Car to Aircraft Levels Of Complexity and Control

[s130]

I'll post here as this is non vehicle specific.

I/we all see posts about how do I replace X with Y, what other kit is required to keep functions on X available on Y, what custom Proxy data do I need.

Now manufacturers/dealers will just deal with X, repair X, replace X etc. and not directly support replacement and programming of X with Y.

Indeed the manufacturers keep the tech data private.

We all also see people here on FF and elsewhere probing, hacking, ....... and in some cases get things working.

On an aeroplane you would NOT be allowed to do these changes unless A) your are certified B) the changes/kit were certified C) potentially require secondary inspection and sign off.

With the 500X and not doubt other makes and models vehicle menu functions are being transferred to the head units, and some of these functions are safety related.

This all begs the question as to what hidden safety side effects are being introduced into a vehicle when we mess with them. Did new item C interfere with critical CAN BUS messages possible related to ABS, collision radar, etc.

Would you fly on an aircraft if it had been messed with?

The once simple radio is now a head unit with all sorts of (for us) undocumented interactions with other critical systems. We just DON'T know. Logic would suggest that manufacturers are aware of these potential issues but are they? Have they covered ALL scenarios of a cheap Chinese bit of kit killing both Hi and Lo Can-Bus lines?

Food for thought!

 

[PuntoHowTo]

I have flown in an aircraft that has and that I have “messed” with so I guess this isn’t aimed at me.

On the point of “hacking” car head units, generally speaking no one is hacking anything, they are usually following instructions on how to unlock functions or features of there car that are turned off in the software.

Fiat are less inclined to have these features in the software, but where as on more higher end cars they use the same “modules” across multiple car models and sometimes different brands and in those cases you can unlock something that that might be a feature on a higher end car, you can change settings such as how long the headlights stay lit when you unlock the car or other features like that, but no one is “hacking” the car to do anything it couldn’t already do, they are just turning on something that was switched off.

So basically no, no one is hacking anything that will cause a problem elsewhere.

Also there are non certified aircraft that owners can work on themselves, in fact anyone can build there own aircraft,

Building Aircraft | Light Aircraft Assoc

www.lightaircraftassociation.co.uk

 

[s130]

Well I don't totally disagree with your (PuntoHowTo) response. However generally speaking in aircraft (for example) and to a lesser extent "units" are designed and approved (if not certified) to operate together in accordance with ......

Taking this back a step technically and legally with insurance putting go faster stripes on you car is potentially an invalidation of your insurance policy. FACT. When I was doing motor sport in my road legal vehicle I HAD TO DISCLOSE even the little yellow tape on the battery lead to indicate to marshals what lead to cut to immobilise all vehicle electrical power. Add slightly visible in cockpit ignition OFF direction arrows etc. etc.

As for external vehicle markings / go faster stripes etc. then if they were not standard on the vehicle from the manufacturer then they may be required or should be declared to the insurance company.

For insurance you are paying a fee for an acceptable risk. If go faster stripes, racing seats / harnesses etc. make your vehicle more likely to be a target then that has to be declared. Lump it or like it that is how these insurance companies work.

This begs the question if you replace a head unit that was a designed integral part of your vehicle's operation with a manufacturer non approved replacement then do they have the right to decline and not pay up in an accident. Also NOTE even if the other party is at fault you are still in deep **** for driving a modified vehicle not disclosed!

Ignoring legalities and insurance crap how do you or me know that in today's totally integrated and specifically designed and coded systems that replacing even the most innocuous module (e.g. rear parking sensor / camera) does and will not have an effect on the vehicles other systems. You/we don't.

As for your link to Building Aircraft etc. then fine. No concerns or issues for me. However whatever you do has to be finally checked out and certified and the link and other links detail all these requirements and tests etc. Different world and different game.

Also note that I have modified my road cars and have disclosed all those changes/mods to my insurance company. All my vehicle mods over the years (including yellow tape on battery -ve lead) have been disclosed to my insurers. Fortunately until my 500X the associated cars were dumb and traditional non computer and networked based ones.

