theory once the fuel rail is fitted the clips serve no purpose. they are only there so that the injectors remain attached to the fuel rail when you pull it away from the head.

4. that is caused by moisture entering the oil. it is to be expected on an engine that has not been used for some time. dont worry about it.

 

[evo149]

Thanks for all those extra pointers jug and to everyone for their help. I've managed to fit the fuel rail and injectors from the donor car. All the injectors when tested before fitting were around 14.7-14.9ohms. Cleaned them all up and fitted them last week. Car started up fine and the injector light went off, the engine sound back to normal. Driven several miles over the weekend and car was really nippy. No problems with the engine sound and fault light never came on.

One slight problem today. Started up the car and the problem was back. The engine sound changed and the fault light was back on. I switched off the engine and checked the injector readings. They showed the following:

1.. 16.7ohms
2.. 16.9ohms
3.. dead at first then after a while 23.5 - 51.6ohms (erratic)
4.. 16.5ohms


The third injector didnt show a reading at first. Then after trying for about five minutes it started showing. I started up the car again and the engine was back to normal and the fault light had gone back off.

Before fitting I remember noticing that three of the donor injectors had two holes and one of them had four holes. The old ones that i removed from my own car all had two holes. So i'm guessing someone had already replaced one injector on the donor car before it was scrapped. But i fitted all the donor injectors as they were. Could this cause a problem in the future?

Also when removing the old fuel rail it was very difficult to pull out from the engine. In the end i had to put a crowbar under the rail and lever it away from the engine. When fitting the new rail should it be just as tight before fitting the bolts? Although there has been no fuel leakage as far as i can tell.

I'm hoping the new injectors are good and the problem doesnt come back again. But I havent booked in for an MOT yet just in case. What should i do?

 

[Keiran02]

Hi I Also Get This Light But It Appears Maybe Once A Month Then Go's Away After The Engine Has Been Turned Off Then Back On Again! Also Would This Acount For Me Getting Around 18 MPG????

Btw It's A 98 Brava 1.4 12v

 

[jug]

1.. 16.7ohms
2.. 16.9ohms
3.. dead at first then after a while 23.5 - 51.6ohms (erratic)
4.. 16.5ohms


The third injector didnt show a reading at first. Then after trying for about five minutes it started showing. I started up the car again and the engine was back to normal and the fault light had gone back off.

high resistance is usually due to a poor connection, such as dirt or rust on the wiring connector. the fact it started working after you interfered with it also suggests a dodgy connection is the issue.

Before fitting I remember noticing that three of the donor injectors had two holes and one of them had four holes. The old ones that i removed from my own car all had two holes. So i'm guessing someone had already replaced one injector on the donor car before it was scrapped. But i fitted all the donor injectors as they were. Could this cause a problem in the future?

no, dont worry about it. you could always fit one of your good 2 hole injectors if it makes you feel better, but personally i'd wait until one fails ands then do it.

Also when removing the old fuel rail it was very difficult to pull out from the engine. In the end i had to put a crowbar under the rail and lever it away from the engine. When fitting the new rail should it be just as tight before fitting the bolts? Although there has been no fuel leakage as far as i can tell.

it is often that tight when removing, but refitting is a simple case of tightening the bolts up. you'd know if it wasn't sealing aganst the head correctly, the vacuum leak causes a high idle, often so high that it cuts out.

I'm hoping the new injectors are good and the problem doesnt come back again. But I havent booked in for an MOT yet just in case. What should i do?

wait and see. if it happens again give the wiring a good wiggle. if that cures it then its possible you have damaged the wiring harness, in which case that spare wiring on the other fuel rail will come in very handy.

 

[jug]

Hi I Also Get This Light But It Appears Maybe Once A Month Then Go's Away After The Engine Has Been Turned Off Then Back On Again! Also Would This Acount For Me Getting Around 18 MPG????

Btw It's A 98 Brava 1.4 12v

no, on the 1.4 there is only 1 injector and its fairly bullet proof.

please start a new thread adding as much detail as possible and we will examine your issue seperately.

 

[evo149]

wait and see. if it happens again give the wiring a good wiggle. if that cures it then its possible you have damaged the wiring harness, in which case that spare wiring on the other fuel rail will come in very handy.

Hi, i think the problem has returned. Whenever i start the car its back to its old misfiring sound with the fault light. I've checked all the injectors again and they are fine except for that one. Sometimes it shows readings of 47~107ohms and they vary depending on cold start or warm. The wiring harness in at the moment is the one that came from the donor car, along with the donor fuel rail and injectors. I still have my own fuel rail and harness though.

When i switch off the engine and listen sometime i can hear a bubbling sound coming from near the throttle body or under the manifold then it stops. Is this normal? Not sure what to do at the moment.

 

[jug]

Hi, i think the problem has returned. Whenever i start the car its back to its old misfiring sound with the fault light. I've checked all the injectors again and they are fine except for that one. Sometimes it shows readings of 47~107ohms and they vary depending on cold start or warm. The wiring harness in at the moment is the one that came from the donor car, along with the donor fuel rail and injectors. I still have my own fuel rail and harness though.

personally i would swap the wiring harness over and also replace the injector (you still have 2 spares right?) just to be sure.

