General Buying 500 1.2, 1.4 or 1.3MJ?

[UFI]

Furthermore, call me crazy, but I am of the opinion that the 1.4 is more reliable than the TA long term. What do you think?

I plan on keeping UFI for 20+ years, I guess we'll see. I suppose the 4cyls are likely to be more reliable, but when first looking at the TA, I found new, not reco, turbos for $400. Turbos always seem to be a major concern for folks but I wouldn't call $400 a big bill in the scheme of things (and weren't there a few failures in the early days?). The internet + a little diy can keep costs down.

I know someone with a Toyota bB that needed a new manual trans because the clutch fork had worn out (no replacement, can only get a new trans). You'd have never suspected buying a new Toyota that you'd be up for a new trans at relatively low miles.

 

[bgunn]

Any discussion of this can only be speculation, since there is no long term real-world reliability data for the production version of the TA engine.

My two cents worth is that, in the long term, both the TA & the 1.4 have the potential to give their owners unwelcome, expensive out-of warranty bills; the lowly-stressed 1.2 with its 'fail-safe' valve gear is probably indestructible short of gross negligence in maintenance (if it's got oil & coolant, it probably won't break catastrophically). If I had to choose between a TA & a 1.4 as a long-term keeper, my personal preference would be the 1.4, partly because it's more of a known quantity, partly because there isn't a turbo to worry about - but both need to be driven and maintained properly if they are going to last.

You're probably about right. Fortunately, turbo technology is pretty well established now and we've come a long way from when Porsche and SAAB were first using them in the 60s and 70s.

I think we can probably say that MultiAir technology has been proven to be pretty reliable, as there's no horror stories about the 1.4 MA engine (the TA has the same unit effectively sawn in half).

The bottom end of the TA is all new, but it's not that radical, and it seems stoutly engineered from the diagrams and workshop documents, following good engineering practice with a gear driven balance shaft, and a morse type chain for the camshaft drive (which will be under very low stress as it only has to drive 8 valves).

I suspect any issues will be the typical 'new engine' niggles, such as minor oil leaks, etc. I know there is a service notice about possible timing cover oil leaks due to assembly errors in the application of sealant on a certain batch of engines; but that could just as well happen to any engine.

I agree that, intrinsically (and logically), the 1.2 will be the most reliable, it contains very very simple tech and it's been in production for a considerable time, so all of the niggles have been identified in service.

 

[bgunn]

I plan on keeping UFI for 20+ years, I guess we'll see. I suppose the 4cyls are likely to be more reliable, but when first looking at the TA, I found new, not reco, turbos for $400. Turbos always seem to be a major concern for folks but I wouldn't call $400 a big bill in the scheme of things. The internet + a little diy can keep costs down.

I know someone with a Toyota bB that needed a new manual trans because the clutch fork had worn out (no replacement, can only get a new trans). You'd have never suspected buying a new Toyota that you'd be up for a new trans at relatively low miles.

Exactly, any engine can be expensive if it breaks and you go to the wrong place to buy parts. No-one with any sense is going to go to FIAT to buy the turbo if it goes pop on their TA. I would go to a turbocharger specialist, and probably have a custom built turbo made up to 'help' things along also

 

[The Twins]

Custom built turbo! I like the sound of that

 

[bgunn]

Well, it's only a Mitsubishi TD02 turbo, and the turbine and compressor wheels selected by FIAT for the TA will only be two out of a set of many (to suit different applications). These, of course, can be changed from original spec, depending upon what sort of compressor and turbine map you're aiming for, to tailor the behaviour of the turbo.

Obviously, the next issue is how the engine management responds to that, and whether there's a degree of tolerance. As the wastegate is controlled by the engine management there needs to be a way to alter the boost control map (there are five according to the documentation) to alter the boost delivered.

 

[ahmett]

I'd suggest sooner is better than later . IIRC jnoiles (who knows about such things and also drives his 1.4 hard) changes the timing belt every 10000 miles or so.



You won't be laughing if it breaks in service .

Yes but I get the feeling that too many people change it too early because of horror stories. Now according to the service schedule it says check at 60,000 km which I did. It really didn't look too bad. The dealer, wanting to make money, told me to get it changed after he told me horror stories about Alfa Romeos (this engine is not the twinspark though).
I will get car serviced again at 75,000 km and will check it again and take some pics. Waterpump isn't leaking either, car is less than 3 years old and no 'phantom' noises coming from the cambelt. With hindsight and being conservative, I think I will change belt + waterpump at this landmark. (75,000 km/3 years) and not wait until 120,000 km as Fiat recommends change intervals to me.

With an indie shouldn't cost the earth and better safe than sorry, so I can continue revving it to 7000!

Also so far, I have not seen on the internet of someone complaining about their Fiat 1.4 16V engine ruining the cambelt. If anyone has a story about this anywhere on the internet (fiat 500 or fiat panda), please let me know!

