Technical Bad Idle, Judder and Brake revving

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Technical Bad Idle, Judder and Brake revving

As posted on another thread

Nice quick test

Let’s see if we have an exhaust leak pre CAT

Put your hand over the exhaust pipe at the back of the car

Does the pressure build up

If it does good we can move on. If it’s leaking where will have to be investigated
 
It definitely sounds to me that the problem is air leak. You cannot find it with spray, cause it's in a hidden place, between intake manifold and cylinder head.
Had this problem and fixed it.
Check this post:

And you can see there the initiator of that topic replaced everything electric, with no success.
Before anything else, I recommend you put a new set of manifold gaskets.
 
Would it not be best to test that out first, before tearing down the intake.

If it was leaking at the manifold, covering up the main throttle choke then gradually (and carefully, you might want to put a sturdy glove on) covering the ICV with your hand should cause it to find it's air to run from the leak rather than just through the throttle body.

If it is leaking, by gradually covering the chokes you might even hear where it's pulling in air.

If it's just getting it's air via the throttle body, the engine should stall instantly the chokes are covered and create a vacuum behind your hand (why I wrote carefully).

It would probably stall even if it was leaking but it would likely stutter a bit as it tries to run on the leaking air and the vacuum would be hardly noticable after it does stall.
 
Would it not be best to test that out first, before tearing down the intake.

If it was leaking at the manifold, covering up the main throttle choke then gradually (and carefully, you might want to put a sturdy glove on) covering the ICV with your hand should cause it to find it's air to run from the leak rather than just through the throttle body.

If it is leaking, by gradually covering the chokes you might even hear where it's pulling in air.

If it's just getting it's air via the throttle body, the engine should stall instantly the chokes are covered and create a vacuum behind your hand (why I wrote carefully).

It would probably stall even if it was leaking but it would likely stutter a bit as it tries to run on the leaking air and the vacuum would be hardly noticable after it does stall.
Correct

Diagnose first

I have already asked in post 26
We need feedback from the original poster otherwise these threads run and run with every possible combination of suggestion
 
That is corect and he should do that test. Problem is that he said he already put a new TB on. I assumed the new TB came with new IAC valve and new throttle flap positioning sensor. If so, clearly that test wouldn't reveal much.
@DTanner was it so? Did you bought the new TB completley equipped?
 
Ok, I obviously owe you all an update and I have made some progress and a discovery of a new symptom. However, I will lay out what I did in the order I did it, just in case there are useful bits in there somewhere that I do not understand the significance of.

1) Error Code Check:
The error code was back, this specific error code has been recurring. I have had it appear every now and then over the past 7 odd years. I saved the diagnostic report with freeze frames if that means anything to anyone.
Error_Code.jpg

Diagnostic_Report_P1of4.jpg

Diagnostic_Report_P2of4.jpg

Diagnostic_Report_P3of4.jpg

Diagnostic_Report_P4of4.jpg

2) ECU Connector Clean:
Decided to remove the two ECU connectors and spray some contact cleaner on them. Then I reassembled them. They looked fine.

3) Blocked the Exhaust:
I blocked the exhaust with the engine running and no pressure was built up. The silencer weld to the pipe running the length of the car is gone and it is leaking heavily. This is currently an advisory from an MOT 6 months ago. I check near the CAT whilst running and blocking and did not notice/hear a leak in that space (the one at the silencer was obvious).

4) Check Battery Voltage:
On the OBDII reader the voltage read was varying a lot from 13.5 V to 14.2 V (during idling - with no additional accessories on, e.g., radio, cabin fan, etc.). Not sure how much I believe it. The battery is new (like two weeks old) - Bosch S4 Car Battery 202. I will throw a multimeter on it to check later.

5) Look at Fuel and Coolant Data:
I had a look at Coolant and Fuel trim data but did not see anything with this that stood out to me. For the fuel system I could only find trim data.
Fuel_Trim_Data.jpg


Also had a drive where I checked coolant temperature as well. Looked ok. I was messing around at the start, then idled until ~1000 and drove between 1000 and 2200ish and then idled again until the end.

