Technical Check engine light at speed after cam belt change

Currently reading:
Technical Check engine light at speed after cam belt change

Sorry to come to this late.

I have previously posted a link to video how to do the phonic wheel learn on fiat 500 1.2 by reving the engine method if the mil can be made to enter flashing mode.

Worth mentioning in case someone else comes across this thread.
 


Not the 500 video I posted before without using mes but

you can do it if you can get mil to enter flashing mode by driving, then 3 x reving procedure described
 
Last edited:
And then you visit the premises again late at night with a box of matches and a balaclava! :unsure: :rolleyes::LOL:
No need for that, it won't do you any good! Better buy yourself a baclava and forget about that garage if they refuse to cooperate in any refunding after you send them an email. In your email, after you present the situation, you can mention that you are considering taking legal action against them and ask them to be aware that if they lose the court will impose them to pay legal fees and your lawyer fee as well as what they owe you for a job only half done.
 
I do not think phonic wheel has anything to do with your problem and here's what our colleague thinks of it, you might be interested, posted in this other topic
Looks like our colleague was not 100% right in that topic there and I was wrong too thinking phonic wheel reset wouldn't help. My bad!
I'm happy for you that it did do the trick and is good to now phonic wheel reset does help sometimes. I will do one on my Punto because I recently did a HG job and I do have the tester and MES. I don't have any errors popping up, but there is something I'm not totally satisfied with. When I start moving the car, it needs much more acceleration than before, it lacks that thrust. I'll see how that goes.
 
Cheers, really appreciated the advice from you and the others on here. If I'd not known about the phonic wheel reset god knows what I'd have had replaced and at what cost.

He didn't say much, just I was lucky because the belts can be tricky to do. I'm guessing by the fact he only did the software and the light has stayed off the belt was installed properly

Gave me the diagnostic report and it just showed the cylinder misfire codes the first garage found

He's a good twenty minutes away but I'll be back to him for MOT and service after today
You'll never really know if the timing is absolutely spot on without partially dismantling stuff and offering up the timing tools to see if they drop into place. If the car is driving well and the fuel consumption is "sensible" I'd just get on with driving it if it were me.

I don't think it would be unreasonable to expect the original garage to reimburse you the cost you've just incurred but I think you might find it a bit acrimonious if you try pursuing them? On the other hand the worst they can do is say no? I really hate confrontation so if it were me I'm afraid I'd probably wimp out and swallow the cost.
 
You'll never really know if the timing is absolutely spot on without partially dismantling stuff and offering up the timing tools to see if they drop into place. If the car is driving well and the fuel consumption is "sensible" I'd just get on with driving it if it were me.

I don't think it would be unreasonable to expect the original garage to reimburse you the cost you've just incurred but I think you might find it a bit acrimonious if you try pursuing them? On the other hand the worst they can do is say no? I really hate confrontation so if it were me I'm afraid I'd probably wimp out and swallow the cost.

You could suggest in an email/text/whatever, the guy could contribute and it would make all the difference in the on-line review you wrote .....

A gentle well written nudge to do the right thing
😝
 
Haha yeah I've not written a review for the first garage but the second one got a glowing Google review from me

First garage is actually well reviewed. You've got to dig before you see mentions of him being rude and confrontational
 
Looks like our colleague was not 100% right in that topic there and I was wrong too thinking phonic wheel reset wouldn't help. My bad!
I'm happy for you that it did do the trick and is good to now phonic wheel reset does help sometimes. I will do one on my Punto because I recently did a HG job and I do have the tester and MES. I don't have any errors popping up, but there is something I'm not totally satisfied with. When I start moving the car, it needs much more acceleration than before, it lacks that thrust. I'll see how that goes.
I most certainly wouldn't make any claim to be an electronic diagnostic expert but I like to think I'm a pretty competent mechanic whose been "messing about" with diagnosing this sort of problem for many years.

I've done some pretty deep thinking about this "phenomenon" of the Phonic Wheel Relearn and, so far, the conclusion I've reached is this. The crankshaft and camshaft both have sensors which transmit a signal to the engine ECU every time they complete a 360 degree revolution. The crankshaft drives the camshaft via the timing belt and thus it's this relationship which determines the cam timing of the engine and therefore how well the engine runs. These are two completely separate things.

So the valve timing and correct running of the engine are down to correctly fitting the cam belt and it's associated pulley positions - It's the locking tools which let you accomplish this.

The relevance of the Phonic wheel relearn is that this teaches the ECU to accept that, when the relearn is performed, the angular relationship between the signal these two sensors send it is what is "normal". In other words, If we accept that the crankshaft sensor signal is the reference then the ECU is expecting to see a camshaft sensor signal on every second revolution of the crankshaft at a precise degree of angular displacement. If this signal arrives when the crankshaft is in any other position then the ECU will detect and compare this to the stored data and flag up the misfire code (which we know is a red herring) and light up the EML.

Following this line of thought, I think you could set up the timing a tooth out - as people do - then perform a relearn and you'd find the ECU would then adopt this as the correct data so wouldn't light the EML? In other words the stored value the ECU retains regarding the relationship between the crank and camshaft sensors has no effect on the mechanical way the engine runs, that's down to the valve timing being correctly set up when the belt is fitted. The stored data relating to the two sensor signals is there so that if they can be compared, along with other inputs, by the ECU and allow the spark, fueling etc to be correctly applied to the running of the engine. If the signals vary outside the parameters the ECU flags up code and lights the EML.
 