 

[The Twins]

Well, it's only a Mitsubishi TD02 turbo, and the turbine and compressor wheels selected by FIAT for the TA will only be two out of a set of many (to suit different applications). These, of course, can be changed from original spec, depending upon what sort of compressor and turbine map you're aiming for, to tailor the behaviour of the turbo.

Obviously, the next issue is how the engine management responds to that, and whether there's a degree of tolerance. As the wastegate is controlled by the engine management there needs to be a way to alter the boost control map (there are five according to the documentation) to alter the boost delivered.

Complicated stuff! Expert tuner required for all that I guess.
Wonder what mods will be done over the next couple if years? It bound to get 'tuned' as time goes on.

 

[arorat]

How many people do you see in traffic, when the car in front moves ten metres, they nail the throttle and then slam on the brakes. That's just wasting fuel (etc).

I also amazes me how many people can't do things like reverse out of their driveway without putting their car on the wrong side of the road, stopping askew etc. Or people who queue at a median opening and have one end or the other out in on-coming traffic when there's plenty of space for their car.

If these people can't drive, it's little wonder the have no understanding of Eco driving and start taking people to trading standards etc. If anything I'm amazed how easy it is to get very close to the quoted MPG figures in what is still a very tight car. I was fully expecting 35-40MPG at best, based on some reports.

I do run on 98 octane so maybe there's a little help in that.

If you give your car to granny, chances are she'll get better mileage by driving gently, but hyper milling is really about energy (momentum) conservation it's really not about driving slow.

UFI you are making very general statements about some drivers to feel good about how you drive (that is how its coming across here). Driving is not about getting out of the drive in a straight line or some one being gentle in a traffic queue. I understand your views, but lets not forget driving can be spirited with foot to the metal as well, mainly it's down to how one feels at the age they are.

 

[Mondaugen]

Yes, but not all of us have autobahns, sadly.

Not required. You’re not getting the same mileage at 40 and 70mph, do you?

But also no, if you're following close behind a big truck

Well, there’s a thin line between clever and stupid …

 

[bgunn]

UFI you are making very general statements about some drivers

Having driven for 16 years now, sadly UFIs generalisms are pretty close to the mark. Most people do *not* give a toss about how they drive, and get very defensive if given suggestions on basic improvements to their techniques.

Driving is not about getting out of the drive in a straight line or some one being gentle in a traffic queue. I understand your views, but lets not forget driving can be spirited with foot to the metal as well, mainly it's down to how one feels at the age they are.

Yes, but there's a difference between 'spirited' driving (in the right situation), and plain stupid driving (in the wrong situation).

 

[UFI]

UFI you are making very general statements about some drivers to feel good about how you drive (that is how its coming across here). Driving is not about getting out of the drive in a straight line or some one being gentle in a traffic queue. I understand your views, but lets not forget driving can be spirited with foot to the metal as well, mainly it's down to how one feels at the age they are.

Blasting forward ten meters is not spirited driving (and it's usually some rep-mobile, if it's an old skool V8 with a high stall t/c they're forgiven). If you can't manouver a car at low speed, you've got no chance at high speed. Maybe I'm old fashioned but I think that a good driver should be able to do everything well.

For the record, I have no problem at all with spirited driving. Quite the opposite in fact. I've had UFI up to 160km+ and he will get a chance to do track days and motorkhanas. I've owned Porsches, Skylines, and I run the old rally Australia roads (tail out, in 2wd) in my Jeep on weekends, including jumps

Not required. You’re not getting the same mileage at 40 and 70mph, do you?

Well, there’s a thin line between clever and stupid …

70 is already illegal here so I don't know

I suppose my main point is that getting good FE is about more than driving slow. In the city/suburbs here you hardly ever see a limit above 70km/h, at which speed I can execute a 90 degree turn without touching the brakes, and the tyre scrub slows the car to the residential limit of 50. I'm still in 5th gear and the display is reading 70 mpg as I continue on.

I love braking hard, heel toe downshifting, getting back on the power, but given the speed limits, in a modern car the brakes are really for emergencies only

 

[The Twins]

UFI, bgunn, you are so right. Most folks see driving as a purely practical activity that has to be done in order to get from a to b.
Very few consider driving as a real skill or art that can be continually honed.
I've been driving 30 yrs and still trying to get it right lol.

 

[306maxi]

hehe I've driven some of the rally Australia roadstoo, I got the 504 up to 160 on a downhill gravel stretch. Heaps of fun, I suspect you might have seen me around when I still lived in Perth.

 

[The Twins]

hehe I've driven some of the rally Australia roadstoo, I got the 504 up to 160 on a downhill gravel stretch. Heaps of fun, I suspect you might have seen me around when I still lived in Perth.

I hope that's 160kph maxi

 

[Venters]

I hope that's 160kph maxi

Pug 504 so probably more meters per minute.

 

[306maxi]

I hope that's 160kph maxi

Well, you aren't going to hit 160mph in one that's for sure!