Technical  Binding rear brake (perhaps)

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Technical  Binding rear brake (perhaps)

romniox789

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When my 500F car is cold all wheels are free and I can roll it just fine. But, after a 5 mile drive, the rear left wheel feels like its binding (I put it up on a jack and confirmed that's the wheel that is sticking'. It smells very hot too of course...

Before I disassemble the hub, any tips on what I should be looking for? Seems weird it only does it after a drive - maybe something sticking...?

All thoughts welcome!

Cheers
 
Something is wrong with this brake, from your video I think you are missing the pin that connects the two levers, the spring that brings the handbrake lever to its initial position is also missing. The brake cylinder that controls the brake shoes seems blocked, its pistons should go back slightly when pressed by hand. If the brake shoes have worn out because they were not properly seated in the drum and if the brake cylinder is blocked, I would replace all these parts with new ones... bad brakes can put your life in danger,,, especially in this Fiat that does not even have 0.10 Euro NCAP safety stars. 😁
That would explain why the handbrake doesn’t retract properly!
 
That would explain why the handbrake doesn’t retract properly!
Missing pin would explain why handbrake doesn't work at all.
In your video it is clear the handbrake mech is loose and pistons don't move at all. So zero braking effort on that wheel by foot or hand.
It appears however did the brake work gave up on it and manually forced the shoes out until it was very hard to fit drum over shoes and handed vehicle back-I have no words at the moment to describe that action given it puts lives /health at great risk
 
A quick Google heavily hints that original brake system is single circuit.
A dual circuit conversion is available that puts front on one circuit and rear on another circuit.
Please post pic of your master cylinder.

car is unsafe no braking on one wheel is unsafe. You will fix it though with forum help.
 
Missing pin would explain why handbrake doesn't work at all.
In your video it is clear the handbrake mech is loose and pistons don't move at all. So zero braking effort on that wheel by foot or hand.
It appears however did the brake work gave up on it and manually forced the shoes out until it was very hard to fit drum over shoes and handed vehicle back-I have no words at the moment to describe that action given it puts lives /health at great risk
I think something has failed recently, because I was able to push the car around when I bought it - I assume the brake line is blocked. So the question really is how to bleed it properly.

Attached some pictures of the brake master cylinder and slave.

Just disassembled the back right hub it is also missing the handbrake return spring, but the brake cylinder and handbrake work fine. Pictures attached.
 

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There is a major chance that if whatever is blocking fluid to rear left "let's go" you would have NO BRAKES WHATSOEVER.
It might just be that the brake cylinder is knackered. Start there and work backwards, I guess. I think the easiest thing to do would be to try losing the bleed and see if pumping the brake causes brake fluid to come through. If so, then it’s definitely the cylinder.
 
Well, I think I know where the problem is. I’ve backed off the bleed, and nothing came out. So I went backwards on all the joints on the brake pipe, and it would appear the rubber joining part is blocked. Either side is ok, but nothing passes through that segment.
 

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Well done . Brake hose.

Be very careful when you tighten the hose union nuts , the copper pipe is very soft and hose union nuts easily deform sealing flare on pipe. Do not over tighten.
 
Well done . Brake hose.

Be very careful when you tighten the hose union nuts , the copper pipe is very soft and hose union nuts easily deform sealing flare on pipe. Do not over tighten.
A number of people have given sound advice regarding your "lack-of-brake" problem (particularly "BugsyMike"), so I won't expand on that---however your question regarding the front hub-bearing-retaining nut. The nuts are left-hand thread on the right of the car and right-hand thread on the left side of the car. The nuts are done up tight enough to take up the bearing play and still turn smoothly. The outer rim of the nuts are then "stanked" (deformed) into the slot in the stub-axle. I modified an old, large, chisel by grinding the point off into a "small-radius" that would allow me to deform the outer lip of the nut into the groove.
 
A number of people have given sound advice regarding your "lack-of-brake" problem (particularly "BugsyMike"), so I won't expand on that---however your question regarding the front hub-bearing-retaining nut. The nuts are left-hand thread on the right of the car and right-hand thread on the left side of the car. The nuts are done up tight enough to take up the bearing play and still turn smoothly. The outer rim of the nuts are then "stanked" (deformed) into the slot in the stub-axle. I modified an old, large, chisel by grinding the point off into a "small-radius" that would allow me to deform the outer lip of the nut into the groove.
Excellent advice, thank you very much. I’m really struggling to find any torque settings for the bolts going through the hub; at the moment it seems to be ‘almost lifting off the axle stand’ setting. But if anybody happens to know the real numbers, that would be fantastic.
 
