Technical Car cut out and will not start. 500s 2014
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Technical Car cut out and will not start. 500s 2014
check the condition of the earth strap that runs from the right of the engine bay under the battery to the gearbox underneath the slave cylinder, very similar scenario to what I experienced with my daughters car a while ago, alternative earth cable from engine to body worked to a degree but would only start after 15-20 seconds of cranking - had to be earthed body to gearbox as soon as that was replaced fired up straight away.
You do not describe the 'stall', but if it was particularly abrupt, the fire protection system may have triggered.
There is a fuel cut off system that is triggered by abrupt stops. This is to cut the fuel pump in case of a collision, to prevent fires. On older models this was a physical switch, usually located inside the cabin, either just under the driver or passenger seat, or under the centre console. Some later models require a sequence of switch movements to reset. Have a look in the handbook for 'fire protection' and follow the instructions.
There is a fuel cut off system that is triggered by abrupt stops. This is to cut the fuel pump in case of a collision, to prevent fires. On older models this was a physical switch, usually located inside the cabin, either just under the driver or passenger seat, or under the centre console. Some later models require a sequence of switch movements to reset. Have a look in the handbook for 'fire protection' and follow the instructions.
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He's tried the jump lead check same result no start, really need to get the codes and confirmation of cam belt?
So the plot thickens.
Again, tried to start it this morning and it started and ran for 2 seconds.
Then same again, would not start.
So this rules out the cam belt.
Put the code reader on and done a full scan.
Only code was C0F90.
Cant find this code online.
So a erased the code and tried starting again.
Still would not start.
Checked for codes again and nothing has been generated.
Could this be some as simple as a blocked fuel filter ?
Again, tried to start it this morning and it started and ran for 2 seconds.
Then same again, would not start.
So this rules out the cam belt.
Put the code reader on and done a full scan.
Only code was C0F90.
Cant find this code online.
So a erased the code and tried starting again.
Still would not start.
Checked for codes again and nothing has been generated.
Could this be some as simple as a blocked fuel filter ?
The Panda Nut
Nutty about Pandas Infected by Panda virus and OPD
Back to first principles to start with. Fuel and spark. Try starting and crank for a while then remove a plug and see if its wet. If its still dry it is definitely a fuel issue assuming you have checked and have a spark. Fuel pump fails seem to be rare, I havn't seen anyone on here with a definite failure. I cant agree more that a MES check is a good starting place. Mess allows you to run different electrical things on demand from a lap top command allowing you to hear relays working etc this makes identification easier. There is also the immoibiliser to consider. My first actionnwould be to disconnect the battery for half an hour and then try your second key to start the car. to rule out a few more things.
Try the extra earth lead too. Check the voltage of the battery does not drop to nothing on cranking with more elctrical load added HRW / lights etc
EML does stay on until the engine starts then goes of after about 1 second..
The fuel rail has a connector on top of the engine under the air box. The wires to it are skinny and do get a lot of heat. If removing this take car to disconnect the pipes especially the thin one near the throttle body as the lug it pushes onto is a bit brittle.
A sudden failure suggests something like an engine sensor fail ir a wiring fail due to a break. I have had both on different cars. I was told to feel along the wires for a hot spot and found my broken wire though this is somewhat different.
MES must be used early in the process it will rule things in or out quickly and is a big stress buster!. It will pay fr its self may times over if you do purchase. I think the fuel shut off reset is a MES thing too.
Try the extra earth lead too. Check the voltage of the battery does not drop to nothing on cranking with more elctrical load added HRW / lights etc
EML does stay on until the engine starts then goes of after about 1 second..
The fuel rail has a connector on top of the engine under the air box. The wires to it are skinny and do get a lot of heat. If removing this take car to disconnect the pipes especially the thin one near the throttle body as the lug it pushes onto is a bit brittle.
A sudden failure suggests something like an engine sensor fail ir a wiring fail due to a break. I have had both on different cars. I was told to feel along the wires for a hot spot and found my broken wire though this is somewhat different.
MES must be used early in the process it will rule things in or out quickly and is a big stress buster!. It will pay fr its self may times over if you do purchase. I think the fuel shut off reset is a MES thing too.
The Panda Nut
Nutty about Pandas Infected by Panda virus and OPD
The Panda Nut
Nutty about Pandas Infected by Panda virus and OPD
See the Panda Forum.
Someone posted there recently with similar issues and there unplugged the MAF sensor and refitted it. The probem was solved. I would definitely give this a try.
Someone posted there recently with similar issues and there unplugged the MAF sensor and refitted it. The probem was solved. I would definitely give this a try.
Thanks Panda Nut for the detailed post.
The thing is if left overnight and tried it will start and run for 2 second’s.
In my mind that rules out any broken wires.
You said about the immobilise, that’s a good point.
Will try that tomorrow night.
Thanks again for taking the time to reply.
The thing is if left overnight and tried it will start and run for 2 second’s.