In the case of say a Fiat with all the Proxy data changes people are making to get their new different make head units working by poking around and changing byte configuration values how do they know that they have not accidentally turned off the vehicle's emergency braking system, stability control, etc. THEY DO NOT and short of testing every possible scenario in real life they will never know.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Im sure there is no harm likely, but I agree everything seems to be linked. What you suggest is entirely possible by accident if not by design. When I fitted a towbar to my golf I wanted to check the wires were correct before putting it all back to gether so just plugged a lamp unit into teh harness plug. The car threw a wobbler as it knew it had the right lamp unit plugged into the left side wiring. I think I would tell the insurance if changing the radio alteres the cars functionality. I hope they wouldnt be very intrested, but to err on the side of caution would be best.

 

[s130]

The reason I raised this for discussion is because as the only moderator of the official MES Forum I see loads of posts where people have changed a head unit, fitted a body computer from a near identical vehicle (Ducato camper van). All these changes require Proxy byte value changes and in some more bazaar cases other systems won't work. Put the original unit back (along with the original Proxy values and all ifs well again.

With Proxy then there is no officially published data from Fiat as to what each byte and each value does. On extended proxy data their are potentially 256*256 or 256*8 (if single bit activation as opposed to byte value). In the absence of this official data people and experimenting, trial and error, etc, sharing and suggesting values.

I would not be surprised if there values that can put units into some form of test mode when for example ABS is turned off on the front axle. Or collision radar relative speed & distance activation can be changed. We just don't know and hope that the manufacturer has taken all the necessary proper design and safeguards.

Having worked my entire life in the electronics business I have come across, and even done myself on in house complex test equipment, cases where a new control signal is required but there are no free 'dedicated' control ports. As an interim solution people steal spare bits / control lines from other ports until say a new expanded interface card can be produced. This type of temporary patching does go on in industry and as these patched units are supposed to be black boxes to the end user you never know what quick patch a manufacturer has put in a unit.

All fun and games

 

[Zardo]

I'll post here as this is non vehicle specific.

I/we all see posts about how do I replace X with Y, what other kit is required to keep functions on X available on Y, what custom Proxy data do I need.

Now manufacturers/dealers will just deal with X, repair X, replace X etc. and not directly support replacement and programming of X with Y.

Indeed the manufacturers keep the tech data private.

This privacy is against the right to repair and, if you don't do the repair yourself, will hinder your ability to chose a "free" and "independent" workshop as they will either have to pay a subscription for your model or won't have access to the specific documentation (like torque values and so on). So this "privacy" isn't enhancing road safety at all especially if there´s no nearby dealership or this dealership has bad rep. or overcharges the customer.

We all also see people here on FF and elsewhere probing, hacking, ....... and in some cases get things working.

On an aeroplane you would NOT be allowed to do these changes unless A) your are certified B) the changes/kit were certified C) potentially require secondary inspection and sign off.

With the 500X and not doubt other makes and models vehicle menu functions are being transferred to the head units, and some of these functions are safety related.

This all begs the question as to what hidden safety side effects are being introduced into a vehicle when we mess with them. Did new item C interfere with critical CAN BUS messages possible related to ABS, collision radar, etc.

Would you fly on an aircraft if it had been messed with?

The main difference is that if a car engine quits, you can simply roll to a stop and get out safely, even on a motorway. However, if an aircraft engine fails, you have only a minute or two to locate flat terrain free of obstacles like trees, fences, ditches, people, cars, houses, telephone poles, or cows, and attempt a landing without setting yourself or others on fire. In comparison, a car is a ridiculously underengineered vehicle with basic components and predictable failure modes.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

The reason I raised this for discussion is because as the only moderator of the official MES Forum I see loads of posts where people have changed a head unit, fitted a body computer from a near identical vehicle (Ducato camper van). All these changes require Proxy byte value changes and in some more bazaar cases other systems won't work. Put the original unit back (along with the original Proxy values and all ifs well again.

