Bravo An Absolute Dualogic E.TorQ 1.8 16V Flex from Brazil!

[KHALED25]

Or maybe this is the new bravo after all??
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/fiat/500/84950/exclusive-image-five-door-fiat-500

 

[Barcellos]

Well, as I could see, Fiat Ottimo isn't very well known here.

Fiat lauched it about a month ago in China (where else could it be?).

We don't know much about Ottimo because Fiat just showed it but didn't revealed some deatails such as it's dimensions.

What we now is that it uses Fiat's C-EVO platform, but WDK id it's the regular (used by Giulietta) or the LWB one (used by Dart/Viaggio).

What point that's clear is that it's clearly a Dart/Viaggio hatch, what means it's a "Fiat Giulietta" (as we have now Type 198 Lancia Delta and Fiat Bravo), but much simpler! The rear suspension is powered by a solid axle such as current Bravo and the interior, despite being a copy of Dart's one, is much simpler as well, using worse materials... I think Chinese folks just don't care about it.

It uses just old T-JET units, 120 HP and 150 HP versions and it's offered with both C510 5-speed manual and C635 TCT 6-speed as well.

It's such a great car but needs some "repairs" to be sold as a new Bravo in Europe and here in South America... Let's go:

As Fiat Viaggio is a Dodge Dart but uses solid axle instead of Multilink on rear suspension, think it's not a problem to Fiat to "put" it on a future European an (South) American Bravo's sucessor.

The engines are not a problem to and it could use both T-JET Multiair 140 BHP and 165 BHP (replacing 120 HP and 150 HP sold on Bravo's release). Brazilian cars that belong to Bravo's class can't be sold with diesel-powered engines, but Europe could use both 1.6 16V M-JET 105 BHP and 120 BHP units as well as 1.9 16 M-JET Twin Turbo 190 BHP replacing 2.0 16V M-JET 165 BHP. Maybe they could do a Abarth version with that 1750 TBi 200 HP engine, leaving the 235 HP for Giulietta Quadrifoglio Verde fight with GTi.

As Dart's finishing is lots better that Ottimo's but shares the same design, it's another point that represents no problem for Fiat to upgrade it to Euro Spec and Brazilian Spec versions.

Other thing that i didn't like is that 90's-fashioned thing used by the driver to turn on the Headlights... :bang: :yuck:

IMO the most severe fail is the sunroof. Instead of Stilo's Skywindow, Punto's/Idea's/Bravo's Skydome or Cinquecento's Skywind, there's a traditional one, a little bigger to be fair, but it still regular! IDK if they could power Ottimo with a panoramic Skydome or at least with Skywind (that's similar to Mk7 Golf's one), but it'd be the "Cake's Cherry", the missing part!

[
IMG]http://carplace.virgula.uol.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/novo-fiat-ottimo-2014-10.jpg[/IMG]

Now look at Dart's finishing... Great isn't it? You see that they share the same design, but look at Dart's cluster and the leather-trimmed dashboard... Amazingly beautiful!

So, if Ottimo comes as Bravo plus Multilink rear suspension, that aforementioned powertrain and Dart's dashborad/finishing/cluster... Sales king!!

 

[Barcellos]

By that I meant the TCT gearbox, not the manual one. sorry to confuse you.
You see the problem is that fiat's been terribly stagnant for a while now in this part of the world (Europe-North Africa), and its not releasing any new models. Also, having the same engine and transmission line up across the fiat and alfa brands would probably be a good idea (just ask VW). All in all, there's just no reason why there has been nothing new coming out of the brand lately. I've been checking the Fiat UK website or almost 4 years now and everytime its the same cars.

I think so... Fiat here always lauch new cars but all of them below Punto's class, wich ones don't arouse my interest!!

VW is coming up with their MQB platform + EA211 (1.0 3-cylinder, 1.4 TSI and 2.0 TSI) and EA827 diesels and Fiat could be doing the same with the flexible C-EVO Platorm + TwinAir, T-JET Multiair, 1750 and MultiJet.

To be honest I'd rather own a Italian purebred than a German one... If Fiat wants profit instead of current injury, if Fiat Group wants to be on the world's Top Five (or even go further), they have to WAKE UP NOW!!