Coolant_Data_Drive.jpg


6) Check for Vacuum Leaks:
I carefully blocked the smaller inlet on the throttle body that goes to the idle control valve. The engine struggled, but stayed alive with the engine idle holding at ~500 RPM. The graph shows the two time I blocked it. This made me think that a vacuum leak might be present.
Vacuum_Leak_Check_Blocked_ICV.jpg

However, I then blocked both throttle body inlets (to the butterfly valve and the idle control valve) and the engine died very quickly (see plot below). Though the butterfly valve appeared well seated there was clearly a leak flow around it. Pretty sure this should not affect idle though as it is all before the MAP. I then blocked the butterfly valve inlet, leaving only the idle control valve inlet open and it made no difference. Just a double check that it was not affecting idle.
Vacuum_Leak_Check_Blocked_ThrottleBody.jpg


7) Revert to old Throttle Body:
In this I wanted to see what would happen if I put the old Throttle Body back on. Why? In changing the throttle body originally it did not make a difference, then I changed other things (like lambda and map sensors) so I switched it back just to see. What happened? Perfect warm engine idle, holding a solid 800ish RPM.

New Throttle Body – Directly Before Swap:
Test_New_ThrottleBody_Before.jpg


Old Throttle Body – Directly After Swap:
Note this is holding a steady 800ish RPM as expected!
Test_Old_ThrottleBody_After.jpg


Old Throttle Body – Directly After Swap (repeat of the previous one - to check was it a fluke):
Note this is holding a steady 800ish RPM as expected as before. However, this time there is a little spike in the intake manifold pressure between ~120-160 and again between ~310-340. These both coincide with where the engine radiator fan has kicked in. The car felt great after this but again it did not hold and high idle emerged again.
Test_Old_ThrottleBody_After_Repeat.jpg


8) Major Discovery - Idle Affected by Electrical Load:
Shortly after my perfect new idle (from point 7 above) I drove to pick up one of my kids. I parked up and switched off the main lights - and the engine reved!
I had not seen/noticed this behaviour before and it was repeatable. I found that switching on/off the main beams while idling was shifting the idle RPM by 300-400ish RPM (i.e., when I switched the lights the RPM dropped from 1200 to 800 and when I switched them again the went back from 800 to 1200). I could not capture the data from this (as I did not have my computer with me).
By the time I got home it was not as bad as this but I looked carefully at the RPM and Intake Manifold Pressure as I switched the electrical load in the car (e.g., turning on/off the main lights and the cabin blower).
The plots below are for a cold engine started and warming up. It was idling all the time and I basically tested: turning on main beam lights, turning on the cabin fan/blower, turned on both lights and fan, turned on everything I could (labelled "max on" with lights, fan, rear demister, radio, emergency indicators all on), and then messed around with turning things on and off. In between each of these I had a period of nothing on to re-establish a baseline before the next test. Note: for the "max on" test I felt like the engine was periodically misfiring - e.g., I could feel a periodic tremor in the car.
Electrical_Load_Testing.jpg


I undertook a more specific test where I switched on/off the cabin fan/blower every 20 seconds to check the impact it had and the data plots are shown below. The MAP reading is significantly affected (60% increase) and I assume that this is not expected. Interestingly the RPM was very solid on the dashboard but can be seen to move in the data stream. Also note in the plot that the throttle position sensor is slightly off (0.8%) for half the test. Again note that this is not as severe as when I first noticed but this does not look right to me.
Electrical_Load_Testing_Fan.jpg



Summary:
So where am I now. Well I suspect:
  • Vacuum Leak - None or at least not a major one. Blocking the Throttle Body killed the engine pretty quickly. Might have a leak through the brake booster line but not one that is affecting idle when the brake is not in use. Good idle can be achieved and sustained some of the time so if it is a vacuum leak it is not consistent - possible intermittent leak but this feels less convincing
  • Sensors - Seem fine. I have changed the major ones for high idle: the throttle body replacement had integrated idle control valve and throttle position sensor and I replaced the MAP sensor. Have not found any smoking gun in terms of bad data on the live data reader
  • Electrical Harnessing and Supply Voltages - this feels like the key issue. I suspect I have an electrical issue somewhere (not sure about supply, maybe ground). The persisting error code (P1020) relates to a detected voltage mismatch issue. The tests with electrical load showed that turning on/off the lights could restore idle to correct level! This aligns with my feeling that I was struggling to find consistencies in the issues I face.
What do you think? Is an electrical issue the key target now? If so what should I check next?


