General Acouple of issues with 1.2 Easy. Normal?

[NewtoPandas]

Well, I've had the Panda for a while, reached 300 miles now and I've kept the revs under 3000 and will continue to do so until it gets to 1000 miles. I've noticed a couple of things and I don't know if it's normal or not. The most obvious thing is that when I hold the revs, ready to pull away from a standstill in 1st gear, as I let the clutch up to move off, the revs drop for a second before returning to normal as I drive away. Is this a normal feature of the 1.2 engine, or have I got a fault? All is well otherwise, apart from a slightly jerky ride when in 4th or 5th at around 30 to 40mph. Sounds vague I know, but it's very smooth most of the time, so when it starts to jerk a bit it's very noticeable. I can get rid of it by applying more throttle or selecting a lower gear, but it's not due to low revs, it shouldn't be trying to stall or anything like that when the revs are between 1500 to 2000. Hope some of this makes sense. I just wanted to get some feedback before contacting the dealer.

 

[Goudrons]

They don't like you to apply much rpm to pull away, the ecu does it for you.

It's something a lot of owners have complained about, a lot of modern cars have an anti stall system when pulling away, so they detect the movement of the clutch and ups the rpm to save it stalling, it also helps smooth out gear changes as it will of course, rise the rpm a little everytime you dip and release the clutch.

You can hear/watch it do this just by sitting there with the brake off operating the clutch pedal at idle.

Fiat seem to have used a simple (cheap) system and it seems it has caused a few headaches, mainly with (older) drivers that are not used to it.
(my lad can't pull away in an older car that doesn't do this!)

As the ecu ups the rpm and you are also applying some throttle and it bogs down a little because of this, it doesn't seem to realise you are inputting the pedal (and return fueling control back to you) until you are down the road a little and it's finished "helping".

Try allowing the ecu to get you just off the line before applying the throttle pedal, lift the clutch and feel the rpms rise, as it pulls off then apply the gas.

It becomes quite easy to master after a while and it'll even do it on very steep hills without problem.

As for your other issue, it does rather sound it's being flogged and stuttering in too high a gear, particularly as you say, changing down or speeding up stops it.
You might be a little too easy on the throttle trying to "run in" the engine.

 

[NewtoPandas]

They don't like you to apply much rpm to pull away, the ecu does it for you.

It's something a lot of owners have complained about, a lot of modern cars have an anti stall system when pulling away, so they detect the movement of the clutch and ups the rpm to save it stalling, it also helps smooth out gear changes as it will of course, rise the rpm a little everytime you dip and release the clutch.

You can hear/watch it do this just by sitting there with the brake off operating the clutch pedal at idle.

Fiat seem to have used a simple (cheap) system and it seems it has caused a few headaches, mainly with (older) drivers that are not used to it.
(my lad can't pull away in an older car that doesn't do this!)

As the ecu ups the rpm and you are also applying some throttle and it bogs down a little because of this, it doesn't seem to realise you are inputting the pedal (and return fueling control back to you) until you are down the road a little and it's finished "helping".

Try allowing the ecu to get you just off the line before applying the throttle pedal, lift the clutch and feel the rpms rise, as it pulls off then apply the gas.

It becomes quite easy to master after a while and it'll even do it on very steep hills without problem.

As for your other issue, it does rather sound it's being flogged and stuttering in too high a gear, particularly as you say, changing down or speeding up stops it.
You might be a little too easy on the throttle trying to "run in" the engine.

Many thanks for the info, so it seems the car is fine and I just need to adapt my driving style. That's okay, I'll practice letting the ecu do it's thing. A bit weird though after driving so many cars the same way over the years, needing to amend my driving habits. I must be getting old!

At the rate we are going, in 15 years time all the new cars will be driving themselves. Scary thought...

 

[Goudrons]

Most new cars do it these days, they'll pull away without any throttle input.

My lad can't understand why the C2 he has doesn't do it and gets the right hump when it stalls.
After 15 professional lessons in a new Mini he'd never been taught to set the rpm and bite point to pull off, his intrustor (at the time) said why bother, just lift the clutch as modern cars do it for you!

Some cars are better than others at it, Fiats attempt with the 1.2 seems to cause a bit of lag if you input too much pedal yourself, it's obviously a rather crude system.
It effects 1.2's from around Feb 2014.

It's almost like you have control of the air intake and it has control of the fuel, the two don't match because your foot is mashed in the carpet so it bogs until it all equals up and you lurch forward.