Haha yeah I've not written a review for the first garage but the second one got a glowing Google review from me

First garage is actually well reviewed. You've got to dig before you see mentions of him being rude and confrontational

All the more reason to make that contact then 👍
 
You'll never really know if the timing is absolutely spot on without partially dismantling stuff and offering up the timing tools to see if they drop into place. If the car is driving well and the fuel consumption is "sensible" I'd just get on with driving it if it were me.

I don't think it would be unreasonable to expect the original garage to reimburse you the cost you've just incurred but I think you might find it a bit acrimonious if you try pursuing them? On the other hand the worst they can do is say no? I really hate confrontation so if it were me I'm afraid I'd probably wimp out and swallow the cost.
Yeah, I'm not very confrontational either. I'm annoyed enough that I'll send a strong email but won't be following with any legal or anything. Doubt he'll fold and that will probably be it
 
Yeah, I'm not very confrontational either. I'm annoyed enough that I'll send a strong email but won't be following with any legal or anything. Doubt he'll fold and that will probably be it
Do let us know how that turns out won't you - good luck.

I do feel just a little sympathy for them though. This "thing" with the EML lighting up due to a Phonic Wheel Relearn being needed is, I think? unique to the Fiats. I've done many cam belts in my life and never come across anything like it on anything else. I'm not quite so sure though about some of the very latest vehicles, like my Scala with it's EA211 family engine where both cam and crankshaft pulleys are unkeyed and both have to be slackened when doing a belt. If they are not deeply into Fiats I don't think most small garages would know about this.

I must say though that if this had happened when I was working as shop foreman/manager when you approached me I'd have rung up the main dealer and checked if this was so and when they told me yes, I'd have reimbursed you the extra costs and maybe included a box of Thorntons chocs for good will. Last thing I'd have wanted was you unhappy and talking to lots of other people about it.
 
You can always still write a bad review once he's paid up

I'm joking, I'm joking :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:

If he paid/contributed then I might be inclined to just not leave a review, depends
 
Just have a think about the wording, keep it nice but get across what you'd like the outcome to be
Definitely, want it to be firm and professional but not confrontational. I'm having lunch with a friend later so will see if we can draft something up (she works in HR, I'm sure she'll have some good wording!)
 
At the end of the day I'm very fortunate that £100 isn't the difference between making rent or not for me, but I'm annoyed with the principles

100% get that 99% of cam belt jobs don't need software resets but they're not uncommon cars and it's frustrating he took the job on without all the tools to see it through and then expected that he could just shout me down and I'd drop it
 
I've done some pretty deep thinking about this "phenomenon" of the Phonic Wheel Relearn and, so far, the conclusion I've reached is this. The crankshaft and camshaft both have sensors which transmit a signal to the engine ECU every time they complete a 360 degree revolution. The crankshaft drives the camshaft via the timing belt and thus it's this relationship which determines the cam timing of the engine and therefore how well the engine runs. These are two completely separate things.

So the valve timing and correct running of the engine are down to correctly fitting the cam belt and it's associated pulley positions - It's the locking tools which let you accomplish this.

The relevance of the Phonic wheel relearn is that this teaches the ECU to accept that, when the relearn is performed, the angular relationship between the signal these two sensors send it is what is "normal". In other words, If we accept that the crankshaft sensor signal is the reference then the ECU is expecting to see a camshaft sensor signal on every second revolution of the crankshaft at a precise degree of angular displacement. If this signal arrives when the crankshaft is in any other position then the ECU will detect and compare this to the stored data and flag up the misfire code (which we know is a red herring) and light up the EML.
That pretty much sums up my own thinking on this also.

So if after the new belt is fitted, the angular relationship between camshaft and crankshaft is exactly the same as it was before, then everything will work just the way it did before and no relearning is needed.

It follows from this that, if there are running problems after a belt change, the angular relationship between camshaft and crankshaft must be different than it was before you started. If this difference is small, the engine will run without destroying itself; if it is very small, but not quite good enough to run properly, then a phonic wheel relearn might do the trick.

If you mark everything before you start, work carefully, and your self-made marks are in the same place when you've finished, then the angular relationship shouldn't change. But there are still ways it might; slight variations in belt tension, manufacturing tolerances, some have suggested that pattern parts, especially water pump pulleys, may not be dimensionally identical.

The 'official' method of fitting highly accurate setting tools and loosening the cam pulley is likely designed to ensure the precise angular relationship is maintained in spite of any differences in replacement part tolerances. This can get you a more accurate alignment than using timing marks. With the latter, you can only position a belt to the nearest tooth; if you loosen the cam pulley, you can position it anywhere.

Remember also that if it is not the first belt change since the car left the factory, there is no way of knowing what method was used during its previous replacement, and you can't be sure that the old belt is aligned with perfect accuracy.

My own opinion is that this is an unneccessary complication on what is basically a simple, low power engine; if Fiat had used fixed timing marks and keyed pulleys, it would only be at most half a tooth from the theoretically perfect position, and it would work just fine with that. But that's not how they designed and made it; we have to work with what we've got.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top