Technical Clutch bleed valve corroded, won't budge

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Technical Clutch bleed valve corroded, won't budge

Zardo

too many codes
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Hi,

I wanted to bleed my clutch today as getting into first gear needs some patience if the car is standing. I already bled my brakes.

Now, to get to the clutch bleed valve on the Abarth Punto Evo, it really isn't easy as there's the battery, the battery tray, the radiator hose and some air conduit which all impede access.

I removed the battery and battery tray and undid the upper connection of that air hose. After lots of fiddling, I managed to remove the cap of the nipple (which resulted in loosing it in the abys of the engine bay), and I managed to put the collector hose of the receiving bleed fluid bottle on the nipple. A lot of force and patience was needed to move the clip of the bleed valve upwards. It finally clicked in position.

However, there was no way to pull the hydraulic hose ("the operating cylinder supply hose") rightwards out of the plastic bleed valve as I was supposed to do: it is corroded in place. Over a period of 20 minutes, I repeately applied some rust remover spray and pulled and twisted, to no avail. Pulling hard or trying to twist the metal part of the hose by hand would rather pull the entire tubing out of the clutch rather than open the bleed valve. I had a pressure tool connected, with 1 bar of pressure, but nothing came out of the nipple. I tried prying the connecting hose away from the plastic bleed valve casing using a flat screwdriver, but this would only dent the plastic casing.

So, conclusion: the bleed valve of the clutch is corroded and won't budge even if great force is used (using one hand and twisting, or plyers, not enough space to use two plyers or two hands).

By the way, I wasn't able to push the clip back in, even with force, it was now totally stuck in the open position.

What should be done next, can the bleed valve of the clutch be remplaced? How to go about it? The access is so difficult, looks like a lot of other stuff needs to be removed in order to gain access. Like the front bumper and the radiator? I'm not sure about doing this myself.

See images: I'm talking about the clip distant from the clutch (the 2nd clip on the right from the nipple), where the connecting hose inserts into the plastic bleed valve casing. (1) in the image "clutch connecting hose", this black part is stuck and won't move outwards to the right after raising the clip.

It's also called a "three-way connector"


Three-way connector.jpg
Clutch connecting hose.png
 
Model
Abarth Punto Evo
Year
2010

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  • clutch bleed valve.png
    clutch bleed valve.png
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This is the procedure I'm talking about:



Looks easy, except it isn't if the parts are corroded. The end of the "operating cylinder supply hose" which inserts into the black plastic casing of the bleed valve is corroded.

The parts on my car are not 100% identical to those shown in the video, the casing is a bit different, however, the principle of the clips is the same.
 
I found the two parts on the Eper:

55235782, part 2 (the bleed valve)

B2E4755E91220B1A30DA607CF08A3B0A.png

Looks like this: 55235782

The "operating cylinder supply hose" is part 3 here:
1C5FAA6211C26B58AB11E7F9A6B9658C.png


and looks like this: 55222782

So this supply hose has a metalic end which inserts into the bleed valve (part 2 above) and get's corroded in there over time.

So basically, in order to resolve the problem, I would have to order at least these two parts.

How does the bleeder valve insert in the clutch? Will it be sufficient to just pull the other clip (the one near the clutch) in order to release the bleeder valve, and on the other side take the hose out of the clutch pump (clutch master cylinder, I presume) in order to take both the bleeder valve and the hose out? This would basically replace the whole hydraulic line between clutch and clutch master. Right?
 
I think @bugsymike might know. Can't say i've ever removed one of these.
Sorry I have been lucky not to so far.;)
I have seen them and fine when working, but not a fan of plastic hydraulic cylinders or concentric clutch slave arrangements.
To me a clutch cylinder is a semi frequent consumable, so to fit it inside a gearbox bellhousing is plain stupid by any manufacturer!
 
Sorry I have been lucky not to so far.;)
I have seen them and fine when working, but not a fan of plastic hydraulic cylinders or concentric clutch slave arrangements.
To me a clutch cylinder is a semi frequent consumable, so to fit it inside a gearbox bellhousing is plain stupid by any manufacturer!
Sorry from me too, I've only worked on the petrol engined varients.

I'm posting here because I want to agree with Mike about concentric clutch slave cylinders. What a very stupid idea. Anyone who has worked on vehicles for a living will be familiar with clutches which are inoperative due to a failed slave cylinder. Usually quite simple to sort if it's on the outside of the bell housing but an absolute pain, and very much more costly, if concentric. Also, unless the clutch itself is very new, best to fit a new clutch kit while you're in there - again, more cost. The only justification I can see for them is that, by eliminating the operating arm, the manufacturer probably saves a couple of quid on manufacturing cost.

When looking to buy a car it's one of the things I always look for. Having a concentric slave is a point against it.
 
I found some information about how to replace that 3-way connector and the hydraulic hose going up to the vibration damper next to the master cylinder of the pump.
Apparently, it's sufficient to remove the battery, the battery tray and the undercover.
And there's more clips to undo, one on the side of the clutch which connects to the short flexible hydraulic line coming out of it (which feeds the concentric slave cylinder) and the other one on the vibration damper which connects the hydraulic line to the master cylinder of the pump.

