Technical cooling number 4

[fingers99]

As you know, I don't much trust the MF2.

Apart from careful maintenance, there's probably not a lot you can do apart from prayers to the god of small engines.

Going MPI with something like Megasquirt or Emerald would be a big help.

One thing that is in your favour is the Mahle pistons your car has. And didn't Aaron and Emma put in an inlet temperature guage to keep an eye on?

I just thought: you must have had the car for nearly 3 months now: time for an oil and filter change!

 

[J333EVO]

Yes Martins car does benefit from having dished Mahle pistons rather than machined flat Fiat pistons, so in theory should be better with better squelch and thicker piston crown.

 

[fingers99]

Apropos the vapour in the catch tank, one of the (relatively few) funny things in Bell is the Australian racing custom of draining the oil, putting it in a metal pan and placing the pan on the barbie to evaporate off all the fuel and water it's picked up!

I guess you then need to strain it to get all the flies and redbacks out!

 

[fingers99]

Here's a thought. :idea:

MPI Seis have a knock sensor. You know this, but, essentially the sensor detects knock in the engine and the ECU does something (either increase fuelling or retard the ignition or whatever) to eradicate the problem. Knock = pre-ignition which is the bug bear of the turbo Cinqs, and high performance engines in general. You may have the drilling (I expect you have the boss, even if untapped) on your block.

While I can't see any easy way of getting one to interface with an SPI ECU, I'm sure the electronics folks here (or, if not, try the Magasquirt forums) can work out a way of getting one to work a simple warning light in the cockpit. I've got a sensor with your name on it (Martin) if you can find a way of doing it.

 

[randomizered]

A guy called Boris, from Canada, makes a knock sensor filter circuit for MS. you have to give him your CC, bore etc, and he builds and tunes the circuit for you. The advantage, its a tiny standalone unit, that support a warning light output

I haven't fitted mine yet, and it was setup for the 1242, but I will be at some point.

I'll find the cost of it for you in a minute.

Kristian

 

[randomizered]

tada

http://www.viatrack.ca/

may be of use to you

 

[fingers99]

Brilliant!

 

[allanhelen]

That seems like quite a simple and cost effective way, I'll have look when i get back home to see if i have the bit on the block. I know roughly where it should be (around the back in the middle) but what am i looking for and what would a fitted one look like?

if the bits are there i'll give it a go

 

[randomizered]

your looking for a single bolt hole, on the rear of the block, pretty central vertically and horizontally between 2+3.

The knock sensor can be seen in the link, and is held on by one bolt into the block, through its centre.

If you don't have it, you probably have a balnk, that can be drilled and tapped...or another bolt hole nearby.

Kristian

 

[randomizered]

OK, this is my old 1242 16v block, but they are the same casting. The knock bolts where highlighted....fingers crossed you have one there. If not, you may be able to share one of the alternator bracket bolt holes?

Not exactly where I said, so good job i grabbed a pic



Kristian

 

[fingers99]

Just checked on ancient Cinq block and there isn't a boss, let alone a tapping (so nowt to tap into).

However, I can't see any reason you can't use the alternator mounting bolt plate nearest the centre of the engine, providing you're careful about torque: I'm pretty sure you're not supposed to tighten these as much as a bolt holding a 3mm steel plate on! I'll see if I can find the values somewhere.

 

[fingers99]

This

should give you an idea of where everything is. On this Sei 1100 block the thing hanging down by the blue and brown wires is the knock sensor and connector, the boss and hole in between (and above) the core plugs is the mounting point, while the inboard mounting point for the alternator bracket is where I suggest you put it. So far I've found no torque values.........

 

[randomizered]

Exactly the same place as on mine above then

I don't have it handy as i;ve only ever had it from the library, but the Haynes Punto mk2 workshop manual has the torques in it for the sensor. It's not tight, something like 20nm off the top of my head.

Kristian

 

[allanhelen]

20nm that would be nipped up then

I've had a feel (as it's impossible to see from the top) and there doesn't feel to be a boss there but providing the weather is OK this weekend i'll be swoping the front brake calipers (or that might be next weekend if i decide to swop the disks too) so i'll crawl under and have a proper look

so I suppose i'd have to use the alternator bracket so that would mean nipped up with a bucket load of thread lock then?

I've been thinking a bit more about this too, is the sensor position critical or providing it's on the block somewhere is that is ok?

Given that the little controllers are adjustable how do you know where to set it so it acts as a warning rather than just being an oh cr*p light

 

[arc]

knock sensors are not *that* easy to set up. They are tuned to the cylinder bore size (so if you are hunting for one, get one off a similar car). Some advanced systems can work out which cylinder is knocking and only adjust fuel for that one. They should *really* be central on the block, and to set them up.. you'd have to induce knock.

 

[fingers99]

so I suppose i'd have to use the alternator bracket so that would mean nipped up with a bucket load of thread lock then?

I've been thinking a bit more about this too, is the sensor position critical or providing it's on the block somewhere is that is ok?

Given that the little controllers are adjustable how do you know where to set it so it acts as a warning rather than just being an oh cr*p light

I'd use thread lock anyway, but it should stay put even if it doesn't do a lot to hold the bracket on (you've 2 other bolts to do that). Should be OK in terms of placement, after all, it'll pick up numbers 1 and 4 from the existing location.

You need to talk to Boris about the other, but a sensor should pick up knock way before you can hear it. The onus is on you to come off the loud pedal!

There probably is a way of turning the sensor et al into an inject water/methanol/toluene/avgas now mechanism, if you do the research and spend the money...........

 

[randomizered]

Yep, the bolt is thread locked from the factory.

the knock sensor is pretty much just a sensitive microphone, its the circuits job to filter the normal noises out, and only listen for the knock, so I presume pretty much any sensor would be ok.

If it can listen from its stock position, to the outer two cylinders, then i'm sure the sound travels pretty well thought the block, so moving it down slightly shouldn't harm too much, just try and keep it central.

If there is no mounting place possible on the cinq block, perhaps some kind of hold down bracket could be made running between the alt bolt, and the intake bolt?

All this talk is actually making me want to try mine out on the car now, just to see what happens and see if i can introduce knock at low loads.....how would i go about trying though...cut fuel back really lean?

Kristian

//EDIT - Is there anywhere on the front of the block that would be any use? There is on the 16v, the PAS bracket, not sure on the cinq though. One place i could possibly think of is the water pipe bolt, but thats a bit low and off centre. --- however, it does sit nicely by cylinder number 4

 

[allanhelen]

Things on the front of turbo cinq engines tend to melt so wasn't even thinking of looking there

been doing some reading and the sensors are pretty standard they are all designed to pick up vibration at ~6400 hertz which is main knock frequency it is the attached elecronics that need to be tuned to the engine

edit
This is why when they build you a knocksense they need the engine details
The knock vibration frequency can it seams in theory be detected more or less anywhere on the engine but the further away from the cylindars the weaker the vibration

edit edit maybe this might get around the alternator bolt problem looks like this might have been thought of before

 

[Tricker...]

I use a Knock-Link unit on my turbo - easy to install and adjusted in a sec.

http://www.thor-racing.co.uk/Knock_Link-LNK_KNK_LNK.asp

 

[allanhelen]

Did you have the Boss on your block Tricker or did you mount the sensor somewhere else?