I also get the odd lurch changing down without any brake, as it also increases the rpm then (with the foot brake on it won't do it)

Once you find the point in the clutch action that causes the rpm increase, it's easy to master, just slip away on the increased rpm and half a second later hit the gas pedal just before the rpms drop again.

 

[gar074]

It's presumably the same software that causes the TA to bog down after a gearchange. It's frustrating that the engine management system hesitates for at least a second before responding to throttle inputs when you're ragging it up through the gears. The Panda would be a lot more spiritely in traffic if it had an instant throttle response, like Fiats of old (fond memories of sundry go-kart-like 127s, Unos and old-style Pandas).

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

Well, I've had the Panda for a while, reached 300 miles now and I've kept the revs under 3000 and will continue to do so until it gets to 1000 miles.

Why? Just drive it normally throughout the rev range, without hammering it, and you'll be bedding the engine in better than doing what you're currently doing!

 

[varesecrazy]

Why? Just drive it normally throughout the rev range, without hammering it, and you'll be bedding the engine in better than doing what you're currently doing!

Correct.
always warm engine thoroughly ,
then use it's full potential

TBH - lucky you've a 4 cylinder 1.2,

as the TwinAir needs "bedding in" ,or there's a fair chance of expensive oil consumption issues,

Charlie - Oxford

 

[NewtoPandas]

Why? Just drive it normally throughout the rev range, without hammering it, and you'll be bedding the engine in better than doing what you're currently doing!

Thanks for the tip. I've been looking forward to driving it normally. I 'm fairly gentle with my cars anyway, after all the more revs you use, the more the mpg drops. But I did feel a bit of a plank cruising along the motorway last weekend on a run at 65mph, being overtaken by everything! (Mind you I did go past a brand new 65 plate Ford Focus ST which was pootling along at about 50mph, obviously running in the new engine.) I wanted to just drive at 70-75mph as normal like everyone else. The 1.2 Panda I test drove was quite nippy on a dual carriageway road, so I know what the engine can do. It's done over 350 miles now so I'll just drive as I normally do.

I was practising the clutch/ revs input thing on a quiet road and managed to stall the car by lifting the clutch a bit quick, as you would do if pulling out into a small gap on a roundabout. It seems that in that case you need to input some revs as well, but then it pauses for a split second while sorting itself out, all of which could be dangerous at busy junctions or roundabouts. I'm sure I'll get used to it, but I still don't see what's the point of it? Not sure it's progress! It's like new cars all have 'fly by wire' throttles now. Supposedly it's progress, but I used to deliver parcels and one day the throttle sensor thing on my company Ford Transit van packed up. So the engine was running, press the accelerator pedal and nothing happens! Old Ford's I had in the past, Capris, Sierras, etc didn't have all that kit. Just a real throttle cable, but then again they could snap.

I'm turning into a moaning old fart, just call me Victor Meldrew!!!

 

[Panda 4x4 TA Antarctica]

It's presumably the same software that causes the TA to bog down after a gearchange. It's frustrating that the engine management system hesitates for at least a second before responding to throttle inputs when you're ragging it up through the gears. The Panda would be a lot more spiritely in traffic if it had an instant throttle response, like Fiats of old (fond memories of sundry go-kart-like 127s, Unos and old-style Pandas).

Is this not just a touch of turbo-lag, Gar074? The TwinAir does have a touch, though it's certainly more responsive than all of the bigger turbo-diesels I've driven (and own one of!). It takes a fraction of a second to build boost, before pulling at full strength. I think it's perhaps obvious on the Panda as the turbo contributes quite a bit of the available urge?

 

[Panda 4x4 TA Antarctica]

PS - I never think about automated anti-stall or any of these newer features on cars - I think the OP perhaps will just find his own groove with his new car once he's got a few more miles under their belt!

 

[gar074]

Is this not just a touch of turbo-lag, Gar074?

No, I don't think so. With turbo lag, you'll get some power before the turbo kicks in, but this feels more like the engine management system's controlling the throttle inputs - possibly to protect the gearbox? And there's no discernible turbo lag if you let the revs drop off and then step back onto the throttle once you're in gear - it's only after gear-changes that you notice it.

It's most obvious when trying to make a rapid start from traffic lights. No matter how slick you are with the gearchange, there's a distinct pause after each change before the EMS applies the power, even with your right foot hard down to the floor. Definitely not a car for the traffic light Grand Prix!

 

[Goudrons]

there's a distinct pause after each change before the EMS applies the power, even with your right foot hard down to the floor. Definitely not a car for the traffic light Grand Prix!

I noticed this very early in ownership and it ain't turbo lag.
More like a fuel or ignition break.