With Proxy then there is no officially published data from Fiat as to what each byte and each value does. On extended proxy data their are potentially 256*256 or 256*8 (if single bit activation as opposed to byte value). In the absence of this official data people and experimenting, trial and error, etc, sharing and suggesting values.

I would not be surprised if there values that can put units into some form of test mode when for example ABS is turned off on the front axle. Or collision radar relative speed & distance activation can be changed. We just don't know and hope that the manufacturer has taken all the necessary proper design and safeguards.

Having worked my entire life in the electronics business I have come across, and even done myself on in house complex test equipment, cases where a new control signal is required but there are no free 'dedicated' control ports. As an interim solution people steal spare bits / control lines from other ports until say a new expanded interface card can be produced. This type of temporary patching does go on in industry and as these patched units are supposed to be black boxes to the end user you never know what quick patch a manufacturer has put in a unit.

All fun and games

I can see where you are coming from. In the case of say vw where the documentation is quite extensive that people do generally know what they are doing it isn’t uncommon for people to code things in (and out) to enable or disable things in the software.

So much so that the software packages used to do this sort of work these days actually has a toggle switch to turn things on and off within the user interface.

Fiat on the other hand is not so well supported and people are often playing trial and error at these things.

Now technically you shouldn’t be able to disable an essential system like the ABS by changing bits on the head unit, but as you say you don’t know what errors you could introduce. Anyone doing this would be wise to make back ups.

Worse case in theory you stop the ABS or stability program from kicking in when needed but the brakes would still work.

 

[s130]

In the case of say vw where the documentation is quite extensive that people do generally know what they are doing it isn’t uncommon for people to code things in (and out) to enable or disable things in the software.

So much so that the software packages used to do this sort of work these days actually has a toggle switch to turn things on and off within the user interface.

Understand. I would like to see some of this VW stuff. But does it include internal data configuration information for the body computer and/or other units.

Fiat have disclosed all their EOBDII control and some configuration / control data. MES and other makes of kit can do actuations, enabling/disabling some features and functions but not every byte / bit / etc.

I can do quite a lot on my 500X with MES and MultiECU but when it comes to tinkering with Proxy data it is more of a black art than a documented technical specification of relevant byte control data/functions.

Another post @Zardo mentioned "Right To Repair". The US is far better in this respect and quit a lot of information is freely available on the US Mopar sites. In the UK/EU then we are being hung up on what the Right To Repair actually means legally. e.g. Do you as a vehicle owner have to right to have your vehicle repaired by another party, or do you personally have the right to repair. Fiat provide all the info to repair etc. to 3rd parties (if they pay) but not to you. Absolute nightmare and bag of worms.

We as owners in the UK/EU are progressively be stuffed and at the mercy of expensive main dealers or specialised 3rd party garages that can afford to pay the manufacturers access fees. Things are further complicated by the fact that many of the diagnostic repair and replace procedures are programmed into the manufacturer's own diagnostic kit providing quick, easy and customer expensive solutions. If you don't use the manufacturers diagnostic kit and use say Snap-On then the Snap-On kit will allow you to do what is required but often there are no "integrated walk through maps/charts".

I'm personally dreading the day I have to replace my current cars and might look at the "all in" leasing options.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

I’m getting very confused with this thread already because you’re seemingly trying to discuss multiple things all at once and then trying to directly relate them to one another.

I understood the original question to be one of safety where people are hacking (coding features ) on their cars.

In that respect this has nothing to do with “right to repair” as you are not repairing your car by definition and are modifying or altering the software of the car’s modules to do something that your car was not originally sold with.


Right to repair deals in the ability to access those electronic modules or computers using readily available technology.

The OBD11 Protocols are supposed to be the same/use the same standards for all makes and models so that even the most basic odb11 readers can get engine codes and generate codes which are largely similar across all makes and models.