Side Note:
I really appreciate all the help and support that you have all provided. I apologise that I struggle to find the time in life to get to testing this and providing feedback to your questions. You have all been so responsive but I can only typically find the time (and light) to look at this at the weekend. Thanks.
 
I maintain my advise that you should replace the manifold gaskets. Mind you, they do wear and tear, and if you didn't do anything to them untill now, for a car built in 2009, they are in line for replacement.
 
Thanks for the update. Lots to consider
Ok, I obviously owe you all an update and I have made some progress and a discovery of a new symptom. However, I will lay out what I did in the order I did it, just in case there are useful bits in there somewhere that I do not understand the significance of.

1) Error Code Check:
The error code was back, this specific error code has been recurring. I have had it appear every now and then over the past 7 odd years. I saved the diagnostic report with freeze frames if that means anything to anyone.
View attachment 418962
That’s great.

Show the error turned up at low speed light throttle with perfect fuel trims
2) ECU Connector Clean:
Decided to remove the two ECU connectors and spray some contact cleaner on them. Then I reassembled them. They looked fine.
Great another Thing of the off the tick list.
3) Blocked the Exhaust:
I blocked the exhaust with the engine running and no pressure was built up. The silencer weld to the pipe running the length of the car is gone and it is leaking heavily. This is currently an advisory from an MOT 6 months ago. I check near the CAT whilst running and blocking and did not notice/hear a leak in that space (the one at the silencer was obvious).
Great would have to be a big leak to cause the problems you have. Sounds like another of the tick list
4) Check Battery Voltage:
On the OBDII reader the voltage read was varying a lot from 13.5 V to 14.2 V (during idling - with no additional accessories on, e.g., radio, cabin fan, etc.). Not sure how much I believe it. The battery is new (like two weeks old) - Bosch S4 Car Battery 202. I will throw a multimeter on it to check later.
This i don’t think is not correct. I would have to double check. But from memory it’s rock steady. I normally only graph the battery voltage while cranking to see what it drops to.
5) Look at Fuel and Coolant Data:
I had a look at Coolant and Fuel trim data but did not see anything with this that stood out to me. For the fuel system I could only find trim data.




View attachment 418963
Correct looks normal
Also had a drive where I checked coolant bc temperature as well. Looked ok. I was messing around at the start, then idled until ~1000 and drove between 1000 and 2200ish and then idled again until the end.

View attachment 418964

6) Check for Vacuum Leaks:
I carefully blocked the smaller inlet on the throttle body that goes to the idle control valve. The engine struggled, but stayed alive with the engine idle holding at ~500 RPM. The graph shows the two time I blocked it. This made me think that a vacuum leak might be present.
View attachment 418965
However, I then blocked both throttle body inlets (to the butterfly valve and the idle control valve) and the engine died very quickly (see plot below). Though the butterfly valve appeared well seated there was clearly a leak flow around it. Pretty sure this should not affect idle though as it is all before the MAP. I then blocked the butterfly valve inlet, leaving only the idle control valve inlet open and it made no difference. Just a double check that it was not affecting idle.
View attachment 418966
this is how I expected it to behave. If there was an air leak there is enough movement in the idle control valve to lower the REVS to 500rpm it’s just reviving or able to close
7) Revert to old Throttle Body:
In this I wanted to see what would happen if I put the old Throttle Body back on. Why? In changing the throttle body originally it did not make a difference, then I changed other things (like lambda and map sensors) so I switched it back just to see. What happened? Perfect warm engine idle, holding a solid 800ish RPM.
At last some progress
New Throttle Body – Directly Before Swap:
View attachment 418968

