Technical Camber issues

[306maxi]

Just wondering is another 500 owner can help me (jrkitching and bgunn, I'm looking at you )

Long story short, I took my 500 in for its MOT today and I got failed because apparently there is a cut in one of the tyres which was almost down to the cord. Was told that both front tyres were fairly worn on the inner edge anyway. Picked the car up and pretty worn was a pretty bull5h1t description. I'd say f**ked would be more apt

That's pretty ***ed isn't it? Sadly there's plenty of meat on the centre of the tyre and the same on the outside.

Now as most know I'm pretty anal when it comes to tyres and I know that up until about 3k miles ago all the tyres were wearing very evenly. I took the nearside front wheel off a few weeks ago to grease up the pads and there was no silly wear. Anyway, I needed to pass the MOT so I needed to replace one or both tyres there and then....

Cue driving around Llandudno and Mochdre either looking for Bridgestone or a Michelin or something decent or just a really really cheap nasty tyre to get it through the MOT at which point I could order a pair of decent tyres online and get them fitted at my leisure. No such luck. It was either overpriced crap or just expensive stuff that I simply didn't want. Luckily I've got a set of winter tyres at home so drove home, fitted 4 tyres in record time whilst multitasking (arguing with the wife who said I wouldn't get it done in time) and drove to the dealership for my winter tyres to be checked over.

Receptionist said that the MOT tester had considered failing me because my wheels were rusty...... :bang: Yeah they are rusty but it's just surface rust and I'd love to see him get a screwdriver through it..... Anyway got my MOT certificate.

Anyway, I'm sure anyone who knows anything about suspension will say that it looks like I'm running too much camber. Jason mentioned a while back that if you fit the top mount the wrong way around, then you'll get an extra degree or degree and a half of negative camber on the front wheels.

So basically if you have the little pointy tab facing the wrong way around you'll have too much negative camber and you will end up with tyres like mine. If someone who's not afraid to get ever so slightly dirty and has a 500 that hasn't had its strut top mounts changed could have a look under their car and report back I would be most appreciative. You can just pop your hand underneath and feel the tab at the back.

This is the view of the side of the strut top mount nearest the firewall of the car. You can see the tab

Here's the front end of the strut top mount, note the hole and absence of tab!

So not really sure where to go from here. Need to first make sure my strut top mounts are fitted the right way around. If they're fitted the wrong way around then its happy days and an easy fix, if not then I'm stumped.....

 

[RobW]

monroe magic camber bolts

 

[306maxi]

monroe magic camber bolts

Not fitting camber bolts if I don't need them though, if the dealership have ****ed up then they owe me some compensation for two dead tyres also

 

[jnoiles]

Oh hang on! I know what caused this!


You've grown a pair and kept your foot in around the corners.

 

[306maxi]

Oh hang on! I know what caused this!


You've grown a pair and kept your foot in around the corners.

Hehe

Strange thing is Jason. A few months ago I was actually going out and thrashing the 500 on the moors and the tyres steadfastly refused to wear, the last 3k miles was pretty much all motorway miles in Europe or driving like a granny back here and it's murdered the tyres

Perhaps I need to start driving harder as it seems to be easier on the tyres. Can only imagine that something's been reassembled wrongly to give me some extra camber or something. I forgot to mention as well, sometimes when coming to a stop the car will pull to the right. Left the dealer after I failed the MOT this morning, came to a roundabout and was braking and the wheel went over to 1 o'clock all by itself. This happened about a month ago and at the time I thought I had a flat, at the time I just put it down to camber in the road and thought nothing of it....

 

[Austin Mini]

In the 70s I ran a Team Hartwell Sunbeam Imp Sport fitted with Minilite mag wheels which had front wheels 2 degrees negative camber (you could see the wheels were closer at the top than the bottom). The tracking was spot on and the tires never ever wore as bad as you show in your first photo. Wear on your inside edges sugguest tracking is too much toe out. As for going to fail you on rusty wheels, well I think you should change your MOT station.

 

[D4nny8oy]

I'm not sure if you're aware, but incorrect toe settings can cause shoulder wear too.

Too much toe-in = outside edge wear
Too much toe-out = inside edge wear

Toe-out also makes it more nervous in a straight line, but more eager to turn into corners.

 

[306maxi]

Very true d4nny8oy. I did think though that toe would wear the whole edge rather than just a narrow strip.

I will take a better picture of the tyres with my dslr tomorrow. Just confuses me as to why the toe would be out all of a sudden when all that's been changed was the top mounts. Though you never know of course....