Let's hope both clips are not corroded on the inside and the piping will actually separate at both places.

The problem was, while I did ask the garage to change the brake fluid about 6 years ago when the car was about 8 years old, I didn't realize at the time that the clutch was hydraulic, too, and the brakes and the clutch share the same fluid. So it's well possible that the clutch was never bleeded and inside the clutch hydraulic lines, the fluid actually 14 years old. That would explain why stuff starts to corrode inside.

Now, if the 3-way-connector won't separate from the flexible hose of the slave cylinder, that would mean getting the clutch out... and if the vibration damper won't separate from the master cylinder of the clutch, that would mean getting the whole master-cylinder & clutch pedal assembly out. Both would be costly.

Then again, if changing gears with the car running isn't difficult, but putting the 1st gear in (from neutral) is, because there is some kind of resistance at the end of travel of the gear level with the engine idling and the car standing still, which needs to be overcome with some patience (it's actually easier if the car advances slightly), so I wonder if it's the clutch after all. Could be a lot of other things and the algorith swiftly goes to the gearbox and the gear-changing mecanism and linkage.
 
Then again, if changing gears with the car running isn't difficult, but putting the 1st gear in (from neutral) is, because there is some kind of resistance at the end of travel of the gear level with the engine idling and the car standing still, which needs to be overcome with some patience (it's actually easier if the car advances slightly), so I wonder if it's the clutch after all. Could be a lot of other things and the algorith swiftly goes to the gearbox and the gear-changing mecanism and linkage.
The usual problem is gears change OK without engine running, but grate/noisy when trying to engage first gear with clutch down and engine running, so generally hydraulic issue. Is that your problem?
Does gear engage easier if you go into second gear first and then try to engage 1st gear?
Does pushing pedal to the floor twice and then trying to engage first gear work, if so probably hydraulics/air etc.
 
The usual problem is gears change OK without engine running, but grate/noisy when trying to engage first gear with clutch down and engine running, so generally hydraulic issue. Is that your problem?
Does gear engage easier if you go into second gear first and then try to engage 1st gear?
Does pushing pedal to the floor twice and then trying to engage first gear work, if so probably hydraulics/air etc.

With the engine running, it's helpful engaging the 2nd gear first with the clutch pedal still pressed down and then selecting the first gear, instead of going from neutral directly to first gear. It sometimes helps to let go the brake if the car's on a slightly descending slope and engage the 1st gear with the car rolling very slowly and the engine idling (the gear suddenly clicks in). The higher gears engage without any problem with the engine idling and at standstils, clutch pressed all the way down.

Also the revs of the engine don't change with the gear selected and the clutch pressed down, the car won't move as long as the clutch is pushed down.

Pushing the pedal down twice doesn't seem to help, I would have realized that by now, but just to be sure, I could try that more often.
 
With the engine running, it's helpful engaging the 2nd gear first with the clutch pedal still pressed down and then selecting the first gear, instead of going from neutral directly to first gear. It sometimes helps to let go the brake if the car's on a slightly descending slope and engage the 1st gear with the car rolling very slowly and the engine idling (the gear suddenly clicks in). The higher gears engage without any problem with the engine idling and at standstils, clutch pressed all the way down.

Also the revs of the engine don't change with the gear selected and the clutch pressed down, the car won't move as long as the clutch is pushed down.

Pushing the pedal down twice doesn't seem to help, I would have realized that by now, but just to be sure, I could try that more often.
Oh! Does indicate more towards a gear issue, especially as rolling car slightly helps engagement and no dragging when in gear.
I have 2010 Fiat Doblo 1.6 that appears to "bulk" at engaging 1st gear fully and if you slightly raise the clutch pedal whilst gently pushing gear lever you can feel it engage all the way. No other problem so I suspect syncro hubs are not perfect.
 
I found the two parts on the Eper:

55235782, part 2 (the bleed valve)

B2E4755E91220B1A30DA607CF08A3B0A.png

Looks like this: 55235782

The "operating cylinder supply hose" is part 3 here:
1C5FAA6211C26B58AB11E7F9A6B9658C.png


and looks like this: 55222782

So this supply hose has a metalic end which inserts into the bleed valve (part 2 above) and get's corroded in there over time.

So basically, in order to resolve the problem, I would have to order at least these two parts.

How does the bleeder valve insert in the clutch? Will it be sufficient to just pull the other clip (the one near the clutch) in order to release the bleeder valve, and on the other side take the hose out of the clutch pump (clutch master cylinder, I presume) in order to take both the bleeder valve and the hose out? This would basically replace the whole hydraulic line between clutch and clutch master. Right?
Panda clutch pipe join under the chassis has the same basic issue. I tried breifly to undo one of mine. Decided to leave it alone and I think regrettably you are right, you need both parts. I doubt the metal end will come out of the pastic part without breaking lumps off it. Poor design / build I feel. Much quicker and cheaper to buy all the bits and not end up breaking other things while trying to save them. Less stressful too. Change to DOT4 fluid it holds less moisture.
 