 

[Barcellos]

Or maybe this is the new bravo after all??
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/fiat/500/84950/exclusive-image-five-door-fiat-500

PLEASE NOOOO!!! I love the cute (not gay ) Cinquecento that I use to call "Cinque", but this rabbit-like reprodution is psissing me off!!!!

 

[Rigby]

Wow, so that's a cool engine! In a cool trim! Congratulations! Is it fitted to the C635 6-speed gearbox?

I use to say that's there's no bad colour for Bravo, it's a unique design that's fits well in every dress!

Not entirely sure on what gearbox it is but it's not the one found in the 1.4 Tjets and 1.9 Mjets. It is 6 speed but not sure on its name, did see F40 mentioned somewhere though.

 

[Barcellos]

Not entirely sure on what gearbox it is but it's not the one found in the 1.4 Tjets and 1.9 Mjets. It is 6 speed but not sure on its name, did see F40 mentioned somewhere though.

Ahh I see, so problably it's the C530 gearbox!

 

[KHALED25]

Well, as I could see, Fiat Ottimo isn't very well known here.

Fiat lauched it about a month ago in China (where else could it be?).

We don't know much about Ottimo because Fiat just showed it but didn't revealed some deatails such as it's dimensions.

What we now is that it uses Fiat's C-EVO platform, but WDK id it's the regular (used by Giulietta) or the LWB one (used by Dart/Viaggio).

What point that's clear is that it's clearly a Dart/Viaggio hatch, what means it's a "Fiat Giulietta" (as we have now Type 198 Lancia Delta and Fiat Bravo), but much simpler! The rear suspension is powered by a solid axle such as current Bravo and the interior, despite being a copy of Dart's one, is much simpler as well, using worse materials... I think Chinese folks just don't care about it.

It uses just old T-JET units, 120 HP and 150 HP versions and it's offered with both C510 5-speed manual and C635 TCT 6-speed as well.

It's such a great car but needs some "repairs" to be sold as a new Bravo in Europe and here in South America... Let's go:

As Fiat Viaggio is a Dodge Dart but uses solid axle instead of Multilink on rear suspension, think it's not a problem to Fiat to "put" it on a future European an (South) American Bravo's sucessor.

The engines are not a problem to and it could use both T-JET Multiair 140 BHP and 165 BHP (replacing 120 HP and 150 HP sold on Bravo's release). Brazilian cars that belong to Bravo's class can't be sold with diesel-powered engines, but Europe could use both 1.6 16V M-JET 105 BHP and 120 BHP units as well as 1.9 16 M-JET Twin Turbo 190 BHP replacing 2.0 16V M-JET 165 BHP. Maybe they could do a Abarth version with that 1750 TBi 200 HP engine, leaving the 235 HP for Giulietta Quadrifoglio Verde fight with GTi.

As Dart's finishing is lots better that Ottimo's but shares the same design, it's another point that represents no problem for Fiat to upgrade it to Euro Spec and Brazilian Spec versions.

Other thing that i didn't like is that 90's-fashioned thing used by the driver to turn on the Headlights... :bang: :yuck:

IMO the most severe fail is the sunroof. Instead of Stilo's Skywindow, Punto's/Idea's/Bravo's Skydome or Cinquecento's Skywind, there's a traditional one, a little bigger to be fair, but it still regular! IDK if they could power Ottimo with a panoramic Skydome or at least with Skywind (that's similar to Mk7 Golf's one), but it'd be the "Cake's Cherry", the missing part!

So, if Ottimo comes as Bravo plus Multilink rear suspension, that aforementioned powertrain and Dart's dashborad/finishing/cluster... Sales king!!

I agree with you that the ottimo is more like a poor man's dart. The dart probably wont come to europe because its 100% the giulietta minus the poor italian quality (sorry). They even use the same Uconnect infotainment system! Its also made in the US. The ottimo is also made in china so that also complicates its introduction to Europe. However, if they do use a rear independent suspension and upgrade the engines to include the multi-air versions it would be.....the Giulietta. Now i doubt that they would eat into the giulietta's market like that, but then again this is exactly what VW does and its working them wonders (apart from the odd worldwide recall LOL).

