Angelabockus
Member
Hi, everyone
if I have narrowed it down correctly, is the red warning light under the tachometer for the alternator?
if I have narrowed it down correctly, is the red warning light under the tachometer for the alternator?
Technical Alternator warning light 1974 Fiat spider 124
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Technical Alternator warning light 1974 Fiat spider 124
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Angelabockus
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Thank you and I do all the work on my Fiat. It’s fun but I hit this roadblock and the alternator belt seems almost like concrete. I’m no mechanic at all and don’t want to sound completely clueless. I would imagine it would feel more pliable like rubber. Should I change that first ?
What exactly is the problem?
Is the red (alternator charging) light staying on?
Is the battery going flat (discharging)?
Fan belts can feel quite firm - just like tire sidewalls, they have reinforcing plies built-in to strengthen them. However the sloping rubber sides normally have some 'give' in them - depends how hard you can press with a fingernail. If the belt is not slipping on the pulleys (indicated by a squealing sound when the engine is revved up), then changing it won't extinguish the alternator light (if this is the problem you're having). Having said that, it's normal good maintenance practice to replace a fan belt if there's any doubt about it's condition e.g. any signs of cracking or bits of fabric covering on the outermost flat surface starting to fray. This is mainly to avoid the inconvenience of a failure/breakdown on the road, bear in mind that on the 124, the fan belt drives the alternator (needed to charge the battery) and the water pump (needed for proper engine cooling).
Do you have a workshop manual to guide you in whatever work you want to tackle, it can be very useful. Or can you post pics of anything you want to ask about (a picture can paint a thousand words), especially if you don't know the correct terminology.
Don't worry about sounding clueless, most of us on here are, but we're very good at guessing and we hardly ever lie.
Is the red (alternator charging) light staying on?
Is the battery going flat (discharging)?
Fan belts can feel quite firm - just like tire sidewalls, they have reinforcing plies built-in to strengthen them. However the sloping rubber sides normally have some 'give' in them - depends how hard you can press with a fingernail. If the belt is not slipping on the pulleys (indicated by a squealing sound when the engine is revved up), then changing it won't extinguish the alternator light (if this is the problem you're having). Having said that, it's normal good maintenance practice to replace a fan belt if there's any doubt about it's condition e.g. any signs of cracking or bits of fabric covering on the outermost flat surface starting to fray. This is mainly to avoid the inconvenience of a failure/breakdown on the road, bear in mind that on the 124, the fan belt drives the alternator (needed to charge the battery) and the water pump (needed for proper engine cooling).
Do you have a workshop manual to guide you in whatever work you want to tackle, it can be very useful. Or can you post pics of anything you want to ask about (a picture can paint a thousand words), especially if you don't know the correct terminology.
Don't worry about sounding clueless, most of us on here are, but we're very good at guessing and we hardly ever lie.
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Angelabockus
Member
Amazing, thank you!
It’s all making more sense now. And, yes, the battery is new and rapidly dies. Although, the headlights will come on, etc. The fluids are all full, the car will just not start.
I have the original repair manual that came with the car. I have all but memorized it to the point of bewilderment.
I’ve tried to jump the car to start and disconnecting the positive charge to indicate a bad alternator. The car simply will not start.
I definitely will check the fan belt and go from there.
Fantastic information!
Thank you so much. I will be back to follow up
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Angelabockus
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Angelabockus
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Baffled.
I will send pics in the morning.
alternator is good, battery is good.
There’s just something missing
Plus the weather hasn’t helped inspire me to get back on the problem.
Pretty sure there’s a belt missing
Idk
I will send pics in the morning.
alternator is good, battery is good.
There’s just something missing
Plus the weather hasn’t helped inspire me to get back on the problem.
Pretty sure there’s a belt missing
Idk
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Angelabockus
Member
These parts are confusing me.
Especially the one circled in red
Many thanks for any advice
Angelia
Attachments
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Angelabockus
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Baffled.
I will send pics in the morning.
alternator is good, battery is good.
There’s just something missing
Plus the weather hasn’t helped inspire me to get back on the problem.
Pretty sure there’s a belt missing
Attachments
The item circled in red is an electrically operated fan for the radiator and cooling system - it doesn't have anything to do with the engine not starting.
