General Building a Fiat 500 bodyshell from scratch

[fiat500]

It's very cold outside so I've had to put off tidying the garage before I get started on the next layer of Fiat 500 nonsense, and I've been looking at the range of bodypanel spares now available. It occurred to me that it's approaching the time when it might be possible to build a 500 bodyshell completely from new panels. the further you get from the waterline the less likely you are to see a repair panel; so roof replacements and some inner panels are not available. But from what can easily be obtained I did a quick calculation and find that for about £6000 you could have enough to build about 75% of the shell. That's not economical, but wouldn't be nice to have one that was newly constructed. I wonder how long before some enterprising company starts to do this?

I notice that spares prices, like everything else, are going up significantly and that the approximately £500 that I spent on repair panels in 2009-2012 would be around double that cost.

 

[smart51]

You can legally replace an entire body of the same specification of the one you remove. At a later date, you could fit a brand new engine and gearbox. Later still, replace the suspension and steering with new parts, and so on. Eventually you'd have a brand new car. But you couldn't make a brand new car from brand new parts unless you could make it pass an IVA test. The 'Ship of Theseus' is an interesting philosophical debate.

 

[fiat500]

You can legally replace an entire body of the same specification of the one you remove. At a later date, you could fit a brand new engine and gearbox. Later still, replace the suspension and steering with new parts, and so on. Eventually you'd have a brand new car. But you couldn't make a brand new car from brand new parts unless you could make it pass an IVA test. The 'Ship of Theseus' is an interesting philosophical debate.

There is a way to register such a car in the UK that requires a bit of subterfuge and possession of a document; it would work, but it is illegal.

There was a 500 on eBay a few weeks ago that had no documents and was far to good to scrap; I suspect that it will soon be on the road by the same means.

 

[Toshi 975]

I bought a complete set of parts some years ago to build a brand new engine. There was no engine number on the crankcase so you could stamp what you like on there.

 

[Bigvtwin996]

The Italians (rumoured) would bring cars to the UK for which documents were lost and get them registered as in Italy there is no facility to register once the documents were lost....

If anyone ever remembers that dodgy pair of car restorers that had a show, an annoying motor mouth and bus mechanic...
why they were not prosecuted for "ringing" = "Bringing a shell back from Italy" to complete a 500 restoration I do not know....
It appears the rules are not for mortals....

a guy I knew looked at taking 500 shells and completely restoring them on an exchange basis.... how would he get round the shell number stamping, well of course he said I was not really offering an exchange but would restore their shell as you could see by the fact it had the original shell number under the bonnet....
Amazing work, so quick as well..... I bet he never thought of cutting the number out and seamlessly welding it into a restored shell....

as has been said only the roof and a few inner panels are not made... if someone made a really good jig you could make quite a busiess doing perfect shell restorations...

It was asked years ago if anyone coul make a complete vw Spliscreen van shell... but because the roof was not availale then the answer was no....
Now you can buy a complete shell from China, much the same you can buy a complete mk1 Escort shell eiher as a finished shell or a DIY pallet kit..

 

[fiat500]

The Italians (rumoured) would bring cars to the UK for which documents were lost and get them registered as in Italy there is no facility to register once the documents were lost....

If anyone ever remembers that dodgy pair of car restorers that had a show, an annoying motor mouth and bus mechanic...
why they were not prosecuted for "ringing" = "Bringing a shell back from Italy" to complete a 500 restoration I do not know....
It appears the rules are not for mortals....

a guy I knew looked at taking 500 shells and completely restoring them on an exchange basis.... how would he get round the shell number stamping, well of course he said I was not really offering an exchange but would restore their shell as you could see by the fact it had the original shell number under the bonnet....
Amazing work, so quick as well..... I bet he never thought of cutting the number out and seamlessly welding it into a restored shell....

as has been said only the roof and a few inner panels are not made... if someone made a really good jig you could make quite a busiess doing perfect shell restorations...

It was asked years ago if anyone coul make a complete vw Spliscreen van shell... but because the roof was not availale then the answer was no....
Now you can buy a complete shell from China, much the same you can buy a complete mk1 Escort shell eiher as a finished shell or a DIY pallet kit..

There's an interesting You Tube channel that I watch, where the very talented owner creates one-off, rat-rod style death-traps from a mixture of rusty old parts from the 1930s. I wouldn't want to be the one to dob him in, as what he does is harmless, very skilful and entertains a lot of people, but it's a very grey area how he is able to create a car that complies with no pre-existent type, that has undergone major structural change (ie. been hacked to bits) and which is then returned to the road, carrying pre-war registration plates without having to have any kind of inspection or test.