Old Throttle Body – Directly After Swap:
Note this is holding a steady 800ish RPM as expected!
View attachment 418969
Great looks normal
Old Throttle Body – Directly After Swap (repeat of the previous one - to check was it a fluke):
Note this is holding a steady 800ish RPM as expected as before. However, this time there is a little spike in the intake manifold pressure between ~120-160 and again between ~310-340. These both coincide with where the engine radiator fan has kicked in. The car felt great after this but again it did not hold and high idle emerged again.
View attachment 418970

8) Major Discovery - Idle Affected by Electrical Load:
Shortly after my perfect new idle (from point 7 above) I drove to pick up one of my kids. I parked up and switched off the main lights - and the engine reved!
I had not seen/noticed this behaviour before and it was repeatable. I found that switching on/off the main beams while idling was shifting the idle RPM by 300-400ish RPM (i.e., when I switched the lights the RPM dropped from 1200 to 800 and when I switched them again the went back from 800 to 1200). I could not capture the data from this (as I did not have my computer with me).
By the time I got home it was not as bad as this but I looked carefully at the RPM and Intake Manifold Pressure as I switched the electrical load in the car (e.g., turning on/off the main lights and the cabin blower).
The plots below are for a cold engine started and warming up. It was idling all the time and I basically tested: turning on main beam lights, turning on the cabin fan/blower, turned on both lights and fan, turned on everything I could (labelled "max on" with lights, fan, rear demister, radio, emergency indicators all on), and then messed around with turning things on and off. In between each of these I had a period of nothing on to re-establish a baseline before the next test. Note: for the "max on" test I felt like the engine was periodically misfiring - e.g., I could feel a periodic tremor in the car.
View attachment 418971

Fairly normal engine starts at 1200rpm and quickly drops to 800rpm

If you put absolutely everything on it is more than the alternator can cope with. Not sure if this data is in fact showing anything useful ?
I undertook a more specific test where I switched on/off the cabin fan/blower every 20 seconds to check the impact it had and the data plots are shown below. The MAP reading is significantly affected (60% increase) and I assume that this is not expected. Interestingly the RPM was very solid on the dashboard but can be seen to move in the data stream. Also note in the plot that the throttle position sensor is slightly off (0.8%) for half the test. Again note that this is not as severe as when I first noticed but this does not look right to me.
View attachment 418972

Engine coolant looks way off to me
Summary:
So where am I now. Well I suspect:
  • Vacuum Leak - None or at least not a major one. Blocking the Throttle Body killed the engine pretty quickly. Might have a leak through the brake booster line but not one that is affecting idle when the brake is not in use. Good idle can be achieved and sustained some of the time so if it is a vacuum leak it is not consistent - possible intermittent leak but this feels less convincing
  • Sensors - Seem fine. I have changed the major ones for high idle: the throttle body replacement had integrated idle control valve and throttle position sensor and I replaced the MAP sensor. Have not found any smoking gun in terms of bad data on the live data reader
  • Electrical Harnessing and Supply Voltages - this feels like the key issue. I suspect I have an electrical issue somewhere (not sure about supply, maybe ground). The persisting error code (P1020) relates to a detected voltage mismatch issue. The tests with electrical load showed that turning on/off the lights could restore idle to correct level! This aligns with my feeling that I was struggling to find consistencies in the issues I face.
What do you think? Is an electrical issue the key target now? If so what should I check next?


Side Note:
I really appreciate all the help and support that you have all provided. I apologise that I struggle to find the time in life to get to testing this and providing feedback to your questions. You have all been so responsive but I can only typically find the time (and light) to look at this at the weekend. Thanks.
Most of the sensor run from a 5 volt reference

It would be handy to know if this was remaining stable
 
There should be three wires on the connector to the throttle postion sensor.
It is worth carefully inspecting around the connectors first before trying anything else as it's more common to have problems at the connectors than elsewhere (though not impossible).

Ground, should be an easy check.

Then the sensor circuit.
This comprises of two wires, a feed wire that should read 5v at the TB.