There is a missing belt, it drives the air injection pump (see pulley on the left in pic (IMG_2838.jpeg) - again nothing to do with the engine not starting.
There appears to be a significant misalignment of the alternator drive belt at the alternator - suggesting the wrong alternator or mounting bracket has been installed, also, someone seems to have been messing with the wiring connections on the rear of the alternator (possibly to fit an incorrect alternator?) - again unlikely to have anything to do with the engine not starting, unless this incorrect work is causing the battery to be drained/die?
Should you suspect that the alternator might be draining down the battery, (e.g. battery goes flat or lots of sparking when battery terminal is being disconnected), simply disconnect the wire/cable that is attached to rear of the alternator by a 10mm (wrench size) nut, you'll then need to insulate this disconnected wire using electrical tape or similar, don't let it contact any ground (metal/bodywork) as this wire is connected directly without any fuse to the battery main terminal. This should prevent the alternator (if faulty) from draining the battery. NOTE :- you don't need a working alternator or even a connected alternator to start an engine, just a good battery.
As regards the engine not starting, the usual 1st checks to carry out are :-
1) that you have a good spark at each spark plug.
2) that fuel is reaching the carburettor.
Only when it has been established that these 2 conditions are being met, should any further checks be made.
You don't state the history of this car, e.g. was it running recently or has it been off the road for some significant time? The answer to this question will influence which checks should then be carried out. Many problems imho are caused by people 'messing' with things in the past, so very helpful to know the history of the vehicle, e.g. what was done or why the vehicle was taken off the road.
Bear in mind that modern gasoline can 'go-off' in as little as a few months and can also cause other problems, so if the fuel is old, it's best to drain the tank,, flush/clean the fuel system and put fresh fuel in before proceeding any further.
I think you might have misunderstood my question about having a 'shop manual, - if you've memorized the original repair manual that came with the car, it's probably just a small Owner's Manual/Handbook, the manual I'm thinking of is several hundred pages long and is what professional Mechanics would use to trace faults etc., it usually includes a fault-finding tree for e.g. engine non-start issues. I don't know what level of knowledge you have, nor what tools/test equipment you might have access to, so I'm trying to keep it simple. (I was a Fiat dealership trained Mechanic back in the 1970's).
P.S. I would advise against buying any new parts (you don't e.g. need a new fan belt or spark plugs etc.) until you've identified the cause of the problem correctly.
There is a missing belt, it drives the air injection pump (see pulley on the left in pic (IMG_2838.jpeg) - again nothing to do with the engine not starting.
There appears to be a significant misalignment of the alternator drive belt at the alternator - suggesting the wrong alternator or mounting bracket has been installed, also, someone seems to have been messing with the wiring connections on the rear of the alternator (possibly to fit an incorrect alternator?) - again unlikely to have anything to do with the engine not starting, unless this incorrect work is causing the battery to be drained/die?
Should you suspect that the alternator might be draining down the battery, (e.g. battery goes flat or lots of sparking when battery terminal is being disconnected), simply disconnect the wire/cable that is attached to rear of the alternator by a 10mm (wrench size) nut, you'll then need to insulate this disconnected wire using electrical tape or similar, don't let it contact any ground (metal/bodywork) as this wire is connected directly without any fuse to the battery main terminal. This should prevent the alternator (if faulty) from draining the battery. NOTE :- you don't need a working alternator or even a connected alternator to start an engine, just a good battery.
As regards the engine not starting, the usual 1st checks to carry out are :-
1) that you have a good spark at each spark plug.
2) that fuel is reaching the carburettor.
Only when it has been established that these 2 conditions are being met, should any further checks be made.
You don't state the history of this car, e.g. was it running recently or has it been off the road for some significant time? The answer to this question will influence which checks should then be carried out. Many problems imho are caused by people 'messing' with things in the past, so very helpful to know the history of the vehicle, e.g. what was done or why the vehicle was taken off the road.
Bear in mind that modern gasoline can 'go-off' in as little as a few months and can also cause other problems, so if the fuel is old, it's best to drain the tank,, flush/clean the fuel system and put fresh fuel in before proceeding any further.
