Technical Agonising Starter Motor

[CamperVanBeethoven]

I think I've tried everything: brand new starter, brand new 100A/H battery, brand new engine-body earth strap - but the starter is still agonisingly, pathetically slow.
Anything else I can try? (Going to put the old starter back on next in case I bought a dud.)
The original starter motor became progressively slower over several weeks until it finally would not start at all...
Ducato Multijet 2.3 2007.

 

[CamperVanBeethoven]

I think I've tried everything: brand new starter, brand new 100A/H battery, brand new engine-body earth strap - but the starter is still agonisingly, pathetically slow.
Anything else I can try? (Going to put the old starter back on next in case I bought a dud.)
The original starter motor became progressively slower over several weeks until it finally would not start at all...
Ducato Multijet 2.3 2007.

Any mechanic out there ever bought a dud starter? (It is a cheap ebay one)

 

[Communicator]

You have tried a new body earth strap, but is the contact point on the chassis clean. When replacing the stap I recommend a smear of vaseline on the contact faces and other bare metal electrical parts. The battery earth strap is equally important, as are both battery terminal connections. Also as on a recent thread, the starter connection to the CAL4 fuse on the battery terminal board. The jump start connection point also carries the starter motor current, and sound connections there are also important.

When working on these main 12V positive connections remember to observe necessary safety precautions and procedures, otherwise you could need much more than you have already replaced.

Is your battery getting fully charged?

 

[CamperVanBeethoven]

Thanks for that!
The battery is new and fully charged.
Engine ground strap connections were bright and vaselined as suggested. I also added jump leads to boost engine earthing just in case.
Will check those battery terminal board connections. (Tried that before but they were tight enough to worry about breaking the board!)
Does the main positive cable really go to the jump start point before the starter?
The new starter sounds 'dry' and creaky to my ears. Notably different to the old one.
Should it be easy to turn the pinion with a screwdriver levered against the casing? It feels surprisingly tight to me - though I'm not sure what 'normal' is.

 

[CamperVanBeethoven]

You have tried a new body earth strap, but is the contact point on the chassis clean. When replacing the stap I recommend a smear of vaseline on the contact faces and other bare metal electrical parts. The battery earth strap is equally important, as are both battery terminal connections. Also as on a recent thread, the starter connection to the CAL4 fuse on the battery terminal board. The jump start connection point also carries the starter motor current, and sound connections there are also important.

When working on these main 12V positive connections remember to observe necessary safety precautions and procedures, otherwise you could need much more than you have already replaced.

Is your battery getting fully charged?

Oh, you asked if my battery is getting fully charged: this replacement starter is so slow to turn it won't start the engine. (Not even close)

 

[Communicator]

Thanks for that!
The battery is new and fully charged.
Engine ground strap connections were bright and vaselined as suggested. I also added jump leads to boost engine earthing just in case.
Will check those battery terminal board connections. (Tried that before but they were tight enough to worry about breaking the board!)
Does the main positive cable really go to the jump start point before the starter?
The new starter sounds 'dry' and creaky to my ears. Notably different to the old one.
Should it be easy to turn the pinion with a screwdriver levered against the casing? It feels surprisingly tight to me - though I'm not sure what 'normal' is.

See diagram included in post #8 of @ngowans current thread.

The starter motor will have some friction from bearings and brushes. Have you compared with the old one in this respect.

 

[Communicator]

Oh, you asked if my battery is getting fully charged: this replacement starter is so slow to turn it won't start the engine. (Not even close)

If worse than the original, and you still have the original.......

 

[CamperVanBeethoven]

See diagram included in post #8 of @ngowans current thread.

The starter motor will have some friction from bearings and brushes. Have you compared with the old one in this respect.

Will try that, thanks - (I've put the old one back on to double test after fitting the new battery just incase the fault was not the starter at all. It is completely dead.)
Checked the battery board connections - all bright and clean.
Am I right in thinking the big red cable from battery pos. goes straight to the starter?