About the link about the bravo replacement, dont be surprised if it turns out correct since all Fiat has done recently was introduce ugly variants of the beautiful 500, and i remember reading somewhere that this could be the direction they're heading with the bravo. There's no still no clue on how they'll replace the Punto either.

The problem is that Fiat is a huge company thats acting like a small one. You just cant guess what they're up to. Have you tried checking Fiat power-train's website? For being the biggest company in the whole of italy, i dont think it should look like websites from the days of dial-up connection. Neither does the fiat.com website offer anything useful. None of this helps the company's image in anyway

 

[Barcellos]

I agree with you that the ottimo is more like a poor man's dart. The dart probably wont come to europe because its 100% the giulietta minus the poor italian quality (sorry). They even use the same Uconnect infotainment system! Its also made in the US. The ottimo is also made in china so that also complicates its introduction to Europe. However, if they do use a rear independent suspension and upgrade the engines to include the multi-air versions it would be.....the Giulietta. Now i doubt that they would eat into the giulietta's market like that, but then again this is exactly what VW does and its working them wonders (apart from the odd worldwide recall LOL).

About the link about the bravo replacement, dont be surprised if it turns out correct since all Fiat has done recently was introduce ugly variants of the beautiful 500, and i remember reading somewhere that this could be the direction they're heading with the bravo. There's no still no clue on how they'll replace the Punto either.

The problem is that Fiat is a huge company thats acting like a small one. You just cant guess what they're up to. Have you tried checking Fiat power-train's website? For being the biggest company in the whole of italy, i dont think it should look like websites from the days of dial-up connection. Neither does the fiat.com website offer anything useful. None of this helps the company's image in anyway

Poor italian quality? IDT italian cars are known for their "bad quality", seriously! Of course Dart is not going to Europe - it's gonna be the new Alfa Romeo Giulia, predicted to debut late-2014 or early-2015.

Yes, rebadging is what VW is doing, and this is both good and bad. It's good because they achieve great sales volume and profit spending without spending too much. And it's bad because they apparently don't take much care about the general cars' quality, and the result is recalls and more recalls. Other bad point is that every single car is equal. Notice VW Golf = Audi A3 = SEAT León = Škoda Octavia, VW Touareg = Porsche Cayenne = Audi Q7.

But look, Fiat did exactly that on the 90's and worked very well. Notice Alfa Romeo 155, Lancia Dedra and Fiat Tempra; Fiat Marea (SWB), Lancia Lybra (LWB) and Alfa Romeo 156 (LWB).

Can you spot the difference? Fiat Group used to build well and give personality to their "twins", heavily changing the desing, revising the car's dynamics focusing on each brand fame...

As Fiat builds Bravo and Delta and they take such different directions, why couldn't they do it with Giulietta and Ottimo, Dart and Viaggio (the last one would come to cover the space left by Marea more than ten years ago)? Of course not building them on China, but in Italy (and Brazil in my case)!

Again, I love Cinquecento and some of it's derivates (500L could kill Idea here, 500L Living could kill Palio Weekend and 500L Trekking + future 500X could kill both Idea Adventure and Palio Weekend Adventure), but Bravo is Bravo!! A small family car is a small family car and not a supermini derivate!

So you understand me! Fiat's a giant that is thinking as a dwarf! Renewal of the board now!

 

[KHALED25]

Poor italian quality?

Dont get me wrong. I absolutely love the bravo, and would jump to the chance of buying a giulietta if it was sold around here. I even test drove the dart just to get a taste of what it would drive like LOL. Replicating the giulietta in a different design by fiat would also have me sold if its as attractive as the bravo

. However, the bravo has got a really harsh ride which affects comfort and makes it feel like everything's going to fall apart when driving on poor roads. You'll find countless rants around the forum about the harsh ride, even with the standard suspension setup like in mine. I dont think that its impossible to provide good comfort and good stability, there's only around a million other manufacturers who've done it.

Moving over to the giulietta, you would think that being around 4 years newer than the bravo it would fare better, but I've seen much more people complain of rattles in the alfa forum than even on the bravo, which is not a good sign if you ask me. However, I did find out that they fixed many minor flaws when they renewed the giulietta in late 2013.

A small family car is a small family car and not a supermini derivate!

tell that to MINI haha

So you understand me! Fiat's a giant that is thinking as a dwarf! Renewal of the board now!