I think you might have misunderstood my question about having a 'shop manual, - if you've memorized the original repair manual that came with the car, it's probably just a small Owner's Manual/Handbook, the manual I'm thinking of is several hundred pages long and is what professional Mechanics would use to trace faults etc., it usually includes a fault-finding tree for e.g. engine non-start issues. I don't know what level of knowledge you have, nor what tools/test equipment you might have access to, so I'm trying to keep it simple. (I was a Fiat dealership trained Mechanic back in the 1970's).
P.S. I would advise against buying any new parts (you don't e.g. need a new fan belt or spark plugs etc.) until you've identified the cause of the problem correctly.
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Angelabockus
Member
Thank you so much!
And yes, the car has been Working properly I drive it 3 -10 miles every day just to make sure it stays in flow, so to speak.
And this problem started around December 20th.
I’ve taken the alternator and the battery to be checked and they’re both good.
And you are correct I have the small repair manual that came with the car. I do not have the one that has hundreds of pages..
Luckily, I’m only the third owner of this car so I can hopefully contact the original owner or second owner for any additional paperwork.
The belt missing is important, of course,
And I also can hear a clicking noise when I try to start the car. Beyond all of your extremely helpful tips which I totally appreciate., and I will absolutely check out, could it be the starter?
To reiterate, the missing belt is not important - it simply drives an air injection pump (part of the emissions reduction equipment/SMOG) so is not necessary for starting the engine.
Are you now finally (after 8 posts) revealing that the engine simply isn't turning over?
If so, it could indeed be a faulty starter.
It could also be a discharged battery (at this stage, not sure when you had the battery checked and judged to be good), loose/corroded battery leads, faulty or missing ground lead/braid between the engine and body (this is located under the car and goes from a bolt on the gearbox/transmission bellhousing to the body chassis rail), faulty solenoid on the starter motor or faulty ignition switch.
If you switch on the headlights and operate the starter, do the lights go out? If so, and the engine doesn't turn over (or turns very slowly) then re-check the battery state of charge and all it's connections. If the lights don't go out, try connecting a jumper lead/cable between any metal part on the engine and the battery ground terminal (this will provide a good ground return from the starter to the battery, and rules out the above mentioned engine to body ground lead). And then report back.
The starter motor on these cars is a little difficult (for a novice) to access/remove. I wouldn't, at this early stage in the diagnostic procedure, recommend e.g. buying a new starter motor (most are likely to be rebuilt (of questionable workmanship?) units or else modern 'hi-torque' replacement units (pricey and totally unnecessary). I believe in fixing what you have. Have you done any work on starter motors? Do you have and can you use a volt/ohm meter or multi-meter?
If the car was in regular use up to Dec. 20, there can't be much wrong. My money is on the battery or battery leads/connections - starter motors usually give some early warning sign they're about to fail.
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Angelabockus
Member
Sorry for the late reply and I appreciate all your information. Long story short it was the spark plugs !
Meanwhile, I need a few parts to tidy up everything.
* Webber air filter, it’s square, do not have the exact measurements. But the guy working on it said it’s the only square one available. He’s been a blessing. He actually owned this same car back in the day.
*Timing belt is loose so he said it’s best to get one . Twin cam ? Not sure if he was referring to the belt or the air filter
* and an oil cap. I have bought 4 over the past year and it’s just not the correct fit
I know there must be a website or even someone like you who knows someone with the correct link to what I need
Again, I truly appreciate your answers .
In a nutshell, I broke my hand, had the flu and was blessed to be sent to the ER last week by fire ants. Been fun so I’ve been a bit out of commission for the last month
Angelia
Sorry to hear of your recent misfortunes and hope you're on the mend.
I'm not in the U.S. so can only suggest the following parts suppliers that I've seen advertise parts for the 124 Spider :-
www.vickauto.com
autoricambi.us
I'm not in the U.S. so can only suggest the following parts suppliers that I've seen advertise parts for the 124 Spider :-
FIAT | Parts for classic Spiders, X1/9, and more! | Vick Autosports
FIAT 124 124 Sport Spider (1968-’78) 2000 Spider (1979-’82) 124 Sport Coupé 124 Sedan & Special 124 Special T (DOHC) 124 Familiare Wagon X1/9 FIAT X1/9 (1974-’82) Bertone X1/9 (1983-’88) 850 850 Spider 850 Coupe 850 Sedan & Special 128 & Yugo 128 Sedan & Special 128 Rally 128 Coupé & 3P 128...
www.vickauto.com
Auto Ricambi FIAT 124 Spider Parts - New and Classic FIAT Spider Parts
Auto Ricambi FIAT 124 Spider Parts - New and Classic FIAT Spider Parts. We also carry parts for the 2012-on FIAT 500
autoricambi.us
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Angelabockus
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Hello!Sorry to hear of your recent misfortunes and hope you're on the mend.