The potentiometer then alters this 5v feed and sends the signal back on to the ECU on another wire.
Opening and closing the throttle with the igntion on should alter this return voltage. (be careful not to confuse this with the feed as methinks 5v is closed and then steadily reducing in voltage as the throttle opens).
You could do with checking this signal and both the TB and the ECU connector. (some investigative work needed to find it at the ECU)

The trouble with just checking the voltage or resistance of a signal like this is you might miss flat spots caused by an intermittent break in the circuit.
You might get what's expected ay closed or open throttle but between them there might be an issue at the potentiometer or the wiring has a intermittent break in it brought on by engine vibration or movement.

To get around this there are a couple of solutions.
First would be to scope the signal. There might be a way in your diagnostic software (parameter ID's) to trace the signal as a graph where you look for small voltage drop outs in the signal over a closed to full to closed again test.

Another way would be perhaps start bypassing the three wires in the loom one at a time, see if it makes a difference.
So start with the ground, use a probe in the back of the connector of the ground on the connector and ground the other end.
Then find the 5v feed at the ECU connector and bridge that to the thottle body connector.
Then the same with the return feed wire between ECU and throttle body.
 
Have you cleaned and checked the earth points on the battery, ECU and around the engine bay?
 

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There should be three wires on the connector to the throttle postion sensor.
It is worth carefully inspecting around the connectors first before trying anything else as it's more common to have problems at the connectors than elsewhere (though not impossible).

Ground, should be an easy check.

Then the sensor circuit.
This comprises of two wires, a feed wire that should read 5v at the TB.

The potentiometer then alters this 5v feed and sends the signal back on to the ECU on another wire.
Opening and closing the throttle with the igntion on should alter this return voltage. (be careful not to confuse this with the feed as methinks 5v is closed and then steadily reducing in voltage as the throttle opens).
You could do with checking this signal and both the TB and the ECU connector. (some investigative work needed to find it at the ECU)

The trouble with just checking the voltage or resistance of a signal like this is you might miss flat spots caused by an intermittent break in the circuit.
You might get what's expected ay closed or open throttle but between them there might be an issue at the potentiometer or the wiring has a intermittent break in it brought on by engine vibration or movement.

To get around this there are a couple of solutions.
First would be to scope the signal. There might be a way in your diagnostic software (parameter ID's) to trace the signal as a graph where you look for small voltage drop outs in the signal over a closed to full to closed again test.

Another way would be perhaps start bypassing the three wires in the loom one at a time, see if it makes a difference.
So start with the ground, use a probe in the back of the connector of the ground on the connector and ground the other end.
Then find the 5v feed at the ECU connector and bridge that to the thottle body connector.
Then the same with the return feed wire between ECU and throttle body.
I thought we had a good signal from the ECU to throttle position sensor

B351F989-5C6F-496B-A210-09DE9AEAB9A4.jpeg



The wiring for all the cars at basically the same

I would be looking at the A/C compressor and cooling fan for this if genuine which are driven off the same body computer pins.

FC329831-9D8E-4FFC-872F-07A9FCBB15CF.png



Although except to disconnect them to eliminate them I would prefer to concentrate on the 400 rpm shift between lights on and off
 
I did also try the blower and rear screen

Voltage and revs remain constant

Not sure what this is telling us

There appears to be a strange correlation between revs and temperature. Far to quick to be a mechanical effect. Could be a red herring though

04508257-8938-4E0D-9B5C-489DE6DEEAF5.png



Did you carry out the IDLE ACTUATOR relearn when swapping throttle bodies ?
 
Last edited:
I undertook a more specific test where I switched on/off the cabin fan/blower every 20 seconds to check the impact it had and the data plots are shown below. The MAP reading is significantly affected (60% increase) and I assume that this is not expected. Interestingly the RPM was very solid on the dashboard but can be seen to move in the data stream. Also note in the plot that the throttle position sensor is slightly off (0.8%) for half the test. Again note that this is not as severe as when I first noticed but this does not look right to me.
View attachment 418972
The rpm and manifold pressure are altering due to the cabin fan being switched on.
The electrical load has increased on the alternator so it's effected the rpm which has knocked on to the manifold pressure.