In my mind that rules out any broken wires.
You said about the immobilise, that’s a good point.
Will try that tomorrow night.
Thanks again for taking the time to reply.
In your original post you said "The only thing I can think of , is I can’t hear the fuel pump when I turn the ignition on."
The only code you have come up was "Only code was C0F90" The nearest to that in Autodata is P0090 Fuel Pressure Regulator Open Circuit. I am not naive enough to think it is the same, however it is a fuel error code.
Last Friday I mentioned, " Re the query at the fuel pump, it may be unrelated, but on one of my daughters cars a 06 Grande Punto the fuel pump and the starter wouldn't power up until power to the correct side of the relay was supplied. With a multimeter and a bit of common sense
, locate the correct terminals to test this.
On her car depending on the position of the ignition switch one of the trigger wires working the solenoid part of the relay should be - or + down the same wire from the ECU. It took a while to find it but the cause was a corroded wire just an inch away from the ECU plug .
So all you need to do to check this, is check the fuel pump relay is getting the correct signal to activate."
So did you power up the fuel pump relay using a fused test probe as I suggested?
So did you check for fuel pressure at the fuel injector rail, after the engine fired for a few seconds? If not fuel related then there would still be fuel under pressure at the rail for at least a short while after cutting out again.
The only code you have come up was "Only code was C0F90" The nearest to that in Autodata is P0090 Fuel Pressure Regulator Open Circuit. I am not naive enough to think it is the same, however it is a fuel error code.
Last Friday I mentioned, " Re the query at the fuel pump, it may be unrelated, but on one of my daughters cars a 06 Grande Punto the fuel pump and the starter wouldn't power up until power to the correct side of the relay was supplied. With a multimeter and a bit of common sense
, locate the correct terminals to test this.On her car depending on the position of the ignition switch one of the trigger wires working the solenoid part of the relay should be - or + down the same wire from the ECU. It took a while to find it but the cause was a corroded wire just an inch away from the ECU plug .
So all you need to do to check this, is check the fuel pump relay is getting the correct signal to activate."
So did you power up the fuel pump relay using a fused test probe as I suggested?
So did you check for fuel pressure at the fuel injector rail, after the engine fired for a few seconds? If not fuel related then there would still be fuel under pressure at the rail for at least a short while after cutting out again.
Thanks for your replies Mike,In your original post you said "The only thing I can think of , is I can’t hear the fuel pump when I turn the ignition on."
The only code you have come up was "Only code was C0F90" The nearest to that in Autodata is P0090 Fuel Pressure Regulator Open Circuit. I am not naive enough to think it is the same, however it is a fuel error code.
Last Friday I mentioned, " Re the query at the fuel pump, it may be unrelated, but on one of my daughters cars a 06 Grande Punto the fuel pump and the starter wouldn't power up until power to the correct side of the relay was supplied. With a multimeter and a bit of common sense
On her car depending on the position of the ignition switch one of the trigger wires working the solenoid part of the relay should be - or + down the same wire from the ECU. It took a while to find it but the cause was a corroded wire just an inch away from the ECU plug .
So all you need to do to check this, is check the fuel pump relay is getting the correct signal to activate."
So did you power up the fuel pump relay using a fused test probe as I suggested?
So did you check for fuel pressure at the fuel injector rail, after the engine fired for a few seconds? If not fuel related then there would still be fuel under pressure at the rail for at least a short while after cutting out again.
When the ignition is switched on, there is voltage at the fuel pump for about 3 seconds.
I am starting to doubt myself about hearing the fuel pump now.
When you turn on the ignition should you hear the pump running constantly
Generally on turning ignition on, the pump will run for a few seconds to give line pressure and as far as I know only operates to keep line pressure constant when engine is running, otherwise if a hose split and engine stalled for what ever reason it could pump fuel over a hot engine!Thanks for your replies Mike,
When the ignition is switched on, there is voltage at the fuel pump for about 3 seconds.
I am starting to doubt myself about hearing the fuel pump now.
When you turn on the ignition should you hear the pump running constantly
When you experience it starting and then dying, was that as no further fuel was pumping after turning the ignition on, so I was curious as to whether there was fuel pressure at the injectors at the point of dying and if so, it points to more of an ignition issue.
Re blocked fuel filter, I would say unlikely as most modern petrol engines the filter is a gauze around the fuel pump inside the tank and unusual to cause trouble.
If you are a bit wary of undoing a fuel connection near the engine even with key off, has your Autel diagnostic tool got a option to read fuel pressure, if it shows pressure even as, or after the engine dies then it would seem to rule out a fuel issue.
Most modern petrol engine injectors operate around 40psi as a guide.
