Buying a cheap(ish) third generation panda in the UK

[Lewis7]

Hello,

I'm new to the forum. I've always had an interest in Fiats but have never owned one. I'm looking to purchase a 2nd car for commuting (25 miles each way) and short runs with the family (partner and 2 year old son) - perhaps 5-10k miles per year. I've pretty much settled on getting a Fiat Panda, preferably post 2012 (and preferably ULEZ compliant). I'm looking at spending anything up to £4000. Would anyone have any recommendations of what to look out for, particularly regarding:

- 0.9 versus 1.2 on higher mileages/older vehicles. (I'm tempted by the 0.9)
- Any other important bits to look out for.

I'm based in the Scottish Borders, 20 miles from Edinburgh.

Many thanks

Lewis

 

[FiatMatt94]

You'd be better of with a 1.2 FIRE over the 0.9 twin air, although there is quite a fan base for the twin air I'm personally not a fan of them, the 1.2 although it's not quick they're pretty much bulletproof as long as you know the very few problem areas on them, they're not too fussy on oil, plugs & usual servicing stuff, I've had these engines where they haven't been looked after (my old mk1 Bravo) which had been abused all its life, got to about 120k before a catastrophic differential failure blew a hole in the gearbox & lost all the oil, to which it still drove for another 3 weeks until I scrapped it. If you look on the forum you will see all stories about twinair problems as they're very fussy on oil, DMF's are a known problem as well & parts are just generally expensive for the twin air, & paired with a Dualogic gearbox that's not a good combination, the list goes on, for my liking they're too problematic, the 1.3 multijet is quite a nice little engine, but that's only if you get a good one that's had regular oil changes & been regular maintained, get a bad one which hasn't been looked after & you'll soon know about it, the 1.2 on the other hand are tough little lumps, very dependable, parts availability is brilliant & parts are also cheap as chips, anyway known areas are

1) Sumps rotting out so inspect it on a regular basis
2) thermostat housings if they're on the original one with the plastic ends as they go brittle over time & collapse, warning signs are red anti freeze residue around where the hose joins onto the housing, cure is to fit one with a metal pipe instead of plastic
3) coolant pipe that's runs across the front of the engine rots out
4) Gearboxes can be a weak spot on these but again a lot of it is down to oil changes etc

I think I haven't missed anything but it's silly things that go wrong with these engines, the twin airs are just too problematic & not worth the hassle imo although some might disagree I'm just not a huge fan of them

 

[steveras57]

Agree with the above the 1.2 fire engine is well proven(old) but reliable if looked after all the week points are well documented! the twin air however is another story whilst more powerful and maybe more fun to drive this is offset by a higher degree of complexity and need for "cloth of gold "servicing! even cars that have had this sometimes suffer in later life(post 50k miles) with problems with the complex valve gear that cost a fortune to repair not uncommon on top off all the more well known points that can become issues! all told if you want a car that should be easy to look after and give good service without to many headaches the the 1.2 is the one to go for! I M O at least!. happy searching.

 

[vexorg]

Any petrol car after 2006 will be LEZ compliant in scotland.

I'd agree the 1.2 is relable, but a bit on the boring side.
It's worth reading up on the 0.9, it's a two cylinder turbo engine, with weird electronic controlled inlet valves.

 

[Lewis7]

Thanks for all the advice - that's very useful. I think it'll probably be a 1.2 then. Do the 1.2 Pandas have a timing belt or chain?

 

[FiatMatt94]

The 1.2 has a timing belt & it's an interference engine as well

 

[steveras57]

Thanks for all the advice - that's very useful. I think it'll probably be a 1.2 then. Do the 1.2 Pandas have a timing belt or chain?

belt same as the 500!