The temp has started dropping as the fan is bleeding off more coolant heat through the heater matix when the fan is turned on.

As you say, what is odd is the throttle positon sensor altering (I presume there was no input from you).
 
Ahhh

Looking at the graph of the coolant temperature again it not following the blower properly because there’s only 11 data points over a 5 1/2 minute period
 
I thought we had a good signal from the ECU to throttle position sensor
View attachment 419006

Scan tools and multimeters don't usually refresh fast enough to catch a glitch on the TPS.

You need to scope them with an oscilloscope to get a trace like these.
ezgif-4-2328805b4b.jpg


If you did get something similar to the right trace, it could be the potentiometer or if you scoped from the ECU connectors, it could be wiring.
 
Let’s try again

@DTanner

At one point is switching the lights on and off

The revs are changing from 1200 rpm

to 800 rpm

They are not touching the accelerator and the revs are altering by 400 rpm constantly

I be checking alternator output
Sensor grounds and powers

Also the 5 volt reference lines

Along with the wiring to the compressor and fan
 
Ok so sorry for the delayed responses but here is another update. The car has been particularly bad lately so had a good chance this weekend to try out some things. Some steps I took are listed here. Note that I show bits of data but have recorded a lot more items at the same time, please let me know if others may be useful. For the graphs the axes are colour coded to the parameter they are showing. If multiple parameters use the same axis then the axis numbers will be black. So here is what I have been up to:

1) Swapped Back to the New Throttle Body – to have a good baseline:
In doing this I checked and cleaned connectors and tried to find any issues with the harnessing but nothing stood out.
I don't know the process well but did the following steps without ever touching the throttle:
2 minutes: Ignition On
2 minutes: Ignition Off
20 minutes: Engine Idling and Heard Cooling fan start
2 minutes: Ignition Off
2 minutes: Ignition On
2 minutes: Ignition Off
This was based on: https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/throttle-acts-up.269804/post-2759081

2) Datalogging Drive – Test 1:
From a warm engine I went through the following process and recorded all of the data using the Torque Pro app. This test is shown in the three figures below that are labelled as Test 1
  • I turned the Ignition On (to engage battery but engine is off) and sat for 5ish minutes without touching the throttle
  • I started the engine and idled for 10 minutes without touching the throttle
  • I drove for 15ish minutes
  • I stopped with the engine idling for 10 minutes without touching the throttle
  • I stopped the engine and went to Ignition On and sat for 10ish minutes without touching the throttle
Test 1 Comments: at a number of points the TPS read an infinite value (or 3.4e+38 - labelled as red dots – these were spike of a couple of data points each). At some points the TPS read 0% (labelled as a green dot) but for a lot of the time the throttle was not fully at 0% even when not being touched (see Engine Idling).
1682179028251.png

1682178893488.png


1682178911932.png


3) Datalogging Engine Hunting – Test 2:
From a warm engine I found that sometimes when I started the engine it went into a hunting mode. Again I recorded all of the data using the Torque Pro app. This test is shown in one figure below that is labelled as Test 2
In this test I started the engine and idled for 4ish minutes without touching the throttle - the RPM is oscillating along with the OBD Adapter Voltage

Test 2 Comments: I am not really sure how useful the OBD Adaptor Voltage is but it was oscillating between 13.0V and 14.5V.
1682179383953.png


4) Datalogging Engine Hunting whilst turning the lights and cabin fan on – Test 3:
I repeated Test 2 but this time turned on the Lights and Cabin Fan at the same time as the engine was hunting. The engine settled to a reasonable Idle RPM but revered to Hunting when the Lights and Fan were turned off again. Again I recorded all of the data using the Torque Pro app. This test is shown in one figure below that is labelled as Test 3

Test 3 Comments:
I found it interesting to see the hunting stop and then return as the lights and fan where switch on/off, but don't really know what to do with this information.
1682179585255.png


5) Using a Multimeter to Probe the TPS:
I measured the voltage drop across the three pins on the TPS and found the following:

V_GROUNDV_SUPPLYV_SIGNALCOMMENTS
Pin Name
V_Ground
V_Supply
V_Signal
I used the Voltage Measurement to figure out what the pins are for
Pin Number
1
2
3
These are labelled on the connector
Harness Check Car in Ignition On (Engine off)
0.0V
4.94V
1.74V
Measured at end of disconnected harness, i.e., not connected to sensor
Backprobe Connector Check
Car in Ignition On (Engine off)
0.0V
4.96V
0.55V
Backprobe measurement of connected harness, i.e., connected to TPS
Manual Range Check
Car in Ignition On (Engine off)
-
-
Min 0.55V
Max 4.35V
Manual movement of throttle through full range with connected harness. This appeared to be absolutely smooth, i.e., voltage increased/decreased as expected
Backprobe Connector Check
Engine On (Idling)
0.01
4.98V
0.59V
Backprobe measurement of connected harness with engine idling

The reading were stable and repeatable.
TPS_Backprobe_Engine-Idling.jpg

In addition I checked the battery as well (despite it being new) and it seemed fine:
MeasurementVoltage Reading
Engine Off12.58V
Ignition On (Engine not Started)12.31V
Engine Started (minimum value)9-10V
Engine Started Idle (stable value)13.94V

6) Using Jump Leads to Form a New Ground Path:
I wanted to check if there may be a ground issue between the engine and the car body so used some jump leads. I connected one end to the battery negative terminal and the other to various parts of the engine, ecu body, ground terminals, etc. I made an effort to get good bite from the lead clips but not sure how effective it was, i.e., I forced/scrapped them in a bit.
Ground_Loop1.jpg

Ground_Loop2.jpg

Ground_Loop3.jpg

7) Video of Engine Hunting:
I recorded a video of the engine hunting (similar to Test 2 and Test 3 above). I checked the backprobe values for the TPS and they were rock solid and same as in the table above. The sound is interesting as it is a wheeze as air is drawn into the engine from the Idle Control Valve. Not sure if this is interesting but makes me inclined to try and backprobe the Idle Control Valve.


8) Datalogging for Engine Revving Unusually:
Ok so I also recorded some data as shown below. This was a warm engine that I started. The orange line shows the RPM increases as expected on starting to around 1,200 and then dropping back to around 800, also as expected for a warm engine. I then feathered the throttle twice and the second time the engine jumped to a higher idle. Note: the throttle position sensor shows the two spikes where I touched the throttle, indicated by the hatched black lines (at no other times was the throttle touched). I captured this as I was repeatedly able to do this many times in a row.
1682188787465.png



SUMMARY
My instincts are for an electrical issue but I am still looking. The TPS does show some offset from time-to-time (on OBD reading not measured by backprobe yet) but not enough to be a cause for my bad idle (I guess). I think I need to backprobe the four pin Idle Control Valve connector next.
The symptoms I see vary a lot and are not always that reproducible but I feel that the electrical system connects them all, e.g., the judder, the TPS spikes, the high idle, the influence of turning on the lights/fan, the engine continuing to racing after I have feathered and released the throttle.

Some general thoughts and comments:
  1. What do the spikes in the TPS measurements tell us? I only get these (as far as I know) when I am driving the car - not at idle. This complicates the investigation and I think it is the "Judder" from the title of this thread.
  2. Does the video show anything telling? Is the wheezing normal for an engine that is hunting? Is it a cause of hunting or does hunting cause it?
  3. Should I look at backprobing the Idle Control Valve - if so what are the four pins? I know that two pins are around 12V and two are around 0V, if that is helpful.
  4. Is the use of the jump leads sufficient to discount bad ground paths? If not what else should I do?
  5. I don't know how to measure/check the main voltage rails (apart from probing the senor supplies (5V for the TPS and 12V for the ICV). Any other checks I should do with this?
  6. I will try and measure resistance in the ground paths to see if there is any notable resistance fluctuations.
  7. How can I check/discount the alternator from the process? What should I electrically measure?
  8. Any other suggestions?
 
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