Excellent advice, thank you very much. I’m really struggling to find any torque settings for the bolts going through the hub; at the moment it seems to be ‘almost lifting off the axle stand’ setting. But if anybody happens to know the real numbers, that would be fantastic.
Hi, there is some terminology that would help , you may mean bolts retaining stub axle ? But we don't know for sure or if front or rear please post photo of bolts you refer too. Someone will help.
Hopefully someone will also recommend a manual for you to purchase.
Kind regards
Jack
 
Hi, there is some terminology that would help , you may mean bolts retaining stub axle ? But we don't know for sure or if front or rear please post photo of bolts you refer too. Someone will help.
Hopefully someone will also recommend a manual for you to purchase.
Kind regards
Jack
it may well be my terminology that’s at fault, almost certainly – I’m talking about the four bolts behind the back wheels that hold the drum on. I have the Fiat 500 workshop manual, and the Hayes manual, but neither seem to have the value, or, I am looking at the wrong thing!
 
it may well be my terminology that’s at fault, almost certainly – I’m talking about the four bolts behind the back wheels that hold the drum on. I have the Fiat 500 workshop manual, and the Hayes manual, but neither seem to have the value, or, I am looking at the wrong thing!
If you are talking about the 4 x 19mm screws that hold the drum onto the stub-axle flange, as far as I can find, there is no specific torque (even in the factory w/shop manual)---so I just do them up B---y tight! The wheel-bolt torque is 35ft lb
 
If you are talking about the 4 x 19mm screws that hold the drum onto the stub-axle flange, as far as I can find, there is no specific torque (even in the factory w/shop manual)---so I just do them up B---y tight! The wheel-bolt torque is 35ft lb
Yep that’s them - had to use an extension on a spanner and a huge breaker bar to get them off!
 
On The rear four drum to hub retaining bolts have m12x1.5 thread and are grade 8.8 accordingly I suggest 80nm torque with a new spring washer or medium strength thread lock compound
 
Work completed this evening. Blocked Brake hose replaced, brake fluid flushed and bled (oh the fun). While I was there fitted new handbrake mechanisms on both rear brakes and put back the return springs that someone had deleted. While front wheels off I checked brakes and - removed the red grease from wheel bearings, and replaced with fresh ep2. Changed out the hub grease cap holders and replaced all the wheel bolts while there since one snapped on me last week. I also replaced some fuel hose that had been put straight through the body without a grommet (and put a grommet in if course), and removed the fuel filter directly above the dynamo. Whatever isn’t copper fuel line is now cavis hose which I like since you can tell if there are any air leaks very easily.

Handbrake now has much less travel on it now, but quite hard to get to the third Notch which provides the friction needed (tips please?). Brakes seem fine, was not able to get the brake pedal to the top – it’s back where it was before, action starts about 25% of the way down the pedal travel which I am ok with. Under extreme braking the car does try to move to the right, but it did that before this work too, so I’m not totally sure what’s going on there, but it’s only under extreme breaking, (close to lock-up).

Frustrating that after the extreme braking tests, I have a very slight squeal on the front brakes, but I cooper greased the pins that the pads sit on, so not really sure – any suggestions welcome…

Good work to get done, but bleeding the brakes was annoying. I bought two solo bleed kits, neither of them had a cap that was small enough for the reservoir. So I ended up with a motorcycle bleed kit, essentially just a hose with a connector to plug onto the bleed, with a one-way valve. Required a second person and a bit messy, but did the trick, and only cost £5. I do wonder what gets the strongest fit around the bleed though, because this wasn’t perfect.
 
Bravo, you did a good job.
My car to tends to go a little to the right when I brake hard, I don't like this at all, I changed all the brake elements, I checked the wheel pressure, I checked the brake cylinders - small in the back, large in the front, I widened the handbrake so that it wouldn't influence the rear brake shoes,,, nothing worked,,, I think that the braking imbalance could come from the steering geometry, or maybe a mismatch between the parallelism of the front and rear wheels,,,, strangely my car passed the mandatory technical inspection (mot). I would also like a new idea regarding the slightly uneven braking.
Regarding brake bleeding, I also use a system that "sucks" the fluid and air from the system through the brake cylinder bleeder and I noticed that it helps a lot that before installing the drilled screw that bleeds the piston, you wrap its thread with two or three turns of Teflon tape that is used to seal metal water pipes.... This way, when you unscrew the bleeder a little and use the bleeder system that sucks, no air enters past the bleeder thread, another advantage is that the bleeder is a little easier to unscrew after a longer period of time - it no longer seizes in the brake piston thread.
 