Yes, they need to step up their game. I was actually impressed by their efforts in Brazil though, I know some of the smaller models sold here are imported from Brazil and not italy.

 

[Barcellos]

Dont get me wrong. I absolutely love the bravo, and would jump to the chance of buying a giulietta if it was sold around here. I even test drove the dart just to get a taste of what it would drive like LOL. Replicating the giulietta in a different design by fiat would also have me sold if its as attractive as the bravo . However, the bravo has got a really harsh ride which affects comfort and makes it feel like everything's going to fall apart when driving on poor roads. You'll find countless rants around the forum about the harsh ride, even with the standard suspension setup like in mine. I dont think that its impossible to provide good comfort and good stability, there's only around a million other manufacturers who've done it.

Moving over to the giulietta, you would think that being around 4 years newer than the bravo it would fare better, but I've seen much more people complain of rattles in the alfa forum than even on the bravo, which is not a good sign if you ask me. However, I did find out that they fixed many minor flaws when they renewed the giulietta in late 2013.

Man, IMO a stiff suspension is a advantage, even if it means a harsh ride.

Otherway it's not a constant when the subject is the Brazilian-built Bravo. Brazilian Fiat's suspension Engineers are knonw to be the best all over Fiat Group. Notice that when they were tuning Freemont's suspension to Brazil, back in 2011 and Dodge's suspensions Engineers checked it liked it so much that adopted it in American Journey despite their own setup (IDK if Euro spec Freemont uses this same setup).

Point is that Brazilian streets are so bad that we have to have our own suspension setup here and them Fiats are knonw here by their pronunced rolling (except in sporty versions).

As my Bravo is fitted with Sport's suspension it's ride is stiff, but not umconfortable IMO. Maybe (and even probably) my standarts are lower than yours, but I really like it's suspension.

Using 215/45 R17 P7 Pirellis my Bravo rarely makes noise with them, even on high-speed corners. Is that your case too?

If Giulietta is even more uncomfortable, and whereas it uses Multilink rear suspension and a totally revised and Alfa-tuned chassis, it have to be more stable! SO I NEED TO DRIVE THIS CAR!!

About Giulietta's MY-2014 fixes, which are them?

tell that to MINI haha

Yes!! But MINI is almost a one-car brand, so they have to do the same cars do different things!

Yes, they need to step up their game. I was actually impressed by their efforts in Brazil though, I know some of the smaller models sold here are imported from Brazil and not italy.

Fiat is the best seller here in Brazil since 2002. Just for you to know, last year (2012) 838,218 vehicles were sold, thanks to cars such as Uno Mille, Novo Uno, Palio Fire Economy and Novo Palio (same function as Classic Panda, Panda and Grande Punto in Europe).

They have to wake up on the mid-size class!!

 

[KHALED25]

About the suspension part, i have the standard setup on r16/55 wheels. Admittedly i often drive on poor roads, but thats why i opted out of the higher model with 17 inch wheels and the sport suspension. Even then, the car is more harsh than any of its competitors (golf, astra, focus, civic, ibiza, etc), all of which i've driven or been in. The only exception is the megane, which is worse. Although the bravo's feedback is great despite the electric steering, you do feel every single irregularity in the road.

The easy way for a manufacturer to increase the vehicle's stability would be to just throw in some hard shock absorbers, and compromise the ride quality. The hard way would be to increase the chassis' rigidity so that the car naturally resists roll and pitch. I think fiat has done the former, even with the regular suspension.

About the Giulietta, the problem is with poor build quality and not ride comfort this time. If you check out any review of it or even the dart, they're always praising its ride comfort. Same with owners on the alfa forum, but the problem is with rattling sounds that develop after a few years, which simply implies poor build quality.

The changes with 2014 model of the giulietta were small but plenty. I dont have an exact list but i can give you a link to an extremely long thread in an alfa forum because many of these changes were not officialy announced. Most of them are inside the cabin though.
http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-giulietta/406673-giulietta-facelift-spy-shots.html

 

[Barcellos]

After a little while without coming here...

I was watching my Bravo's body colour so I realized that maybe it's Lancia's Bronzino Bronze, don't you think?