You can overcome it with "flat changes".
Just keep it fuelled (keep your right foot down) when changing gear.

Not really advisable for everyday driving, but once in a while it's entertaining, particularly if it's not your car!

 

[gar074]

Top tip, Goudrons - drive it like you stole it!

 

[ExBluebird]

We're way overthinking this topic. It not an 'anti-stall' feature. Its the electronic equivalent of the idle control screw. Just drive the bloody car. ;-)

 

[Dustyjoe]

I must be the only guy in the country that has a panda that drives with no problems at all. I do nothing different in the way of driving from any other car i own. No lag, no drop in revs, not jerky, goes up hills etc .

 

[barnettgs]

• Problem: It struggles to pull away smoothly.
• Information at hand: It's an Italian car.
• Solution: Drive it like an Italian!

My 2015 car has some juddering when pulling away at the hill or from junction on slope so I have to rev it more to reduce the juddering otherwise it would stall or judder badly. Leaving it to ECU doesn't work for me as it will cut out anyway.

However, yesterday morning on my way to a city an hour drive away, I forgot to fill my car at my local petrol station but I had just enough fuel to go to the city anyway. Upon leaving the city my car was very low on fuel, I filled up at different branded filling station, I noticed theirs was 5p more expensive than my local's but I filled up to the brim regardlessly.

Today, I drove to a village to go to 2 shops and to my surprise, my car felt like a different car. Very smooth idling and pulling away with ease and judder has just disappeared 'almost' completely! It pulled away with not much throttle input needed as I would have needed before.

I filled up my car regularly at my local petrol station and although I didn't think much of it, I noticed that while sitting in the traffic, the engine idle wasn't smooth as if it was trying to keep up and I had to work engine harder to pull the car away.

But today is completely different!

I'm going away on a long trip tomorrow so I am going to see if it is not one-off improvement but clearly, it's down to the fuel so I'm not going back to my local filling station, I will be looking elsewhere and pay a bit more for better fuel.

 

[varesecrazy]

• Problem: It struggles to pull away smoothly.
• Information at hand: It's an Italian car.
• Solution: Drive it like an Italian!

I'm going away on a long trip tomorrow so I am going to see if it is not one-off improvement but clearly, it's down to the fuel so I'm not going back to my local filling station, I will be looking elsewhere and pay a bit more for better fuel.

TBH - I've never noticed Differences in Petrol performance since the advent of 95 RON unleaded..,

DIESEL ( Cetane) is a different matter..

Looking forward to your findings.., MPG figures too if you COULD compare..,
Charlie - Oxford

 

[barnettgs]

TBH - I've never noticed Differences in Petrol performance since the advent of 95 RON unleaded..,

DIESEL ( Cetane) is a different matter..

So was I.

Coming back from diesel, I thought all unleaded are all the same but having used a few different brands, they just aren't. I guess it's due to modern engines being very fuel-efficient therefore probably more sensitive.

By the way, it was doing already great 56-57mpg.

 

[Mercky]

I changed petrol station about a month ago, had been using the same one local to me pretty much since my twinair was new, it tends to be a little cheaper then others and was also convenient however I noticed a discernible difference with the new station - car is much smoother and less grumbly, no octane difference just a different oil company.

 

[barnettgs]

Got back last night from almost 200 miles round trip with an overnight stay.

So yes, it wasn't one off improvement. It feels more punchy when pulling from low rev and was smooth throughout to upper rev range whereas previously, it felt a bit rough. Also better on hills too.

All these improvements are minor though but the most noticable improvement is the gearchange being smooth, it has no longer 'awkard' jerk when changing the gear especially on the first 3 gears with higher rev.

For 6 months, I always found the gearchange/rev combination a bit awkard to use since I always had to push the throttle to fill the missing 'gap' in rev left by ECU while changing up. I thought it was being me so used to driving the same diesel Mondeo for almost 11 years and that I have to get used to the petrol version.

But that wasn't the case, I didn't need to input the throttle while I changed up. As I observed why I didn't need to input the throttle as I have always done before, while changing the gear I saw that the rev throttle doesn't drop down (or not too quickly) therefore the gearchange is smooth.

So I have to say I'm pleased surprised as I thought it was this naggling clutch issue with Panda 1.2 which I was thinking of bringing it up with dealer on the first service.

I left home with 57 mpg average reading from previous 45 miles (A-main and rural roads) and returned home last night with 58.7mpg on a mix of main A road and motorway. Main A road is more kind to MPG than it is with motorway where I have seen the average reading dipped to just below 57 on the way back.