Technical Cutting out at motorway speeds

[Calecosse]

Hello all

I am looking for some help with my wife's 2013 panda, 1.2l petrol. It has developed a really weird fault where it randomly cuts out when travelling at motorway speeds, when it happens it throws up the engine light and looses all power but stays running then when you stop the engine dies rather than it being in limp mode. When scanned it just says random missfire with no other codes.

I have also ran it with a scanner plugged in and reading live data and the only thing that seems odd is that the ignition timing seems to jump around all over the place and can go from anywhere from 0 to 50 odd degrees.

I have put on coils, leads, plugs and a cam position sensor but before going on too far with just putting new bits on I'm wondering if anyone has experienced anything similar? Running round town it runs perfect, no missfires or anything it is just when we have been doing motorway speeds, even then it is usually after 20 minutes or so.

Thanks

 

[varesecrazy]

Hi

I will ask about a recent cambelt change..

It MIGHT just be related..

Otherwise it sounds pretty random

(Our 63 plate does similar.. but its a twinair)

Just loses the twinairs 'oomph'..
Idles ok.. and turning on and off helps


My MES software wont rrad any useful info.. so will be interested in your findings

 

[KPat]

Years ago I had a Toyota that did this. The engine would die at motorway speeds then pick up again when I slowed right down. It turned out to be a clogged fuel filter. I don't know if Pandas have a fuel filter but could still be fuel system related.

 

[Calecosse]

Thanks for replying. It had a new belt and everything about 3 years ago so is about in the middle of the interval.

It's honestly the weirdest thing because it runs absolutely fine all the time except at motorway speed. It's almost like it's running a diagnostic or something at the motorway speed and sees something it doesn't like and throws a wobbly. You can then literally start it straight back up and all is fine again. When it first did it we were on the way back from Manchester airport on the m6 and it did it once, then I started it back up and was fine for about 15 minutes then did it again. We had the RAC out (who were next to useless, long story ) so I ended up driving home staying around 50 mph and it ran faultlessly back at that.

I'm hopefully borrowing a snap on scanner that reads codes not throwing the light up which might show what's going on in the background.

 

[Calecosse]

Years ago I had a Toyota that did this. The engine would die at motorway speeds then pick up again when I slowed right down. It turned out to be a clogged fuel filter. I don't know if Pandas have a fuel filter but could still be fuel system related.

This was actually one of my first thoughts, i think they dont actually have a fuel filter i think its just in the pump pick up. I have put some injector cleaner in to see if that helps but so far hasn't made a difference. It might be that I have to take the tank out and have a look at the pump. The cars only usually used for round town and small distances but my wife's got a job now that involves the odd drive to opposite ends of the country so I'm finding myself driving down the motorway specifically trying to get it to break down to see what's happening .

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Does sound a bit like a contaminated filter just sucking up that final wee bit of dirt enough to drop fuel pressure but then when the engine cuts and the pump stops sucking some of the muck floats away from the filter so she starts up again and goes on running, until the fuel demand is constantly high volume again, when it repeats. Pandas do have a filter built into the pump/pickup unit in the tank. It's said to be a "lifetime" fitment with no service interval. I believe a new pump assembly comes with one fitted and I don't think you can buy the filter on it's own? Looks difficult to attempt to get at the filter anyway? Does your scanner display live running fuel pressure - I'm not sure if the system actually has a fuel pressure sensor?

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Just ran MES for your vehicle in simulate mode and couldn't find a parameter listed for fuel pressure. Looks like it would have to be monitored with a gauge on the fuel rail. I'm just wondering if it might be the crank sensor? It's not unusual to find a dodgy crank sensor playing up once well heat soaked. However you say all you've got to do is allow the engine to stop - so, of course, the fuel pump will stop sucking - and then you can pretty much start it up right away and it drives normally? That doesn't sound so much like a Crank pos sensor as it won't have had enough time to cool back down again.

 

[varesecrazy]

Fuel starvation would fit your basic symptom..

But ..IF .. the timing is ACTUALLY wandering about.. that would be different


Are you in Scotland?

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Stab in the dark, but I can't think of anything else offhand, could it be a faulty connection/dodgy wire etc in one of the sensor circuits (cam or crank)? But then why does it only do it at higher speeds and with prolonged running?