 

[306maxi]

In the 70s I ran a Team Hartwell Sunbeam Imp Sport fitted with Minilite mag wheels which had front wheels 2 degrees negative camber (you could see the wheels were closer at the top than the bottom). The tracking was spot on and the tires never ever wore as bad as you show in your first photo. Wear on your inside edges sugguest tracking is too much toe out. As for going to fail you on rusty wheels, well I think you should change your MOT station.

Thanks for the input. I only went for camber as the most likely culprit because there should have been no change to the toe angle. I guess it's time to get the allignment checked.....

 

[306maxi]

as for being failed on the rust, well I think the guy was obviously a bit ott. The rims look rusty but they're very much structurally sound The supposed hole in the tyre is the tiniest thing and I couldn't see the cord but that's just me.

 

[D4nny8oy]

Very true d4nny8oy. I did think though that toe would wear the whole edge rather than just a narrow strip.

I will take a better picture of the tyres with my dslr tomorrow. Just confuses me as to why the toe would be out all of a sudden when all that's been changed was the top mounts. Though you never know of course....

Officially you should check the alignment after any operation on the suspension (and is usually entered as a seperate claim when done under warranty), although it's often not done unless it's a wishbone or steering component.

The main purpose of the design of the top mounts is to alter the castor angle (models with power steering require different castor than models without), although this will affect the other geometry at the same time, with camber being closely tied-in with castor. Unfortunately I can't remember for certain which way round is correct.

 

[306maxi]

Officially you should check the alignment after any operation on the suspension (and is usually entered as a seperate claim when done under warranty), although it's often not done unless it's a wishbone or steering component.

The main purpose of the design of the top mounts is to alter the castor angle (models with power steering require different castor than models without), although this will affect the other geometry at the same time, with camber being closely tied-in with castor. Unfortunately I can't remember for certain which way round is correct.

Well I did take a picture before the work was done and it would appear that the top mount was fitted the same as it is now. But I can't really see for sure hence asking an owner for a picture or to have a good grope under their car

Will have to see if anyone is open tomorrow to do an allignment check.

 

[D4nny8oy]

Well I did take a picture before the work was done and it would appear that the top mount was fitted the same as it is now. But I can't really see for sure hence asking an owner for a picture or to have a good grope under their car

Will have to see if anyone is open tomorrow to do an allignment check.

Ah, cool. It should, and must, be the same both sides (both arrows pointing forward/rearward depending on which is correct). If they're pointing different ways, then it'll be a problem.

I think power steering models need less castor, but it's been a while since I last looked at one! lol

 

[GrandeGuy]

Very true d4nny8oy. I did think though that toe would wear the whole edge rather than just a narrow strip.

I will take a better picture of the tyres with my dslr tomorrow. Just confuses me as to why the toe would be out all of a sudden when all that's been changed was the top mounts. Though you never know of course....

The two bolts were taken out to remove the suspension strut it wasn't marked and the camber on that side (possibly both) is goosed,
Even being "fixed bolts" on "fixed holes" once loosened you will be alarmed at the amount you can add/subtract on camber,
Most tracking centers ain't equipped to adjust camber.
Find a good body shop and ask them how much, it has to go on almost a jig table and took me and my friend almost 2hours of inputting numbers into the computer, and a lot full lock,set straight,then steering wheel straight, etc to get it perfect.
Either way unless they do fixed price work your looking at 2/3hours labor
Mine cost £45 because i know him.

Looked similar to this.

 

[306maxi]

The Panda and 500 don't have adjustment of camber via camber bolts AFAIK.

 

[pmw123]

Mine had to have 2 new front tyres as they where bold on the inside only 8500miles on them to,drive normally mainly city driving,tested tracking and it was wayout.

 

[loveshandbags]

Mine had to have 2 new front tyres as they where bold on the inside only 8500miles on them to,drive normally mainly city driving,tested tracking and it was wayout.

It's often the simple 'things' that cause wear on the inside of tyres. Since Jason's 500 has had the standard suspension it's unlikely that the camber settings are to blame for the inside wear unless excessive wear in the suspension setup is a factor.

 

[ahmett]

Funny enough i did feel my tires werent wearing evenly, I will have a look at them and let you know.

 

[ahmett]

Funny enough i did feel my tires werent wearing evenly, I will have a look at them and let you know.

No sorry i checked it and wear is about the same, a bit more on the edges but then thats both sides so no issue there.

 

[Austin Mini]

My wife clipped a curb in the snowy weather earlier this year. Two months later I noticed her Clio was showing heavy wear on the outside edges of both front wheels. Took it to our local garage they checked and adjusted the tracking for £10 and re set to manufacturers settings. I replaced both front tires and now alls ok. Every time I replace front tires I always get the tracking checked, it could save you a fortune.