 

[porta]

I’m going to state something very obvious but don’t mean to be patronising
Check Earth to body and recheck Earth body to engine…some have advised to find better earthing points, and even double up the earths as it is a well known fault
Other than that there are some, including myself, that have experienced pcb in fuse boxes that have been full of water/corroded and exhibited similar sluggish or non starts (this usually doesn’t present by themselves though)

 

[Communicator]

Will try that, thanks - (I've put the old one back on to double test after fitting the new battery just incase the fault was not the starter at all. It is completely dead.)
Checked the battery board connections - all bright and clean.
Am I right in thinking the big red cable from battery pos. goes straight to the starter?

Not according to the eLearn drawing that I directed you to, a few minutes ago.
The only relatively recent starter motor problem that I have encountered was a few years ago on my wife's Astra estate 1.7TD.
Started OK at home, no previous problems, but dead at next attempt to start. Vehicle was about 14 years old.

 

[CamperVanBeethoven]

I’m going to state something very obvious but don’t mean to be patronising
Check Earth to body and recheck Earth body to engine…some have advised to find better earthing points, and even double up the earths as it is a well known fault
Other than that there are some, including myself, that have experienced pcb in fuse boxes that have been full of water/corroded and exhibited similar sluggish or non starts (this usually doesn’t present by themselves though)

No probs, thanks!
Batt to earth clean and bright - and I've doubled up the engine to different ground points on the body with jumpleads - even after fitting the new strap.
Is the pcb in a position to interfere with the high power supply from the battery? (The switching power seems to be activating the solenoid ok)

 

[CamperVanBeethoven]

Not according to the eLearn drawing that I directed you to, a few minutes ago.
The only relatively recent starter motor problem that I have encountered was a few years ago on my wife's Astra estate 1.7TD.
Started OK at home, no previous problems, but dead at next attempt to start. Vehicle was about 14 years old.

I'll be honest - I couldn't even identify the battery on that diagram!
Wiring diagrams make as much sense to me as sheet music, I'm afraid. (none!)

 

[CamperVanBeethoven]

Not according to the eLearn drawing that I directed you to, a few minutes ago.
The only relatively recent starter motor problem that I have encountered was a few years ago on my wife's Astra estate 1.7TD.
Started OK at home, no previous problems, but dead at next attempt to start. Vehicle was about 14 years old.

Ah. If BO99 is the battery fuse/ connector plate on top of the battery (which I've already checked as you suggested) is there anything between the big red cable bolted to it and the starter motor that I can check?

 

[porta]

No probs, thanks!
Batt to earth clean and bright - and I've doubled up the engine to different ground points on the body with jumpleads - even after fitting the new strap.
Is the pcb in a position to interfere with the high power supply from the battery? (The switching power seems to be activating the solenoid ok)

Try a jumplead direct from battery to engine
The fusebox fault was interfering with starting, sluggish or non starter, but was accompanied with other faults, mainly on ‘service side’ such as fuel supply, intermittent ignition code fault…a new fusebox (and relays) cured all the faults and a quick removal of fault codes sorted the fault icon…we did, however stick an extra earth cable straight from battery to engine which was a complete pain in the proverbial…three months later and a waste of time and money wehn the beast was written off

 

[bugsymike]

If replacement starter is worse than original , sling it back to seller via eBay return as faulty.
You say it sounds dry and creaky , not good sign.
Re engine turning over, if in good order and safely switched off, you should be able to put a socket on the crank pulley and turn the engine over smoothly up to each compression, then firmly over compression then easy up to next and so on, not stiff all the way around.
If an earthing or starter lead issue, after cranking a few times, put your hand on the wires and terminals etc. to the starter area, if one is getting noticeably hot then there is a resistance there which needs sorting.
Modern diesels in good condition should start after only a few turns at most, any thing more needs investigating. If there is an underlying fault in the engine that is causing the need for "flogging" the starter for a long time , it can soon knacker a good starter , as the windings will overheat and destroy it.

 

[Communicator]

Try a jumplead direct from battery to engine
The fusebox fault was interfering with starting, sluggish or non starter, but was accompanied with other faults, mainly on ‘service side’ such as fuel supply, intermittent ignition code fault…a new fusebox (and relays) cured all the faults and a quick removal of fault codes sorted the fault icon…we did, however stick an extra earth cable straight from battery to engine which was a complete pain in the proverbial…three months later and a waste of time and money wehn the beast was written off

There seems to be some confusion arising between fuseboxes. The battery fusebox, B099, carries all power coming from the battery. It is attached directly to the battery positive post. Fuse F70 (150A) on B099, supplies the engine bay fusebox (B001) which supplies ignition switch, external lights, cooling fans and other items. The main starter motor current does not pass through B001, but exits B099 through the CAL4 fuse, and connects to the starter via the jump start point (A005)

For info only, it may be possible to clean a water damaged engine bay fusebox, as there is a thread about such a repair in the Scudo section.