I'm not in the U.S. so can only suggest the following parts suppliers that I've seen advertise parts for the 124 Spider :-
FIAT | Parts for classic Spiders, X1/9, and more! | Vick Autosports
FIAT 124 124 Sport Spider (1968-’78) 2000 Spider (1979-’82) 124 Sport Coupé 124 Sedan & Special 124 Special T (DOHC) 124 Familiare Wagon X1/9 FIAT X1/9 (1974-’82) Bertone X1/9 (1983-’88) 850 850 Spider 850 Coupe 850 Sedan & Special 128 & Yugo 128 Sedan & Special 128 Rally 128 Coupé & 3P 128...Auto Ricambi FIAT 124 Spider Parts - New and Classic FIAT Spider Parts
Auto Ricambi FIAT 124 Spider Parts - New and Classic FIAT Spider Parts. We also carry parts for the 2012-on FIAT 500
Thank you for the kind words. I feel much better now.
And, Yes, indeed the spark plugs were bad!
A few faulty wires, also bought a new oil cap and timing belt. The alternator was perfectly fine. I believe it was the wiring which I cannot do so I found someone to do this.
And, thank you for the link to Auto Ricambi, actually ordered the timing belt, Weber air filter for the carburetor and the oil cap from them. Very helpful people. They’re in Dallas, Texas, so Shipped right away and the parts should be here tomorrow and my beautiful Fiat will be back on the road!
I can’t thank you enough for all of your amazing knowledge!
And I’m sure I’ll be back on here with more questions at some point hopefully later than sooner, lol
but little things happen to these cars which mine turns 50 years old this year.
Well, I guess everyone’s does if it’s a 1974
Haha!
Many thanks,
Angelia
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Angelabockus
Member
Happy to post all parts needed and not locally available were ordered through Auto Ricambi ! Bad news is , garage lost keys to ignition and trunk. Luckily I had the 50 year old spare ignition key, but no trunk key. Need that badly, battery is in the trunk and no other access. Is there a key code in the repair manual? One thing leads to another, ugh
Any advice on where to start greatly appreciated
Angelia
Any advice on where to start greatly appreciated
Angelia
The garage is responsible for getting you access to the trunk and replacing the lock. Do not let them off the hook. Keep the pressure on.
Hopefully is you keep the pressure on they will search much harder for the keys. e.g. Did the mechanic put the keys a work bench and they have been covered up with something else? In his/her tool chest drawer covered up? In his/her boiler suit/jacket that has gone to the cleaners?
Ultimately they are I believe legally responsible including repairing any damage done during forced access.
I've never owned a 124 so have no knowledge of the lock mechanism / layout. Also is the a panel behind the seats that will allow access into the trunk area?
Note! A decent locksmith should be able to pick the lock, then remove the lock/tumbler, disassemble and then cut a new set of keys. The garage should pay for all of this. Will be cheaper than forced access and resulting damage.
Best of luck.
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Angelabockus
Member
Thank you!
There is access to the trunk from the backseat, but we have only figured out that the bottom seat comes out without further looking, but we shall.
The garage is taking 100% responsibility and they will absolutely make everything right. I was wondering if I could look up the key code by the Vin number, not sure.
I’ll probably call Auto Ricambi. They are very knowledgeable and helpful..
If I can get any more useful information that others can use, I shall definitely post that too!!
Thank you for always replying, appreciate you!
All good to hear.
I doubt Fiat's VIN and key number records go that far back in time. You could try contacting Fiat Customer Support in the US or Italy. That may result in a key number but number will be possibly unique to Fiat and possibly doubtful they would be able to supply a replacement.
What ever you do get another ignition key cut and tested ASP to avoid major issues if your last key breaks or is lost!