The Panda Nut
Nutty about Pandas Infected by Panda virus and OPD
Yes I agree, and I think this starting after being left is significant. My brain may engage at some point because there are bells ringing in the background. Its almost as if the fuel pressure has built up and there is some leakage into the motor that allows it to start, but then lack of fuel stops it. I suppose symptoms of fuel filter blockage. The other person reporting a non starter, and their maf sounds hopeful. Good luck its so frustrating when these things happen. MES allows you to see if the injectors are doing their thing and how long they open for. Logic says if you have fuel and spark it would start and that it must be must be a sensor misreporting and stopping it via the ecu. Also have a peep down the throttle body and check the inlet manifold is not swimming in yellow muck. Both our 1.2 Pandas had thisand cleaning it all out transformed the older one, The 2014 car had its fire trap filter in the breather changed as this was badly blocked as well although this is unlikely to prevent starting. I now have catch cans in the breather line and they take out a surprising amount of water and stop any mayo in the inlet manifold. The 2011 car had swamped the sensor in the manifold base.
Derbyfella
Established member
Derbyfella
Established member
Just chucking basic ideas about…..could this be a key/immobiliser issue?
SO !!!!
Just been back outside trying your suggestions.
Used the spare key to try it, and again it started and ran for a few seconds then cut out.
Again would not start.
Removed the air box to check the multiplugs which were all ok.
Went back to the fuel tank and removed what I guess is the feed pipe from the pump. PIC ATTACHED
Turned on the ignition and no fuel flow. Cranked the engine and still no flow. Is this the correct pipe ?
Also checked voltage at plug which was 12v for a second when ignition is turned on and 10.33 when cranking
the engine.
Does anyone know how to get the pump out of the tank.
Thanks
Just been back outside trying your suggestions.
Used the spare key to try it, and again it started and ran for a few seconds then cut out.
Again would not start.
Removed the air box to check the multiplugs which were all ok.
Went back to the fuel tank and removed what I guess is the feed pipe from the pump. PIC ATTACHED
Turned on the ignition and no fuel flow. Cranked the engine and still no flow. Is this the correct pipe ?
Also checked voltage at plug which was 12v for a second when ignition is turned on and 10.33 when cranking
the engine.
Does anyone know how to get the pump out of the tank.
Thanks
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Andy, please try what I suggested ages ago in this post, find the correct fuel pump relay and using a fused test probe, power it up when trying to start vehicle. If that is the problem you should hear the pump activating when you do it.
It worked for my daughters Grande Punto. As I said, the fault was a rotten wire at the ECU that activates the relay in the fuse box under the bonnet.
If you need to undo the fuel gauge sender/fuel pump, it is the large plastic ring in the photo you supplied, remove the wiring plug and the fuel connector then ideally you need a tool like this photo as it can be quite stiff to undo, don't loose the large O ring and don't cross thread the plastic nut, it is quite easy to do . Some people try a large flat screwdriver and a hammer to tap the ring nut around, even if you manage to undo it that way to tighten satisfactorily a proper tool is much easier. Obviously watch for sparks around petrol especially on a hot day!!!
It worked for my daughters Grande Punto. As I said, the fault was a rotten wire at the ECU that activates the relay in the fuse box under the bonnet.
If you need to undo the fuel gauge sender/fuel pump, it is the large plastic ring in the photo you supplied, remove the wiring plug and the fuel connector then ideally you need a tool like this photo as it can be quite stiff to undo, don't loose the large O ring and don't cross thread the plastic nut, it is quite easy to do
. Some people try a large flat screwdriver and a hammer to tap the ring nut around, even if you manage to undo it that way to tighten satisfactorily a proper tool is much easier. Obviously watch for sparks around petrol especially on a hot day!!!Attachments
Hi Mike,Andy, please try what I suggested ages ago in this post, find the correct fuel pump relay and using a fused test probe, power it up when trying to start vehicle. If that is the problem you should hear the pump activating when you do it.
It worked for my daughters Grande Punto. As I said, the fault was a rotten wire at the ECU that activates the relay in the fuse box under the bonnet.
If you need to undo the fuel gauge sender/fuel pump, it is the large plastic ring in the photo you supplied, remove the wiring plug and the fuel connector then ideally you need a tool like this photo as it can be quite stiff to undo, don't loose the large O ring and don't cross thread the plastic nut, it is quite easy to do
I am not sure what relay is for the fuel.
I did not want to start shorting things in case I fry the ECU.
Surely me testing the voltage proves the relay ?
Surely some one has a handbook showing the relays for your car, it may even be on the inside of the fuse box cover.
I can understand if you are not confident with car electrics, forgive me, I tend to take skills learnt over 50 years for granted. I wasn't suggesting taking a 12 volt supply and splashing it around inside the fusebox
. What I did was identify the fuel pump relay and activated it using a fused test probe safely. Then when finding this activated the fuel pump I then had to find out why the low power supply that tells the relay to work was not doing it's job, that took a lot longer, but was as I mentioned in earlier replies to your post.Can you safely connect a voltmeter to the pump 12 volt supply at the tank, if you are getting a reading which disappears when you crank the engine that could account for the engine firing and then dying out you mentioned earlier.