Mind you, I don't think our OP has scanned with something like MES? I'm sure we've all seen posts on here about misleading codes and interpretations thrown up by generic scanners. I've experienced this myself when trying to scan our Fiats with the generic OBD2 scanner built into my VCDS package. Whilst I find it very good with my boy's Astra it really doesn't like the Fiats.

Do let us know if the Snap On scanner turns anything up.

Charlie, were you asking the OP if he is in Scotland. States Swadlincote on his avatar, or are you picking up on "Wife's got job involves driving to opposite ends of the country"?

 

[bugsymike]

Hello all

I am looking for some help with my wife's 2013 panda, 1.2l petrol. It has developed a really weird fault where it randomly cuts out when travelling at motorway speeds, when it happens it throws up the engine light and looses all power but stays running then when you stop the engine dies rather than it being in limp mode. When scanned it just says random missfire with no other codes.

I have also ran it with a scanner plugged in and reading live data and the only thing that seems odd is that the ignition timing seems to jump around all over the place and can go from anywhere from 0 to 50 odd degrees.

I have put on coils, leads, plugs and a cam position sensor but before going on too far with just putting new bits on I'm wondering if anyone has experienced anything similar? Running round town it runs perfect, no missfires or anything it is just when we have been doing motorway speeds, even then it is usually after 20 minutes or so.

Thanks

Tend to agree with Puggit Old Jock? re crank sensor possibly, in the past I had a customer with a 1.2 Corsa that would regularly die at the same junction on the way to work but restart when breakdown arrived and engine had time to cool down. Wasted £200+ with "diagnostic expert" then took to dealer who correctly diagnosed and fitted crank sensor, no further problem. More recently I had a totally reliable 1.9 Doblo MPV die to a halt during a fast 100 mile journey, managed to coast to safety, ten minutes later it restarted and got back home, fitted new crank sensor and no further troubles. They seem to run good for a long time then die when hot, but usually restart when cooled down. May not be your answer but could be a cheap fix to try.

 

[Calecosse]

Thanks for all your replies guys! I think I will put a crank sensor on @Pugglt Auld Jock @bugsymike just because it is a cheap easy option and if anything rules it out. A break in the loom is also something that crossed my mind, the only thing I thought though is I'd assume that would throw a permanent engine management light up/missfire as the ecu would be unable to find whichever sensor it is and throw a wobbly or at least regularly misfire when going over bumps etc, I could be wrong though. I must admit that I hope its not a loom issue as it could be a pig to find!

The fuel thing I do think is also really plausible and one of the main things that I think would match up to the symptoms, especially as a switch off and fire up again and it's all good. @Pugglt Auld Jock I need to double check on the scanner I've been using because I'm sure I had fuel pressure on there and it drops to zero when the issue happens but I couldn't decide if it was zero because the car cut out or the car cut out because it dropped to zero. I know its not something that always works but I have chucked some injector cleaner in so I'll give that a chance to run through as well and see if it makes a difference.

Hopefully I can get a shot of the snap on scanner on Friday and see if that gives any other answers.

The only other thing I thought was maybe it could be a CAT issue that when it's running at motorway speeds picks up something emissions wise it doesn't like then shuts down, but I guess that would throw up the CAT light as well and it hasn't.

@varesecrazy I am actually based in swadlincote in South Derbyshire but originally born in Aberdeen which is where the ecosse bit comes in, I always get asked that question on forums!

Thanks again for all the responses!

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

The only other thing I thought was maybe it could be a CAT issue that when it's running at motorway speeds picks up something emissions wise it doesn't like then shuts down, but I guess that would throw up the CAT light as well and it hasn't.

The only thing, as far as I know, which a "bad" cat will be picked up by is the post cat O2 sensor and, again to the best of my knowledge, what that will do is store a fault code and light up the MIL. I don't think it would affect engine running at all - Unlike the pre cat O2 sensor which has a trimming effect on the fueling so does have the potential to "interfere" with engine running. I would expect to see the post cat O2 sensor giving a straight line readout and probably somewhere in the mid to higher voltage range (Expected O2 sensor voltage range would be 0.1 to 0.9 volts so expect a post cat to be showing above 0.5 volts but more than anything it should be virtually straight lined. Of course we are talking about a hot engine here so the cat will be active and the ECU will have gone "closed loop". A failed cat will give a wavy line when graphed which will mimic the pre cat sensor output (may be somewhat reduced in amplitude though as a failed cat may still have some residual effect going on?)

