Technical Converting Panda 169 from power steering to mechinical steering

[Patjes]

Take a very close look at the steering rack mounting bolts. Access is ??ing terrible if not impossible. I suspect the front subframe would have to come out of the car. Even unreliable EPS would be easier to live with than that. But Panda EPS is very reliable. It’s nonsensical to remove it.

Its is removed already!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! dont need to explain myself everytime, do i?
If you read the topic completly before reacting you have read that, but whats the reason for your post? its has nothing technical related in it to my question? Get a little bit tired of reactions like yours, If you dont like it that i removed the power steering you can just scroll on to the next topic, no need to react here if you dont like it. Nagging can be done to the wife at home. I like it a lot betetr driving without, Steers far more directly, fuel consumption i slower because of the dynamoload is smaller enz.

 

[DaveMcT]

Oh dear. Stop being so prissy. We don’t all have time (or a big screen) to extract every nuance.

 

[rmjbn1]

Well I for one hope the OP gets the ABS to behave and continues to enjoy their Panda without power steering. I've found this thread really interesting.

I sometimes get tempted by a Cinquecento, just because they're lighter and have less bolt-on / plug-in 'tech' like PAS.

But then the 169 Panda is very nearly 'peak car' for me, useful size without being much heavier than a Cinq, fairly rust-free, reliable, better consumption and emissions.

And it has relatively little of what for me would be useless tech.

Apart from EPS.

Yes, it's weighted fairly well, and is fairly reliable. And I know no manufacturer would try to sell a 'city car' without power steering.

But personally, I don't need it, I don't want it, and I would rather not have it.

Some owners on here have had their EPS replaced at considerable expense. If mine had issues I couldn't fix easily, I would much rather delete it if it was possible.

I imagine there is no such thing as a manual steering rack for RHD cars, but I had no idea this basic 'naked' version of the 169 existed in LHD. I think for me that might be peak car. I wonder if they come in turquoise

 

[koalar]

Well I for one hope the OP gets the ABS to behave and continues to enjoy their Panda without power steering. I've found this thread really interesting.

Yes, quite dangerous without ABS

There's no proportioning valve to the rear brakes as it's all done via the ABS module

Last thing we need is someone going off backwards through a hedge

Shouldn't be too difficult, continuity between the ABS and BSI has been lost by removing the EPS, I hope it's just a matter of repairing the break


The EPS uses the ABS sensors to give a proptional weight to the steering, fingers crossed the software isn't going to throw a fit, I pretty sure it should be fine


On a scale 1 to 10

1 being I can live without repairing it
10 being I shouldn't drive the car until it's fixed

It's a 10; from the point of view of their safety and other

 

[jrkitching]

Yes, quite dangerous without ABS

There's no proportioning valve to the rear brakes as it's all done via the ABS module

I'd imagine it's all too easy to lock the rear wheels in heavy braking with ABS inoperative, especially if 1 or 2 up.

 

[koalar]

I'd imagine it's all too easy to lock the rear wheels in heavy braking with ABS inoperative, especially if 1 or 2 up.

Yep

I had a proportion valve fail on a metro, just me in the car, someone ran out after a ball, I did an emergency stop in the wet and ended up facing the wrong way

Luckily nobody or the car was harmed.

 

[jrkitching]

And now that we're all used to driving cars with ABS, there aren't many folks who still have a cadence braking reflex in muscle memory.

I used to do quite a few winter trips in the Peak District in the late '70's, and I remember that the RWD Ford Escorts were particularly prone to facing the wrong way round when driven in the snow.

 

[The Panda Nut]

I agree nothing wrong with wanting manual steering as a preference, it is just whether it is viable conversion at the end of the day given the amount of work involved.
Many older Forum members I am sure like me learnt to drive on much more simple and basic vehicles, far easier and cheaper to repair than today's models.

AYe, and much much better feel of what is going on. Even with good quality new tyres I miss knowing whats going on. If you are driving, and concentrating on the task in hand there is a little feel but if you are not devoting all concentration to driving you would miss it.

 

[vexorg]

I'd imagine it's all too easy to lock the rear wheels in heavy braking with ABS inoperative, especially if 1 or 2 up.

If that was the case then wouldn't you feel the ABS kicking in if it was there and braking heavy?
It's very rare to get the ABS to come on in wet or dry conditions, unless it is emergency braking..

 

[koalar]

If that was the case then wouldn't you feel the ABS kicking in if it was there and braking heavy?
It's very rare to get the ABS to come on in wet or dry conditions, unless it is emergency braking..

It active all the time, you just don't notice it

It's little to do with the ABS function


Early 2004 without ABS used old fashioned valve system

Cars with ABS use the module for both ABS and to adjust the pressure to the rear brakes (EBD electronic brake distribution)

Without it, if you brake hard enough, especially in the wet, no amount of skill will save the situation, in less than a second the car will swap ends

It's not like a rear end slide where you can steer into it

I am assuming elearn is correct, I have never removed the ABS fuse and tried it myself

 

[bugsymike]

So if that is the case then an ABS braking system that fails could be potentially more dangerous than a non ABS system?
Of course unless you have driven a 1970s Moskvich on Russian tyres in the wet, in which case "cadence" braking technique was a necessity.

 

[vexorg]

It active all the time, you just don't notice it

It's little to do with the ABS function

The point was it was stated that without ABS then the back wheels will lock up easily. I'm saying that if that is true then the ABS would kick in if it's active, and you would notice, as the pedal does the juddery thing.

A bit like the new rear tyres on the back argument, people state what must be done, but reality doesn't quite tie up with what they say.

 

[koalar]

So if that is the case then an ABS braking system that fails could be potentially more dangerous than a non ABS system?
Of course unless you have driven a 1970s Moskvich on Russian tyres in the wet, in which case "cadence" braking technique was a necessity.

Your driving a car with a failure

Driving with a faulty ABS is no different to driving a none ABS with a faulty proportional valve

The only difference the ABS should tell you there's a problem

Both will brake normally and safely until the rear wheel pass the point of available grip

 

[koalar]

The point was it was stated that without ABS then the back wheels will lock up easily. I'm saying that if that is true then the ABS would kick in if it's active, and you would notice, as the pedal does the juddery thing.

A bit like the new rear tyres on the back argument, people state what must be done, but reality doesn't quite tie up with what they say.

Your missing the fact the ABS and EBD are two separate things within the same module, it's only a problem under heavy braking,

 

[bugsymike]

Your driving a car with a failure

Driving with a faulty ABS is no different to driving a none ABS with a faulty proportional valve

The only difference the ABS should tell you there's a problem

Both will brake normally and safely until the rear wheel pass the point of available grip

Or were you talking about the Moskvich? In that case it was how they left the factory and presumably met some kind of Type Approval to be sold in the UK.
Although when working in the Dealers in 1970s we could spend two days doing the PDI (pre delivery inspection" before they even felt half sellable in my eyes.
It was common on road test to brake firmly and the car to dive to the middle of the road, another 20 yards and brake again and it would try to climb on the pavement!
I traced that "peculiarity" to the Russian slave workers? leaving the cast iron machining dust still inside the brake drums!!!
Another joy was grease in the bearing cap, but not a trace in the brand new wheel bearings! I had to recover one about thirty miles away after the wheel bearing collapsed on it's new owner.
I spoke to the importers in Carnaby Bridlington who said "what are you talking about there is plenty of grease on the ones we have checked", I then asked if they had taken the hub off or just looked in the grease cap? Suddenly their attitude changed.