Work completed this evening. Blocked Brake hose replaced, brake fluid flushed and bled (oh the fun). While I was there fitted new handbrake mechanisms on both rear brakes and put back the return springs that someone had deleted. While front wheels off I checked brakes and - removed the red grease from wheel bearings, and replaced with fresh ep2. Changed out the hub grease cap holders and replaced all the wheel bolts while there since one snapped on me last week. I also replaced some fuel hose that had been put straight through the body without a grommet (and put a grommet in if course), and removed the fuel filter directly above the dynamo. Whatever isn’t copper fuel line is now cavis hose which I like since you can tell if there are any air leaks very easily.

Handbrake now has much less travel on it now, but quite hard to get to the third Notch which provides the friction needed (tips please?). Brakes seem fine, was not able to get the brake pedal to the top – it’s back where it was before, action starts about 25% of the way down the pedal travel which I am ok with. Under extreme braking the car does try to move to the right, but it did that before this work too, so I’m not totally sure what’s going on there, but it’s only under extreme breaking, (close to lock-up).

Frustrating that after the extreme braking tests, I have a very slight squeal on the front brakes, but I cooper greased the pins that the pads sit on, so not really sure – any suggestions welcome…

Good work to get done, but bleeding the brakes was annoying. I bought two solo bleed kits, neither of them had a cap that was small enough for the reservoir. So I ended up with a motorcycle bleed kit, essentially just a hose with a connector to plug onto the bleed, with a one-way valve. Required a second person and a bit messy, but did the trick, and only cost £5. I do wonder what gets the strongest fit around the bleed though, because this wasn’t perfect.
Sounds like you have had a busy few days.:)
Generally I manually bleed brakes but if a persistent tricky one, then where possible I prefer a pressure bleed as opposed to a vacuum type, the reason being if system weak, particularly master cylinders, then a vacuum will suck in the brake seals and introduce air into the system where a pressure will not.
Re the brake travel once no air in the system, as I mentioned earlier @ #9, that design of self adjusters relies on friction to keep the shoes correctly adjusted and unless good genuine replacement shoes and adjusters what happens is the weak adjusters slide back out of adjustment with the strength of the brake shoe return springs.
The correct thing is good quality parts, but the cheat is to slightly weaken the top return spring so it doesn't overcome the self adjusters, a slight twist of a flat screwdriver between one of the spring coils is usually enough, then as mentioned earlier, you ease the shoes outwards with a flat screwdriver pulling the self adjusters outwards a little to a point where you can just slide the brake drums on, then give the drum a light tap with a copper mallet to square the shoes up and the drum will spin freely whilst still at max. adjustment position. This of course is with handbrake cable adjustment backed off beforehand, if this is done front and rear then the brake pedal should be as good as it can be. You can then adjust handbrake cable if required.
Regarding your other issue regarding brake bias, as in pulling to one side on braking, I think you will find it is nothing to do with steering geometry.
When I started in the motor trade many cars still had drum brakes front and rear, disc brakes unless major fault tend to be much better in stopping in a straight line.
The trick is on drum brakes to file a lead on the leading brake shoes (make sure it is only the leading shoes) the leading shoe on a single double acting wheel cylinder is where you look at the direction of rotation of that wheel you will see usually the front shoe if cylinder at top of back plate, is the leading shoe. What I was taught at MV college in 1969 is that the leading shoe gives a "self servo action" which increases braking effort by trying to grab on more than a trailing shoe. This is good for improving brake power, but if shoes have a tendency to grab on, the answer is to file away a slight lead on that leading edge to reduce the "self servo action" often all you need is a rough file to make a slope from where the shoe friction material starts to contact the brake drum, it doesn't need to be much 10-15mm, just enough so it contacts the drum at a less sharp angle.
Another point to check when fitting brake shoes is usually the leading shoe has less brake material nearest to the wheel cylinder than the trailing shoe, I have often seen that wrong!
If you are not sure what I mean ask and I will try and draw a picture, but my artistic skills are very limited.;)
Note you must do the same on both sides of front brakes equally.
It does work, my test is 30mph on an empty flat road, hands off steering wheel and brake hard without skidding to a stop in a straight line! :)
Of course, at your own risk if you try this at home folks.;)
 
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