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

My 2005 1.2 4x4 did this... fine until at 70mph and taking a specific gentle bend on the A1 motorway, when it would cut out, go into limp mode and I'd head for the hard shoulder. Turn off turn on -- all was fine and I'd carry on into work. Same for three days, in the same place each time.

It turned out to be a broken electrical connection on a fuel injector, which momentarily lost contact owing to the G-force while taking that bend at the 'right' speed.

Maybe something similar is happening for you?

 

[richardblack]

Hello.
Sorry to break into your discussion but I have a similar problem.
My 2012 Panda Pop has been doing this for years. At first only when my wife drove it and revved it hard. Then it was mainly at higher motorway speeds. On our journey down to Hampshire yesterday it did it several times even after I slowed down to 60ish from about 70. I even had to resort to just carefully switching the ignition off and on without stopping as the traffic was so busy I couldn't get onto the hard shoulder.
It sounds like your problem exactly. At first Stoneacre insisted it was due to the battery being faulty. I replaced the battery which made no difference. I can't come up with any driving technique which makes it happen although it only happens on A roads very rarely.
Did changing your sensor fix it?
Thank you
Richard Black

 

[Calecosse]

Hi all. Sorry for being so long with aresponse on this. I'd been laid up for a bit unwell so couldn't get on the car. I have changed the crank position sensor and that seems to have solved it. Its still only done town driving since but I did about 40 minutes of dual carriageway driving after doing the sensor for a test and it never missed a beat, before this would have been long enough to show problems so fingers crossed that's sorted it. Wish I'd had just done crank sensor first!

Thanks again for everyone's help, hopefully that's that now but I'll just leave the wife to use it as normal and see what happens.

@richardblack no worries on jumping on this thread, I'd definitely say its worth checking a crank sensor on anyway. May not be the cause but it was about 20 quid and took literally 5 minutes to fit. Not sure what model yours is bit my wife's is a mk4 with euro 5 engine and the sensor was on a small bracket at the bottom of the engine pointing at the crank pulley.

Let us know on this thread how you get on!

 

[richardblack]

Thanks so much for getting back. I'm sorry to hear that you have been ill. I hope you have fully recovered.
I will get a sensor (as you say, they are cheap) and see if it works.
I'm not sure if I said but Stoneacre kept telling me that it was a faulty battery that they wanted to replace for £150!). Eventually I did replace the battery some 5 years later with no improvement.
I hope it works and will feed back either way. It may take a while as, living in the middle of Lincolnshire, I don't get onto motorways much and the problem only shows after quite a lot of miles.

Thanks very much for taking the time to get back.
Richard

 

[koalar]

Does sound a bit like a contaminated filter just sucking up that final wee bit of dirt enough to drop fuel pressure but then when the engine cuts and the pump stops sucking some of the muck floats away from the filter so she starts up again and goes on running, until the fuel demand is constantly high volume again, when it repeats. Pandas do have a filter built into the pump/pickup unit in the tank. It's said to be a "lifetime" fitment with no service interval. I believe a new pump assembly comes with one fitted and I don't think you can buy the filter on it's own? Looks difficult to attempt to get at the filter anyway? Does your scanner display live running fuel pressure - I'm not sure if the system actually has a fuel pressure sensor?

On my older car the pump only has two electrical functions. One for the motor and one for the fuel gauge

Pressure switches the motor on and off via a mechanical diaphragm

You can indirectly check the pressure via the injector timing. The lower the pressure the longer the timing but the rest of the car has to be running okay

 

[andyhad]

Hi, I know it's been a year since the last post but did the crank sensor cure the issue? I have exactly the same problem going on at present!!

 

[varesecrazy]

@richardblack

 

[Calecosse]

Hi, I know it's been a year since the last post but did the crank sensor cure the issue? I have exactly the same problem going on at present!!

Hi Andy, yes it did. It was fine for almost exactly a year then randomly about a fortnight ago did it again and broke down on her. Put another one on and have done about 300 miles of motorway driving since and has been good as gold. I put it down to cheap euro car parts parts. It was a 5 minute job though, takes longer to get the jack out the car than change the sensor!