 

[Bigvtwin996]

If anyone was into "Hot Rods" then they will have heard of Boyd Coddington he was pulled up for using dodgy log books identities and not retaining mcuh of original cars in the the courts by teh authorities in States... think he may have been on one of those American tv shows...

 

[smart51]

There's an interesting You Tube channel that I watch, where the very talented owner creates one-off, rat-rod style death-traps from a mixture of rusty old parts from the 1930s. I wouldn't want to be the one to dob him in, as what he does is harmless, very skilful and entertains a lot of people, but it's a very grey area how he is able to create a car that complies with no pre-existent type, that has undergone major structural change (ie. been hacked to bits) and which is then returned to the road, carrying pre-war registration plates without having to have any kind of inspection or test.

If you keep the chassis unmodified and keep two of the axles (both), gearbox and engine, you can modify the rest and be legal for the road with just an MOT. As soon as you modify the chassis, you need an IVA and have to comply with the construction and use regs in the book. Engine emission standards are based on the engine's age though. Mind you, you can replace the axles and gearbox on the donor car before starting work. You can do an engine swap too if you update the V5 with the new engine number. Essentially, all you need is the unmodified chassis.

 

[Bigvtwin996]

loads of ways round the IVF rules... but try building a US style hotrod and keeping the real ID thats what Coddington was doing...
Now the UK issue is putting Electric motors in cars...
there is a huge case involving a Mini, that is now effectivly scrap because of the conversion...
partly due to that program where they converted lots of cars...

 

[the hobbler]

If anyone was into "Hot Rods" then they will have heard of Boyd Coddington he was pulled up for using dodgy log books identities and not retaining mcuh of original cars in the the courts by teh authorities in States... think he may have been on one of those American tv shows...

loads of ways round the IVF rules... but try building a US style hotrod and keeping the real ID thats what Coddington was doing...
Now the UK issue is putting Electric motors in cars...
there is a huge case involving a Mini, that is now effectivly scrap because of the conversion...
partly due to that program where they converted lots of cars...

loads of ways round the IVF rules... but try building a US style hotrod and keeping the real ID thats what Coddington was doing...
Now the UK issue is putting Electric motors in cars...
there is a huge case involving a Mini, that is now effectivly scrap because of the conversion...
partly due to that program where they converted lots of cars...

 

[the hobbler]

Peter, if we are thinking about the same program (the one with an Indian 'designer') than if I remember correctly they also swapped MGB bodies midway through one program, and forgot to tell anybody! Personally, I would NOT have wished to cross swords with the 'mechanic'---he used to be the mechanic for the Cray twins!

 

[Bigvtwin996]

nahhhh it wasn't that one.. although the mechanics claim to have been the mechanic for the twins seems to be more myth (self created) than reality...
and the word designer is a bit extravagant given the monstrosities the other one created...

the one with the tall lankey one that thinks hes a comedian that all the places he visits are glad when he leaves...
they tend not to restore cars just change as much as they can for reconditioned or get someone else to do it and then assemble a kit if parts...
and call it "restoration"

 

[the hobbler]

nahhhh it wasn't that one.. although the mechanics claim to have been the mechanic for the twins seems to be more myth (self created) than reality...
and the word designer is a bit extravagant given the monstrosities the other one created...

the one with the tall lankey one that thinks hes a comedian that all the places he visits are glad when he leaves...
they tend not to restore cars just change as much as they can for reconditioned or get someone else to do it and then assemble a kit if parts...
and call it "restoration"

Are you talking about "Car SOS"? I have met Fuzz Townsend on a couple of occasions---really nice guy. The "tall lanky one" as you described him in fact didn't like doing the jokey "how little can I get it for" routines, but it was what the production company wanted. Fuzz told me about the Fiat 500 programme some time before it was aired---and as a result of that program, I found a great 'motor-theme' cafe----'The Oil-can Cafe' in Holmfirth. Well worth a visit.