When you get into torque specs and parts availability then that is a seperate discussion and has nothing to do with reading codes or hacking things.

Ironically the move towards pushing people to lease cars with all inclusive servicing packages is all been designed to try and keep people in the dealer network and keep people regularly replacing cars, because over time people were moving more and more away from main dealers because of the prices and because of the right to have your car serviced at an appropriate garage of your choosing.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Understand. I would like to see some of this VW stuff. But does it include internal data configuration information for the body computer and/or other units.

Fiat have disclosed all their EOBDII control and some configuration / control data. MES and other makes of kit can do actuations, enabling/disabling some features and functions but not every byte / bit / etc.

I can do quite a lot on my 500X with MES and MultiECU but when it comes to tinkering with Proxy data it is more of a black art than a documented technical specification of relevant byte control data/functions.

Another post @Zardo mentioned "Right To Repair". The US is far better in this respect and quit a lot of information is freely available on the US Mopar sites. In the UK/EU then we are being hung up on what the Right To Repair actually means legally. e.g. Do you as a vehicle owner have to right to have your vehicle repaired by another party, or do you personally have the right to repair. Fiat provide all the info to repair etc. to 3rd parties (if they pay) but not to you. Absolute nightmare and bag of worms.

We as owners in the UK/EU are progressively be stuffed and at the mercy of expensive main dealers or specialised 3rd party garages that can afford to pay the manufacturers access fees. Things are further complicated by the fact that many of the diagnostic repair and replace procedures are programmed into the manufacturer's own diagnostic kit providing quick, easy and customer expensive solutions. If you don't use the manufacturers diagnostic kit and use say Snap-On then the Snap-On kit will allow you to do what is required but often there are no "integrated walk through maps/charts".

I'm personally dreading the day I have to replace my current cars and might look at the "all in" leasing options.

Great post. my thoughts exactly on the next vehicle. Or, a morris minor lol

 

[s130]

I’m getting very confused with this thread already because you’re seemingly trying to discuss multiple things all at once and then trying to directly relate them to one another.

I understood the original question to be one of safety where people are hacking (coding features ) on their cars.

In that respect this has nothing to do with “right to repair” as you are not repairing your car by definition and are modifying or altering the software of the car’s modules to do something that your car was not originally sold with.


Right to repair deals in the ability to access those electronic modules or computers using readily available technology.

The OBD11 Protocols are supposed to be the same/use the same standards for all makes and models so that even the most basic odb11 readers can get engine codes and generate codes which are largely similar across all makes and models.

When you get into torque specs and parts availability then that is a seperate discussion and has nothing to do with reading codes or hacking things.

Ironically the move towards pushing people to lease cars with all inclusive servicing packages is all been designed to try and keep people in the dealer network and keep people regularly replacing cars, because over time people were moving more and more away from main dealers because of the prices and because of the right to have your car serviced at an appropriate garage of your choosing.

I didn't raise the "Right To Repair", @Zardo did. I take that as he mentioned this (along with Privacy) that he as an EU citizen in Switzerland is seeing and feeling the complexity of these systems, the lack of info for consumers/owners, and being forced down dealer only maintenance etc.

Example of how we are being sidelined

In the old days any person could change rear brake pads. Then came self adjusting rears where wind back tools were required. Not a big issue. Enter the EPB (electronic park brake). Again and extra annoyance but not surmountable.

When it comes to these integrated all controlling interlinked controlling systems where even the vehicle VIN number has been encoded into Air Bag, ABS, Head Unit and other control modules then things become not only complicated but also play into the hands of "dealer only" / similar specialists.

I'll also note, and to an extent praise that encoded VINs across all vehicles systems are a security action that can / does? really reduce the vehicle theft for spare parts and 100% cloning gangs.

Sadly all the dedicated professional gangs/operations can and do bypass whatever new security hurdles are placed in their way! NOT funny!