DOT4 is the fluid FIAT put in, it's written on the cap. Petronas Tutela Dot4 some urine-yellowish stuff.
When doing the brakes, as the fluid on that part of the circuit was only about 6 years old, I could not tell the difference between old and new fluid.
 
DOT4 is the fluid FIAT put in, it's written on the cap. Petronas Tutela Dot4 some urine-yellowish stuff.
When doing the brakes, as the fluid on that part of the circuit was only about 6 years old, I could not tell the difference between old and new fluid.
DOT4 has been the standard fluid for most applications for many years but relatively recently there's a "new kid" on the block - DOT4 plus. Some of the newest vehicles specify this, my Skoda being one and my 2016 Ibiza being another. Although compatible with the normal DOT4, DOT4 plus has important performance differences which can have implications for the ABS system in particular. Here's an interesting article on the subject. https://www.tomorrowstechnician.com...=Both of these fluids have,s of regular DOT 4.
 
Any progress with this?

The gear selection on this 6-speed Abarth Punto Evo never had been ultra smooth in the first place, even when new in 2011, especially when compared to its competitor at the time, the Citroën DS3 the gears of which almost let fall themselves into place.

With the car rolling 35 km/h or around 20 miles/h, with the clutch pressed, I testet the behavior today again: I can clearly feel some resistance transmitted by the gear lever when putting it in third gear, and of course much more so when selecting first gear. The other gears (except for reverse which I haven't tried) can be very easily selected.

It seems that the difficulty for selecting first gear varies, sometimes it's very easy, then again it's quite hard and I need to select 2nd gear first.

So maybe it's the gearbox after all. I'll probably still try and replace the hydraulic lines so I can bleed the clutch properly, and I also intend to change the oil of the gear box.

It's done now 239 000 km or short of 150 000 miles, not too much city traffic and I'm in 6th gear most of the time.
 
Last edited:
DOT4 has been the standard fluid for most applications for many years but relatively recently there's a "new kid" on the block - DOT4 plus. Some of the newest vehicles specify this, my Skoda being one and my 2016 Ibiza being another. Although compatible with the normal DOT4, DOT4 plus has important performance differences which can have implications for the ABS system in particular. Here's an interesting article on the subject. https://www.tomorrowstechnician.com/differences-in-brake-fluid-matter-to-cars-and-owners/#:~:text=Both of these fluids have,s of regular DOT 4.

I wonder if the lower viscosity of Dot4+ will not cause problems with O-ring leakages in an older car.

From the link:

When you compare DOT 4 to DOT 4+, the main difference is that the DOT+ has a viscosity of 750 mm2 instead of 1,800 mm2/s of regular DOT 4.
 
It's done now 239 000 km or short of 150 000 miles, not too much city traffic and I'm in 6th gear most of the time.
These gearboxes are reliable in my opinion. But 150,000 miles is about a typical lifespan. Not sure which gearbox it is, but there's probably overlap with the Grande Punto and you can find a second hand one easily enough.
 
I wonder if the lower viscosity of Dot4+ will not cause problems with O-ring leakages in an older car.

From the link:
Quite possibly. I think you should stick with what's recommended for the vehicle - most now have it written on the reservoir. I've been aware of the two grades for some time (since I bought the Ibiza) but assumed they were very similar and that it wouldn't matter all that much therefore if I used normal dot 4 to top up a DOT4 plus system. Also the Dot4 plus is quite significantly more expensive - not that that's too much of an issue because you don't generally need very much of it. From now on I'm going to pay more attention to using the specified fluid in this respect.
 
These gearboxes are reliable in my opinion. But 150,000 miles is about a typical lifespan. Not sure which gearbox it is, but there's probably overlap with the Grande Punto and you can find a second hand one easily enough.

It's a C635 manual gearbox.

Gearbox type c635

All new engines (firstly starting from 1.4 Turbo MultiAir and 1.4 T-Jet 120 HP) come with a new-generation manual gearbox: C635 with 6 gears. The C635 gearbox belongs to a new group of transverse, three axle transmissions designed for improved manoeuvrability that are more compact than transmissions with two axles. This type of gearbox is able to withstand and transmit high maximum torque values (up to 350 Nm) and can therefore be fitted on all engines. The six speeds allow, particularly at motorway speeds, lower engine speed than current production cars with the twofold advantage of less noise in the passenger compartment and a reduction in actual fuel consumption figures. The clutch drive is hydraulic, built into the gearbox with the CSC device with the aim of reducing the operating effort. The splash lubrication system ensures lower wear with higher transmission efficiency and manoeuvrability even at low temperatures.

The main specifications of the new C635 manual gearbox are:

fixed idler (or cascade gear) manual gearbox with six transmission ratios plus reverse; all gears synchronised (including reverse); idle wheel for reverse engagement; toothed wheels with helical teeth; three shafts, one main shaft plus two layshafts (one upper and two lower ones); differential built into gearbox casing; activation by hydraulic clutch; casing split into two parts
 
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