 

[bugsymike]

I think with most of the "Car Programmes" as long as you watch for their entertainment value, rather than a way to learn more about vehicles you can't go wrong. In aspects of the engineering side, I often think that the lecturers I had in my day would have shouted out at the way the so called "Pros" worked.
In the earlier Boyd Coddington series of American Hot Rod I quite enjoyed watching the cantankerous old guy shaping metal, using technics from the 1940s and 50s, but it lost it's way towards the end.
Top Gear's Clarkson was/is an entertaining idiot and fun to watch, but no sane person would ever take his guidance on engineering. When they "ousted " him the later format lost it way and the viewing public in my opinion, so was only going one way.
Back to the original start of the thread on building a car from the new parts available, I recall in the early 1970s a customer of a local BMC garage wanted a Morris 1000 which had ceased production, all the parts were available, so he got them to build him one, I believe it cost roughly double the price but he was happy.
The legal aspects were not as stringent as today re type approval etc. I remember building a Villiers engined trials bike from a pile of parts and the local Police Vehicle Department inspected all the receipts and was happy and then produced a set of stamps, asked me my initials,date of birth and a couple of other things and stamped them into the headstock as the new chassis number, took down all the details and I was able to receive a Log book (earlyV5) with no problems.
Funny enough later when using it on the road a few months later another Police man stopped me re the exhaust noise, after chatting for a while he suggested mods to reduce the sound slightly and went on his way. Cannot see that happening these days.

 

[Bigvtwin996]

The original Car SOS garage is just round the corner from our workshop..... the people who actually did the work and were ordered out of the workshop when Buzz was on the way didn't really have any good words for him.....
everything was set up for by the guys there for when the crew arrived...
20mins of turning a spanner or fitting something then gone....

There are several other local stories that show a different side......
I think most "personalities" have a side they want the public to see often coached and simply an act....

I agree though most car shows and similar are not designed to be informative just simply entertainment....

 

[Toshi 975]

As this discussion broadens out I was recently alerted to rather worrying and annoying trends on the internet. A growing number of individuals setting themselves up as online experts making YouTube videos with a limited knowledge of the subject matter to the point that I think some of the advice given misses important points or can be downright dangerous. The annoying bit is that some of the content looks to be directly cribbed from forums such as this where members freely give advice passing on knowledge & experiences with the best of intentions.
A much younger and more internet savvy mate explained to me that these guys ask people to subscribe to them and follow them hoping that they will get enough followers that makes their content attractive to advertisers that will generate an income.

 

[Bigvtwin996]

As an Ex IT consultant... "Never believe anything yo see or read online"
Always ensure the website you view is the official one as people clone company sites...

I was shown perfect clones opf HMRC and Barclays, only a light difference in the domain name was the give away..

 

[bugsymike]

As this discussion broadens out I was recently alerted to rather worrying and annoying trends on the internet. A growing number of individuals setting themselves up as online experts making YouTube videos with a limited knowledge of the subject matter to the point that I think some of the advice given misses important points or can be downright dangerous. The annoying bit is that some of the content looks to be directly cribbed from forums such as this where members freely give advice passing on knowledge & experiences with the best of intentions.
A much younger and more internet savvy mate explained to me that these guys ask people to subscribe to them and follow them hoping that they will get enough followers that makes their content attractive to advertisers that will generate an income.

I maybe wrong but some seems to be AI in it's way of introducing it's self.
Progress isn't always in a forward direction.

 

[the hobbler]

I maybe wrong but some seems to be AI in it's way of introducing it's self.
Progress isn't always in a forward direction.

I totally agree with you 'Bugsy'---many years ago when the M/Benz garage that I helped to set up got its first computer, as a member of the 'salaried' staff, I got 'volunteered' to back-up the computer at the end of each working day---a very tedious job for which, even though I often did not get home to very late in the evening, I got no extra payment (the whole point of volunteering salaried staff!). Eventually, the system got up-rated so I no longer had to back-up the system, at which point I came up with the pithy comment---"progress is movement, but with no guarentee that it is forward"----and that still seems to hold true!

 

[fiat500]

Although I strongly object to the fact that UK vehicle construction law has loopholes that allow financial gain by such things as the "cloned" "SOS" 500 to be achieved, I think that the rules simultaneously benefit amateur car "restorers" like me, in that we get away with a degree of deconstruction and reconstruction of cars that some other countries would not allow without having post-surgery inspections.

Some of the more recent Fiat 500s have been that we see being restored, for instance on this forum, are torn down to being skeletal before the rebuild. The amount of new metal that is skilfully replaced often means that externally, at least, the car is a new bodyshell. Couple that with a changed engine and gearbox and all the easily obtained shiny bits and internals, and it's hardly any different from a re-shell.