 

[The Panda Nut]

Avoid the pop as until very recently they didnt get the air con that easy and lounge have. Lounge is top spec but only really adds alloy wheels, Check alloys are not bent or deformed. Check the front rad is still in reasonable condition. Its the air con condenser which sits in front of the cooloing radiator. And they are prone to rotting. I agree the 1.2 is the best option but they vary from one to another and the Euro 6 compliant engines tend to bog down. I get around this by driving with gusto which the car likes. I totally love the twin air, BUT an exemplary service history is vital as oil plays a big part in the good running, and indeed running at all of the engine! TA is not economical but driving one does not feel like driving an 875cc car at all. I get 42 mpg approx and more on aa long run. The 1.2 does 45 to 60 on a long run. Listen for squeaking when you press the clutch pedal which indiocates failing clutch hydraulic cylinders which is around 150 in parts to fix. Your £4K budget should buy a nice clean example with a sensibl milage. Your use suggest the Panda would be perfect and they are great to drive. Listen for very clonky front suspension and avoid anything that does this. Its a fair job to resolve.

 

[Lewis7]

Ah - an interference timing belt. I'm very wary of timing belt breakages - already lost a Ford Mondeo and a Renault Clio to timing belt snaps. From what I was reading below, it looks like pre-2010 1.2 Pandas were non interference, and the diesels have always had a chain.

Fiat Panda II (2003-2012) - Reliability - Specs - Still Running Strong

Fiat Panda Specs & Wheel sizes. Read about typical problems: 1.3 MultiJet timing chain wear, Dualogic transmission failures, Euro 5 diesel particulate filters...

stillrunningstrong.com

 

[vexorg]

I thought the 60bhp engines were non-interfence on the panda

 

[rmjbn1]

it looks like pre-2010 1.2 Pandas were non interference, and the diesels have always had a chain.

That is correct, some time in 2010 they brought in the 69hp VVT interference engine to replace the earlier 60hp 'safe' engine, so a 2010 car could be either.

69hp may sound like a useful increase over 60hp, but they have pretty similar power curves until the VVT kicks in and develops extra bhp above 5000rpm.

I like the 60hp a lot, it suits the light (860kg) Panda perfectly, developing maximum torque from 2500rpm so it pulls up hills perfectly happily.

My choice would be a non-VVT 60hp 2010 model, which was tweaked to get into the lower £30 VED bracket.

On a 12+y.o. 169 Panda, there will probably be a few cheap consumables reaching the end of their life. Parts are cheap but labour bills might add up.

They're very well built, the FIRE engine is a tough well-proven design and bodies are galvanised so rust is kept to the few areas listed by Matt above - to which I would only add, check the rear spring pans. They're famous for rusting but easy to protect before they get too bad.

 

[rmjbn1]

Gearboxes can be a weak spot on these but again a lot of it is down to oil changes etc

I think the gearbox is generally OK but does have a specific weak point - the input shaft bearing which can break up and do internal damage if, as Matt says, oil is neglected. And transmission oil probably often is neglected - my handbook states only to check the level every 80k miles!

Luckily it's a cheap part (although maybe that's why it fails) - I would replace the input shaft bearing and seal when doing a clutch on these.

You can check if the bearing has failed by sticking a finger through the inspection hole in the bell housing - with the engine off!
It'll be filthy inside, but should be dry and dusty. If it's wet and black and smells of transmission oil then the bearing has caused the seal to fail and leak.

 

[Lewis7]

Thanks for all the advice. I was tempted by the older models too, but I've ended up buying a 2012 new model Panda this week, 98k miles. Quite reasonable condition, but no service history. It looks like it has had an oil change recently. Overall I'm quite happy with it, but a couple of niggles:

- clutch bite is a bit high, but I can get used to it.
- Headlights seem to be permanently on, I gather this may be related to a recall issue?

I guess I'll also need to decide whether to get the timing belt replaced...

 

[vexorg]

Timing belt was quite easy on them. Sump on the other hand can be a real pain. Worth checking it for corrosion.

 

[FiatMatt94]

Congrats on your purchase, looks really clean for it's age, the only thing I would suggest doing though is getting some rust converter on that front leg in the engine bay as I noticed the slight surface rust on it when i saw the picture, I've marked it with a red circle in the pic, whoever owned it previously must of looked after it as red is notorious for fading quite quick if not kept on top of