When i switch off the engine and listen sometime i can hear a bubbling sound coming from near the throttle body or under the manifold then it stops. Is this normal? Not sure what to do at the moment.

sounds like the coolant is bubbling somewhere. you could try bleeding the cooling system to remove any air.

 

[evo149]

personally i would swap the wiring harness over and also replace the injector (you still have 2 spares right?) just to be sure.

sounds like the coolant is bubbling somewhere. you could try bleeding the cooling system to remove any air.

Earlier this week, with the engine running I seem to remember pushing down on the HT leads and the engine noise changed. Could a dodgy lead or pushing down to secure leads cause an injector to blow?

Yesterday I removed the fuel rail again and tested the injectors directly. Turns out one of the injectors was dead (second one from the fuel line). Yes i had two good spares from the original set so i replaced it with one of those. Before refitting the set that is in now they all tested at around 14.7ohms.

I also tested current is flowing to each terminal on the wiring harness. My original harness had a tough bend in it and the rubber part on the connector was breaking off so i decided to keep the donor harness on for now.

After refitting started the car and engine is running smoothly again, no fault light and no misfire. Hopefully all is well

A few other questions if anyone can answer please:
1. Could it be the car may continue to blow injectors regularly?
2. What would be the most likely cause if it blew another injector?
3. Anyone tried Redex fuel cleaner, recommended or not?
4. Would it be better to renew the fuel filter?

cheers

 

[scottyworld]

Hi Have been following your post with interest as I have to do exactly the same to mine.... could you let me know what size the torx bolt was, as I need to go out and get a tool to do the job. Cheers

 

[jug]

Earlier this week, with the engine running I seem to remember pushing down on the HT leads and the engine noise changed. Could a dodgy lead or pushing down to secure leads cause an injector to blow?

no.

A few other questions if anyone can answer please:
1. Could it be the car may continue to blow injectors regularly?
2. What would be the most likely cause if it blew another injector?
3. Anyone tried Redex fuel cleaner, recommended or not?
4. Would it be better to renew the fuel filter?

1. its a 1.6 so it will very probably happen again at some point. how soon is anyone's guess, could be today could be 2015.

2. the problem appears to be due to the ecu sending too much current and cooking the injectors. they are only elecromagnetic valves, so they are sensitive to excess current flow.

3. redex is just 95% kerosene. adding it to your fuel means it cant clean anything, but it wont hurt. traditionally you pour redex down your sparkplug holes to clean the valves and cylinders (it even used to say that on the bottle). that is the only way to make it really do anything. minute quantities in your fuel makes bugger all difference (if you be honest with yourself you knew that already)

4. you cant renew your fuel filter. its built into the fuel pump in the tank.

 

[evo149]

Hi I Also Get This Light But It Appears Maybe Once A Month Then Go's Away After The Engine Has Been Turned Off Then Back On Again! Also Would This Acount For Me Getting Around 18 MPG????

Btw It's A 98 Brava 1.4 12v

My car was like that earlier this year. It only misfired occasionally for the first couple of minutes after starting. After a few more months it began misfiring constantly.

Hi Have been following your post with interest as I have to do exactly the same to mine.... could you let me know what size the torx bolt was, as I need to go out and get a tool to do the job. Cheers

It was T30 and T40 torx sockets. The smaller torx is for the fuel rail. Easier than i thought it would be. But thats due to all the advice given by members on here. Any other queries just ask i will try my best.

3. redex is just 95% kerosene. adding it to your fuel means it cant clean anything, but it wont hurt. traditionally you pour redex down your sparkplug holes to clean the valves and cylinders (it even used to say that on the bottle). that is the only way to make it really do anything. minute quantities in your fuel makes bugger all difference (if you be honest with yourself you knew that already)

Ha thats good to know. I might try it. So if i remove all the plugs how much redex should i pour into each plughole? Then after refitting the plugs and starting will i notice any difference?



cheers

 

[jug]

So if i remove all the plugs how much redex should i pour into each plughole? Then after refitting the plugs and starting will i notice any difference?

on the bottle the instructions used to say something along the lines of;

remove sparkplugs
pour 50ml into each plug hole
cover engine with a towel (to stop redex going everywhere- dont let the towel go too close to a plug hole or it may get sucked in)
crank engine using starter motor continuously for 30secs
wait 1 min
crank engine using starter motor continuously for 30secs
replace plugs
start engine and hold idle at 2000rpm for 30 secs

you'll see loads of white smoke coming out when you start the enigne, that is just the redex burning off. when you take it for a drive there will be more white smoke, but dont worry it soon clears.

afterwards your valves will be cleaner and seal better, giving you better compression, increasing fuel economy and performance.

if you have a slight head gasket leak at one of the cylinders then doing this redex method can make it suddenly get a lot worse because you remove the crap that was helping to seal the leak. other than that its harmless, after all its only kerosene.