 

[CamperVanBeethoven]

Try a jumplead direct from battery to engine
The fusebox fault was interfering with starting, sluggish or non starter, but was accompanied with other faults, mainly on ‘service side’ such as fuel supply, intermittent ignition code fault…a new fusebox (and relays) cured all the faults and a quick removal of fault codes sorted the fault icon…we did, however stick an extra earth cable straight from battery to engine which was a complete pain in the proverbial…three months later and a waste of time and money wehn

If replacement starter is worse than original , sling it back to seller via eBay return as faulty.
You say it sounds dry and creaky , not good sign.
Re engine turning over, if in good order and safely switched off, you should be able to put a socket on the crank pulley and turn the engine over smoothly up to each compression, then firmly over compression then easy up to next and so on, not stiff all the way around.
If an earthing or starter lead issue, after cranking a few times, put your hand on the wires and terminals etc. to the starter area, if one is getting noticeably hot then there is a resistance there which needs sorting.
Modern diesels in good condition should start after only a few turns at most, any thing more needs investigating. If there is an underlying fault in the engine that is causing the need for "flogging" the starter for a long time , it can soon knacker a good starter , as the windings will overheat and destroy it.

Much appreciated, Mike.
This engine was always an easy starter.
Tried a jumplead direct from batt + to the starter terminal (in addition to the power supply) and no difference at all...

 

[CamperVanBeethoven]

There seems to be some confusion arising between fuseboxes. The battery fusebox, B099, carries all power coming from the battery. It is attached directly to the battery positive post. Fuse F70 (150A) on B099, supplies the engine bay fusebox (B001) which supplies ignition switch, external lights, cooling fans and other items. The main starter motor current does not pass through B001, but exits B099 through the CAL4 fuse, and connects to the starter via the jump start point (A005)

For info only, it may be possible to clean a water damaged engine bay fusebox, as there is a thread about such a repair in the Scudo section.

Aha! "via the jumpstart point" That's interesting! Thankyou again.

 

[bugsymike]

Aha! "via the jumpstart point" That's interesting! Thankyou again.

If safe to do so , can you take a good jump lead from the battery earth connection to the bell housing as near to starter as possible and the same from the positive side of the battery to the main starter terminal and then activate the starter.
Obviously careful that the jump leads don't fall off and short, if starter any good it should spin fast.
By the way when ever fitting a new starter I always used to test it on the floor with jump leads and a wire to activate it, but keep my boot on it, as if any good it will try to kick away with it's inertia.

 

[CamperVanBeethoven]

If safe to do so , can you take a good jump lead from the battery earth connection to the bell housing as near to starter as possible and the same from the positive side of the battery to the main starter terminal and then activate the starter.
Obviously careful that the jump leads don't fall off and short, if starter any good it should spin fast.
By the way when ever fitting a new starter I always used to test it on the floor with jump leads and a wire to activate it, but keep my boot on it, as if any good it will try to kick away with it's inertia.

If replacement starter is worse than original , sling it back to seller via eBay return as faulty.
You say it sounds dry and creaky , not good sign.
Re engine turning over, if in good order and safely switched off, you should be able to put a socket on the crank pulley and turn the engine over smoothly up to each compression, then firmly over compression then easy up to next and so on, not stiff all the way around.
If an earthing or starter lead issue, after cranking a few times, put your hand on the wires and terminals etc. to the starter area, if one is getting noticeably hot then there is a resistance there which needs sorting.
Modern diesels in good condition should start after only a few turns at most, any thing more needs investigating. If there is an underlying fault in the engine that is causing the need for "flogging" the starter for a long time , it can soon knacker a good starter , as the windings will overheat and destroy it.

Thankyou, Mike - this story has taken a new turn thanks to your suggestion to turn the engine manually: it is tight!
Going to start a new thread as it is a new problem altogether.